Post #193,927
2/10/05 4:16:00 AM
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Ummm , why . . .
. . waste the time. Every psychological study I've ever looked at was flawed almost beyond reason (or well beyond that) often stating a conclusion opposite from what data clearly showed. For the last couple decades I've simply written off as "the new astrology" anything that comes out of the "science" of psychobabble.
Actually, I've met a few astrologers who far more deserve my respect than most of the many psychologists I've met (most of whom were loony to start with). A good astrologer, like a good tarot reader, pays little attention to the "science" or "mathematics", but uses the vehicle as a framework to guide the mind onto unfamiliar paths where it may discover somthing.
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Post #193,931
2/10/05 4:58:35 AM
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"good astrologer"
*snort*
Peter
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Post #193,936
2/10/05 7:29:15 AM
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Don't laugh. They exist. I've met some.
Good astrologers are people with good intuition about other people, for whom astrology is a crutch to let them express insights that they otherwise couldn't.
The astrology may be bunk, but what they have to say about you isn't.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #193,937
2/10/05 7:38:04 AM
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I'll reserve judgement, then...
...until I've got some anecdotal evidence of my own.
Until then...
*snort*
Peter
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Post #193,942
2/10/05 8:42:22 AM
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Interesting "reserve"
It looks all white and powdery.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #193,993
2/10/05 1:27:16 PM
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A fun one with a card reader.
(a good card reader is the same as a good astrologer - just a different tool)
I talked to a schoolteacher at a party who said she attended a retreat for teachers where a card reader was popular with the ladies. Her friends kept bugging her to have a reading.
She explained to them how it was all bunk and she didn't believe in it, so there was no sense to her having a reading. Finally, just to quiet her friends, she agreed to have a reading done.
She said she sat down and he spread out his cards and looked at them for a while. Then he said, "Well, the first thing you need to do is stop messing around with the guys at work". She said she didn't know what else he said because that hit so hard she didn't hear a word of it.
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Post #194,077
2/10/05 11:06:16 PM
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Seconded. Again.
I think you've phrased the 'talent' about as well as anyone has, usually in much longer sentences.
I've mentioned my experience with one (though the astrology aspect wasn't our only connection, as friends). Backgrounds of such persons are also apt to be as varied as imaginable - Bennett had a math degree and also passed the Bar, but never 'practised'. He bloody-well knew 'the scientific method', what 'evidence is' and is not; yada.
I also think it is [*]near-impossible for us ordinary folk to 'imagine' a talent/capability such as this in others; it demands an acute ability to pay Attention to people's overt and covert expressions, as well as to Listen (as well as any shrink is supposed-to) and then it requires ___ that insight for which the word isn't at all revelatory.
Most puzzling of all (por moi, anyway) was observing that - however we pop-ularly deprecate the 'planetary math' as some sort of crutch or artifice - it appeared to me that the accuracy of birth time and location was essential to making some of the more startlingly-accurate 'deductions'. All I knew was: It Fucking Worked.. byanyname.
We 'Know' fucking-little about our inner machinations, despite all the published ego-exercises. Just look at our infantile 'religions'! purportedly "explaining the universe". In baby-talk.. which many of us Believe.
goo goo google, da da
That notions of 'astrology' would grate against the engrained Puritan, left-over Victorian sensibilities of these reactionary times -- is a hoot needing no Predictive abilities at all.
moi
[*] William Blake said it best,
~as I recall: From possession of a second or a third sense - it is impossible to conceive of a fourth.
I See.. I See via orbital depleneration - -
a village idiot juggling a kiloton of fissionable material;
his nickname is, Butterfingers ...
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Post #194,306
2/11/05 11:02:37 PM
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So, a good astrologer == a psychologist, with props.
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #194,307
2/11/05 11:22:47 PM
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Not so much props . . .
. . as guides off the beaten path. Both astrological symbology and tarot cards provide a vast selection of complex associations that won't ever be in the same order as before. The mind has to try to reconcile these associations and will be open to ideas and may come up with surprising things as it does so.
Particularly the tarot, while each card carries complex meanings and they all fit into a systematic structure, the sturcture can't actually be systemized completely. Aleister Crowley tried damned hard and admited failure. This guarantees fresh new and different associations among complex ideas every time.
The bad card reader and the bad astrologer are both convinced the tools constitute a rigid structure that must be analyzed precicely in accordance with a set of rules. They completely miss the point.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #194,308
2/11/05 11:26:06 PM
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Sounds like the I Ching, too.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #194,315
2/12/05 12:35:20 AM
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No doubt.
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Post #194,311
2/12/05 12:03:01 AM
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so rosarche tests are "props?"
they are simply indicators and the "interpretation" can vary from good to bad shrinks and other aiders and abettors. Take a person who has a set of lips that look like a mepps number 7 treble hook and lure would not be out of place and say " I bet you are a pisces" 8 out of ten times you would be right. Its not science, its observation of comparisons over the centuries. Some are better at it than others. I do not claim to know astrology but fish lips are fish lips.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
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Post #193,940
2/10/05 8:41:11 AM
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Because it was on /.?
And nobody there was noticing the problem?
Seriously, I occasionally look at psychological results because sometimes it is worthwhile. For instance I've found the concept of "cognitive dissonance" to be very valuable. However I'll freely admit that there seems to be a lot more chaff than wheat.
As a point of random amusement, multiple studies have shown that psychologists are worse than average at predicting the actual behaviour of actual humans.
And here's a theory about why people become psychologists. Lots of people enter college knowing that they have some personal problems, and take a psychology course to see if they can figure it out. For some it helps a bit but their problems are more complex than what that course covered, so they take another. And another. And then, when they've finally figured out their problem, they think, "What am I going to major in? Well I've got all of this psychology already..."
This was my uncle's theory. And he should know, he had a PhD in psychology. Furthermore I have no doubt that it was a self-description.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #193,948
2/10/05 9:40:32 AM
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I once had a professor
in a psych class who said people have no business becoming a psychotherapist unless they has been in analysis themselves.
Everyone in the "helping professions" (nurses, policemen, clergy, etc) likely got into the field because of some unresolved issues. It's their way of getting a need met.
****************
"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."
djmoou85@sbcglobal.net
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Post #194,078
2/10/05 11:17:07 PM
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Indeed
I've yet to meet a 'psych worker' whose need was not evident. This doe not deprecate the occasional ability to assist others, though I deem it laughable that such ministrations could be called 'soft' or much else to do with the scientific method. A mere appellation like that other handle, I'm a Professional!
(I profess to know things)
Priests serve the same purpose for a wider, less well-heeled audience. Yet things still go bump in the night. In both cases.
It's tough being an only partially-sentient homo sap, especially with that nasty reptile brain so often breaking the pi\ufffdata long before.. the party's even gotten good.
:-\ufffd
Ashton
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