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New It's the apps, stupid.
No-one in the free space has implemented a group calendaring product that's as good as Exchange. OGO, Contact, PHPGroupware - none of these are even close.

Groupwise ain't it, because the client is arse. Outlook's a rotten mail client, but a dandy calendar and contact manager.

Evolution is definitely the client side solved, but what do you connect it to?

The desktop database space is dead once you step away from the Windows platform.

What can you suggest, for example, as a replacement for the duct tape of the office - Microsoft Access?

Filemaker might be it, but that's exactly as free as Access, to wit: not at all.

Wordprocessing is is exactly in the same state; Abiword and OpenOffice are respectively underpowered and a UI nightmare. It's a crying shame that Wordperfect for Linux got abandoned.

The reason people use Windows, Greg, is because it runs the apps that let people do real work. And you would be amazed at what people will put up with in the pursuit of that goal.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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New Who's talking about free?
If you're going to pay for Word or Access, why wouldn't you pay for iOffice (or whatever Apple calls it) and Filemaker?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Because it's inadequate.
Pages and Keynote do not provide equivalent functionality even to OpenOffice. That's not the target market.

If you're on OS X, you might as well just get Office 2004; it's somewhat nicer than the Windows version. Filemaker and Access are more-or-less equivalent, with Filemaker having something of a lower suck-quotient.

I thought that an example taken from a Samba list would imply a discussion about functionality on free platforms.


Peter
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New group calendering sux in office as well
how many meetings do you show up to and the room is double booked. You go back to the desktop and each clearly shows a single booking with no conflicts. This is a daily occurance and no its not a user issue, its the crap they use
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Rubbish, Box.
I adminned Exchange 5.5 for 5 years and although there's a long, long list of things that's wrong with it, the sort of nonsense you're discussing doesn't happen.

If people double-book a room, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that it's because some muppet put the booking into their local calendar, not the group or resource calendar.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New nice try but not the case, $MS themselves cant figger it out
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Too little info to make a judgement
Either way.

But in my case, appointments seem to come and go without rhyme or reason.
The boss' secretary deals with HELL, trying figure it out.
Help desk is no help.
Note: She works for the CTO, he OWNS the help desk, they try to help, they have as much external support (MS, consulting,etc) as required, but they just can't seem to resolve it.

We have full time Windows server admin, not sure of his qualification, but he keeps a rather complex series of AD Servers / domains / file and print servers, Exchange server, 100s of users, humming along, along with 4 full time desktop support people of varying levels of expertise.

Blech.

Maybe you are just smarter than everyone, you figured out all the problems, you fixed them or worked around them.

In our case, it is a daily struggle.
New Not where I work
I work for a big company with dedicated admins and we find many times the the same conference is double booked and everyone is booking it on the resource calendar.
New Shrug
Y'all need to install Exchange proper, then. Works Here and Works All The Time.

I've never, not once, seen Exchange screw up an appointment. It's got disaster recovery procedures from hell, performance issues out the wazoo, and a licensing scheme that Don Corleone would be proud of, but it does actually get appointments right.


And anyway, my anecdotal evidence > your anecdotal evidence cuz I spent five and a bit years looking after this crap and getting to know it rather better than I'd have hoped.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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New I hear a business opportunity calling you. :-)
New Never, ever again :-)
The torment of administrating Exchange is something I don't wish to re-visit in this lifetime.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New That really says it all
The torment of administrating Exchange is something I don't wish to re-visit in this lifetime.

I call bullshit on everything else you said concerning it getting something right.

Anything right!

Again and again you state about the horrible pieces, and the reasons you would never go back to dealing with it.

Yet you also state a particular piece simply works, and it is the fault of the people who installed it, the way it was installed, etc.

WHICH IS THE STANDARD EXCUSE OF ANYONE DEFENDING A BIT OF MS CRAP!

Let me state it a different way:

You adminned something for years, you got to know its ins and outs. It was your baby. Of course it worked, you spent blood sweat and tears on it.

BUT YOU NEVER WOULD WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!

Which means, there was a time in your life that it was worth it to suffer, and as far as you are concerned, anyone who has a mis-behaving calendar simply hasn't suffered enough.

Which in turn tells me you fell into a bit of Stockholm Syndrome with this particular package.
New Re: That really says it all
I call bullshit on everything else you said concerning it getting something right.

Why? It does.
Again and again you state about the horrible pieces, and the reasons you would never go back to dealing with it.

Yes, because things are never all perfect or all crap.
Yet you also state a particular piece simply works, and it is the fault of the people who installed it, the way it was installed, etc.

