Post #199,744
3/21/05 12:58:14 PM
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Again, how do you know
who is lying? The people who say she is brain-dead, or the people who say she is interacting with the environment?
--
And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings?
-- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
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Post #199,745
3/21/05 1:19:16 PM
3/21/05 1:21:09 PM
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You need to define your terms.
The brain isn't a single organ. It has separate, interconnected parts with different functions. The most important parts in this case are the cerebrum and [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex|cerebral cortex], the cerebellum, and the brain stem.
The cerebellum and the brain stem control reflexes and things like keeping your various muscles and organs working. Many things that happen without thinking.
The cerebrum and cerebral cortex controls thought, memory, language, and all of the voluntary responses. It processes sensory information.
There is no mystery that her cerebrum suffered major damage. There is no mystery that that part of the brain controls the parts of us that make us human. There is no mystery that PET scans, etc., are not going to give any more information about the condition of her cerebrum than was known years ago. It can't be regenerated. It's [link|http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html#qanda|gone]. Therapy was tried. There is no therapy that will regrow her brain.
Yes, she is brain dead in the sense that she has no functioning cerebral cortex. Is her brain stem dead? No. Is her cerebellum dead? No.
Her body is not interacting with its enviroment in any way that she can control. Her cycles and muscle movements are reflexive and controlled by her cerebellum and brain stem. She, as a human being, died 15 years ago, IMHO. And most importantly, many witnesses say that she said she would not want to be kept alive like this, and a court agreed.
People who see her motions and believe they indicate volition and consciousness are mistaken.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,773
3/21/05 2:41:19 PM
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There was a picture of her in this morning's papers up here
released to the press by her parents. She looks pretty good in it... but (cynic that I am) I couldn't help but note that her hands had been cropped out of the shot.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #199,835
3/21/05 5:11:18 PM
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So she's a pretty corpse
BFD, she's still a corpse. She just hasn't fallen over yet.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,896
3/22/05 2:59:11 AM
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point.missed()
They didn't show her hands because what many years of being bedridden in such a way does to them isn't pretty; the same for her legs and ankles.
The picture had also been pretty clearly retouched, prolly to clean up her skin tone a bit.
Overall, we're talking real serious propaganda ploy. I'm wondering if it's been published as widely down there; it was on the front page of every major paper I saw today (globe, star, post) and even in the local paper (albeit in black and white in the whig).
I feel very sorry for her parents; I can't imagine what it would be like if something like that were to happen to one of my kids... at least, I really don't want to. Autism is bad enough; at least there's the possibility that my son will be able to grow up to take care of himself, and while communication can be difficult sometimes, at least it's possible and there's definitely a person there to talk to. However, I think they're deluding themselves as to what's going to happen with their daughter. If they succeed, her body could well outlive them...
The idea that her husband is a louse for meeting someone else and moving on five years after the fact is also completely lame imho. They need to take a cue from him, say goodbye, and move on with their lives as well.
I can't believe that this has been going on since 1990; a tragedy drawn out over a decade and a half. The fact that a particular political community is using this to rally their base (well, the part that's not part of the bloated plutocracy, at least) is disgusting, and represents the most callous use of human sorrow for political gain that I've seen in a long time.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #199,949
3/22/05 2:18:44 PM
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No, I got it
I was agreeing with you.
Basically, the cerebrum is gone and the only thing left functioning is the primitive lizard brain. So what you're seeing is the reactions of a large pale iguana minus the feeding instinct.
Not pretty at all.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #199,954
3/22/05 2:28:07 PM
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That's harsh
I dont disagree with you, but at the center of this circus are two parents who are loosing their daughter. A pale iguana? Have a little compassion! My heart breaks for her family.
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Post #199,958
3/22/05 2:56:57 PM
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They lost her 15 years ago...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #199,960
3/22/05 3:11:58 PM
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They are still in 'denial'
As far as THEY are concerned, they haven't 'lost' her yet.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #199,966
3/22/05 3:29:37 PM
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Re: They are still in 'denial'
That's right. Put yourself in their shoes. If this was your child, would you want to give up hope? If your child were breathing, wouldnt you still consider her alive? It doesnt matter that she's been in her current condition for 15 years. It's still their daughter and they're watching her die. Not only do they have to deal with the loss of their child, but they also have to grieve the loss of their fantasy that she will recover. AND they have to do it with the whole world watching.
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Post #199,973
3/22/05 3:59:19 PM
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I can't see the basis of their hope
Nobody can live without hope. However, I regard the brain as the basis of a person and if vital sections are dead, they will never reheal and are gone forever. The impossible can happen but there is no basis for hope. For me, a CAT scan would be the incontrovertible proof and the end of the world.
Maybe I'm not subject to wishful thinking and realise that once hope is gone, you must leave and look for hope about something else.
I keep wondering whether this use of logic makes me inhuman or human, rather than animal.