Yes. And?
WHICH IS THE STANDARD EXCUSE OF ANYONE DEFENDING A BIT OF MS CRAP!

Whatever. Show me an alternative to Exchange that has a client that isn't Groupwise. I worked with an Exchange setup for 5 years that worked as advertised. It was a horrible thing to manage, and if it broke it was hell on earth to fix, but when it was up and running, it was working. Properly.
You adminned something for years, you got to know its ins and outs. It was your baby. Of course it worked, you spent blood sweat and tears on it.

Not really; We followed the instructions; when installed properly, it works. *surprise*

And it was hardly my "baby". Remember, for most people, work is just that; work. I wouldn't do Exchange if I wasn't paid for it.
BUT YOU NEVER WOULD WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!

I would never want to do that, or any other sysadmin task again. It's a crappy job with little to no reward, it earns the derision and ire of your colleagues, and there's no end product to show for it. My current role is only about a hundred times more rewarding than that, if only a little more lucrative.
Which means, there was a time in your life that it was worth it to suffer, and as far as you are concerned, anyone who has a mis-behaving calendar simply hasn't suffered enough.

And that's just nonsense, Barry. I connect to an Exchange server every day, at work; dozens of meetings a day are scheduled with it; it doesn't foul up. That doesn't make it perfect, and I've been at pains in this thread to point that out. However, the rotten, stinking, awful, horrible truth is that there is no real alternative in that space to Exchange. Well, there is; it's Groupwise, which is just as horrible but in different ways. Both are lock-in closed-source payware EVUL.
Which in turn tells me you fell into a bit of Stockholm Syndrome with this particular package.

No, it means I don't have the "OMFG MICRO$HAFT SUXXORS" attitude that some people seem to have.

Exchange is a dreadful thing; it uses a variant of the MS-SQL engine to store the mail and as a result ends up (as at 5.5) implementing a subset of AD to do the security, it's horrible to manage (one edits a string registry key to add a disclaimer to outgoing mail. In RTF. Not fun), it's slow, it's fragile, it's non-standards-compliant, it's a resource hog.

All that, and it works, too.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Fragile
Ok, the world of applications is not black and white,
there are levels of issues / problems / amounts of crap
that we are willing to put up with.

Don't bother tossing out the "evul payware" red herring,
I don't mind paying for software. I've got recurring
licensing cost for things like Oracle, Syncsort,
various MF<->Linux integration utilities,etc, and I
consider them well worth it.

There is no way that an individual who has experienced
no problems with a individual application can dismiss other
people experiencing problems. Just because your specific
implementation worked does not means others will.

Your:

And anyway, my anecdotal evidence > your anecdotal evidence
cuz I spent five and a bit years looking after this crap and
getting to know it rather better than I'd have hoped.


is just as meaningless. You weren't in OUR installations,
seing OUR domain and ADS setup, dealing with OUR networks,
our delegation schemes, our mailbags (what a horrible concept),
our network issues, our (insert the next variable that MS
Exchange seems to trip over), etc, etc, etc.

You have a specific LACK of experience, and then you state that
because YOU didn't experience it, other CAN'T experience it.

That's just plain stupid. Sorry. It is. It certainly isn't
logical.

If your point is that Exchange is the best that is out
there, at least for the business realities of the moment,
I won't argue. It probably is, for now. That's life.

But don't discount the pain involved in dealing with it.
There is a tipping point, it may or may not be reached,
we may or may not go to an alternative some day.

But you defending the indefensable, ie: it is fragile,
deal with it, makes you nothing more than an MS apologist.

When you you wave off real problems, saying YOU never saw
them therefor they don't happen, makes you someone to
not to trust, someone with an agenda, someone who lives in
the land of marketing, not reality.


I hope I know you better than that, and that you really don't
think that way, at least not usually.

But maybe I don't, and you do.
New We're talking past each other here.
Box went from "our Exchange setup misbehaves" to "group calendaring in Office sux".

THAT is what I was objecting to.

The anti-MS zealotry is no better than the MS apologia (or the Linux apologia and pro-MS zealotry, come to that; the toast is buttered on both sides).


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
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New Oy you!
our $shitta stinks and here $childprocShitta is why. Fair statement, and no I have not looked for alternatives as I have no impact on that side of the house.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Peter, that's BS and you should know it
You have had 3 separate reports of Exchange being borked in the same way, and in at least 2 cases knowledge that it was being escalated as far as the company knew how. (In at least one case, Microsoft tried to figure it out and failed.) But you're saying that what is described can't be happening because it didn't happen to you when you did things properly.

BS.

What this means to me is that there is some bug in Exchange that under some circumstances causes double-booking to become a real issue. You didn't encounter that. Fine. I believe you. All that that means is that you didn't encounter that. You have no idea what triggers the misbehaviour, or whether you could solve it if it happened to you. You have no idea whether your avoiding it was due to some step you did right that they did wrong, or due to blind luck that your setup didn't trigger the bug. You know none of this because you've not seen the problem.

So you proceed to compliment yourself and blame the victims, with zero evidence.

But, for at least 3 people here, the fact is that Exchange does not book rooms properly. It double-books. It therefore is not going to be perceived as reliable.

If that experience is widespread, then Exchange could be very vulnerable to an alternative (any alternative) that solves the same problem and doesn't give bad results for as many people.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New When was the last time you really saw...
A Real, Installation of Groupwise?

When was the lst time you admin'd a Multi-PO/Multi-Company well maintained GroupWise system?

What is the upper limit of users per PO with Exchange? GroupWise is in the 10's of thousands

What amount of flexibility to move users does Exchange have? GroupWise can and does do it while the user is using their GW account.

There is no limit to the number of resources you can have in a GroupWise system... Even Identically Named Object if need be.

How many Objects can have the same name in Exchange... err or even ADS? eDir and GroupWise... as many as you want... IN THE SAME TREE as long as they are in different context branches.

I could go on.

--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"]
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
New He wasn't talking about the Groupwise *back*-end...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Is that your subtle way of saying...
that it excretes effectively on its users?

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New A real installation of Groupwise?

I'm using one right now...

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New What version?
Six-Pack or later?

WebAccess, how is it holding out? Can't get to archives yet?
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"]
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
New GroupWise Version 6.5.1

It's a little bit slow and a lot ugly, but it's getting the job done.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Drop-in replacements for Exchange Server . . .
. . reviewed over at [link|http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/02/11/07FEexchange_1.html?s=feature|InfoWorld]. Their primary requirement was the client's not be changed. Of course none of the systems is free, but they're all less than Exchange.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Interesting omission.
Groupwise.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Yes, that is.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Miltary Intelligence"]
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
New Novell's new entry: Hula
[link|http://news.com.com/Novell+tunes+in+open-source+server+software/2100-7346_3-5577193.html?tag=nl|http://news.com.com/...77193.html?tag=nl]

Novell on Tuesday launched a new open-source software project called Hula for servers handling e-mail, calendars and contact lists.

Hula is based on 200,000 lines of software from Novell's NetMail project, Chief Executive Jack Messman said during a keynote address at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Here's the key point from that
Finally, open source\ufffds biggest problem in many enterprises isn\ufffdt technical at all; it\ufffds business-oriented: Many companies will be leery about building a critical resource such as e-mail on a platform with no support-contract safety net. Things will work fine as long as your Linux administrator is happy, but should he or she quit, the company will be left without an immediate recourse.
IOW make sure your employees all know they're replaceable. It's better to be at the mercy of Microsoft, than the guy you just screwed out of his weekend with your poor planning.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Expand Edited by drewk Feb. 16, 2005, 11:52:11 PM EST
Expand Edited by drewk Feb. 17, 2005, 12:01:07 AM EST
     Why does Windows still SUCK? - (folkert) - (28)
         It's the apps, stupid. - (pwhysall) - (27)
             Who's talking about free? - (admin) - (1)
                 Because it's inadequate. - (pwhysall)
             group calendering sux in office as well - (daemon) - (13)
                 Rubbish, Box. - (pwhysall) - (12)
                     nice try but not the case, $MS themselves cant figger it out -NT - (daemon)
                     Too little info to make a judgement - (broomberg)
                     Not where I work - (bluke) - (9)
                         Shrug - (pwhysall) - (8)
                             I hear a business opportunity calling you. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                 Never, ever again :-) - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                     That really says it all - (broomberg) - (4)
                                         Re: That really says it all - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                             Fragile - (broomberg) - (2)
                                                 We're talking past each other here. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                     Oy you! - (daemon)
                             Peter, that's BS and you should know it - (ben_tilly)
             When was the last time you really saw... - (folkert) - (5)
                 He wasn't talking about the Groupwise *back*-end... -NT - (admin) - (1)
                     Is that your subtle way of saying... - (ben_tilly)
                 A real installation of Groupwise? - (ubernostrum) - (2)
                     What version? - (folkert) - (1)
                         GroupWise Version 6.5.1 - (ubernostrum)
             Drop-in replacements for Exchange Server . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 Interesting omission. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                     Yes, that is. -NT - (folkert)
                 Novell's new entry: Hula - (admin)
                 Here's the key point from that - (drewk)

Hello, boys and girls, this is your old pal Stinky Wizzleteats!
92 ms