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #199,991
3/22/05 4:47:10 PM
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Have you never heard "hope springs eternal"?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
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Post #199,998
3/22/05 5:01:57 PM
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Yep
And like the phrase 'no smoke without fire', doesn't stand up to reason.
Matthew Greet
But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie.
- Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
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Post #199,997
3/22/05 4:57:54 PM
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Re: I can't see the basis of their hope
No, it doesn't make you inhuman.
Just because you love someone doesn't render you incapable of realising that the best thing to do is let go.
Peter
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Post #200,005
3/22/05 6:59:58 PM
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If it were my child, i'd want to...
...1) Make sure her final wishes were honored.
2) I'd want her to go in dignity, and peace.
Nobody sees either of these things in those 'parents'.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #200,008
3/22/05 7:07:35 PM
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I would have put a pillow over their face years ago
I love my boys, but I brought them into this world and would relieve them of it, if they were in the "same" medical condition. Its the very least that I would owe them.
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
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Post #200,018
3/22/05 9:21:50 PM
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Re: They are still in 'denial'
If this was your child, would you want to give up hope?
- hope is one thing - but you have to hang hope on reality
If your child were breathing, wouldnt you still consider her alive?
- not in this condition, no
It doesnt matter that she's been in her current condition for 15 years.
- yes it does. There is no way this person is recovering. Its tough. I feel for them, but I watched my dad's wife try to drag him along and I went to battle with her to get life support withdrawn. I'm all about compassion - what sickens me is selfish cruelty.
It's still their daughter and they're watching her die.
- she died 15 years ago. At this point, their pain is self inflicted.
Not only do they have to deal with the loss of their child, but they also have to grieve the loss of their fantasy that she will recover.
- see above - self inflicted.
AND they have to do it with the whole world watching.
- that's a whole other crime and yes I believe the perpetrators deserve new lives as fast food and sanitation workers.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #200,049
3/23/05 7:02:33 AM
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Their need for therapy should supersede her wishes, then?
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Post #200,017
3/22/05 9:15:38 PM
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I have compassion
loads of it. This grandstanding of the "morally" self-righteous leaves me ill.
I'm sorry that her bio family is living in fantasy land. Now is the time for tough talk. They need to come to grips with the fact that she is gone and she's never coming back. It can't happen.
If you wanna hold out for a miracle, fine. If a miracle is going to happen, her being off life support isn't going to stop it.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #200,033
3/22/05 10:28:45 PM
3/22/05 10:29:21 PM
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I'm not sure what you saw. ~ 10 kB images.
Here's how she looked in 1990 before the heart attack (from [link|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/Tampabay/Terri_Schiavo_s_room_.shtml|here]):
[image|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/images/small/A_1_1Abefore__0319.jpg|0|Terri Schiavo in 1990|140|100]
Here's the picture that's been shown all over down here (including on the BBC web page) that's from the family video:
[image|http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/19/images/small/A_1_1Aafter_TP102_0319.jpg|0|Terri Schiavo from video|121|100]
Terri's gone. :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #199,971
3/22/05 3:45:52 PM
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No one is lying
one side is using science
the other wishful thinking
no lying is going on
I listened to an audio tape of Terry and her father
yesterday
it was clear to me she was not communicating
but her father may feel differently (he may
also be wrong)
I lost my 21 y/o niece in January after she had
been in a coma for a year
many times in the early months we thought we
were communicating with her and that she understood
but after a while either more brain damage set in or
we were just dreaming in the first place
still, my niece was dead for months, as far as I could
see, before she died
Schiavo has been dead for years
A
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Post #199,972
3/22/05 3:47:40 PM
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Condolences on your loss. :-(
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Post #199,980
3/22/05 4:25:07 PM
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:-(
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #200,055
3/23/05 7:31:23 AM
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Re: No one is lying
Regrets, too on your experience - the younger the harder.
As regards communicating - I only hazily recall a fad of a few years back re autistic (or similar) children. A group coalesced around a claim that certain 'auditors' (it was some other title) could elicit rather lengthy 'communications' from the subjects. I think.. via a keyboard 'facilitated' by these 'trained' emissaries (?)
Think Ouija.. the debunking was elegant, but I've forgotten too much of the story even to Google for the details. Believe PBS did an hour on this, at the time.
As with the witchhunt of childcare workers portrayed as Satanists, also via highly manipulative 'therapist'-inculcators -- we should never lose sight of the fact of the dense thread of superstition extant in Murican culture. It complements the antiintellectualism, love for Disneyland fantasies (and maybe the xenophobia is in there too, orthogonally?)
Scientology demonstrates the hi-tech generic version, complete with algorithm$. Created virtually "on a bet". Desire - never mind if the object is near-impossible - appears to befog discrimination, often.
May we survive long enough to someday leave adolescence -
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Post #200,069
3/23/05 8:20:25 AM
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Frontline: "Prisoners of Silence." October 19, 1993.
[link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/programs/transcripts/1202.html|Transcript].
Cheers,
Scott.
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