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New On the same topic, sort of.

From G.K. Chesterton's defense of Christianity in The Everlasting Man, on contemporary critics of the faith (written in 1925):

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They will suddenly turn round and revile the Church for not having prevented the War, which they themselves did not want to prevent; and which nobody had ever professed to be able to prevent, except some of that very school of progressive and cosmopolitan sceptics who are the chief enemies of the Church. It was the anti-clerical and agnostic world that was always prophesying the advent of universal peace; it is that world that was, or should have been, abashed and confounded by the advent of universal war. As for the general view that the Church was discredited by the War -- they might as well say that the Ark was discredited by the Flood. When the world goes wrong, it proves rather that the Church is right. The Church is justified, not because her children do not sin, but because they do.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
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Expand Edited by ubernostrum Jan. 25, 2005, 02:16:09 AM EST
New Ah.. so then
First: Welcome! Original argument is ever the Grail; so much these days is rehash of repetitive chestnuts; maybe something about attention span?

It was the anti-clerical and agnostic world that was always prophesying the advent of universal peace
Since the prelude to a change is - the wanting of something else - here we are to, instead: credit Mother Church for accurately predicting that Her Believers were Right (again) -?- Yup, it was war.

This would seem to suggest that it is Best to

Preserve the status quo (or if possible - regress, even?) lest some radical activists succeed eventually, in overturning Mother Church's Believers' propensity for launching endless wars over Which sect's God is Bigger.

I think I'll go with [link|http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html| Bertie Russell's] logic still, on this topic -- (I don't think the planet can survive another century like the previous - under such Ethical Management and its lengthy history of Conservatism fossilized thoughtlessness.

Sorry GK - but you were a Silly in 1925 and.. it doesn't scan any better in '05.
New Status quo?

The notion of Christianity as defender of the status quo is one that always makes me laugh, whether invoked by a critic or a would-be supporter; to my mind, it's about the furthest thing possible from conservatism. I think that with Christianity comes an understanding (not an acceptance, though) of human fallibility, and so wars and other man-made tragedies are not surprising, which is of course what G.K. was getting at. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be rooted out and stopped, it's simply an acknowledgement of the types of obstacles which stand in the way of doing so.

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It is, of course, very easy to argue from a hard theism to the preservation of the status quo -- whatever is, is right, because otherwise God wouldn't let it be that way. But it is equally easy to reach the same conclusion from hard atheism -- given the rules of natural selection we can conclude that whatever is, is fittest. Both of these arguments fail, however, and for the same reason: they assume that their subject matter deals only with fixed states and never with processes or changes, while in truth Christianity and evolution are both entirely about ongoing change.

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And I admire Russell's mathematical and philosophic work, but at times he reminds me of the rest of the Chesterton quote I posted:

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But these people have got into an intermediate state, have fallen into an intervening valley from which they can see neither the heights beyond nor the heights behind. They cannot get out of the penumbra of Christian controversy. They cannot be Christians and they cannot leave off being anti-Christians. Their whole atmosphere is the atmosphere of a reaction: sulks, perversity, petty criticism. They still live in the shadow of the faith and have lost the light of the faith.

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Now the best relation to our spiritual home is to be near enough to love it. But the next best is to be far enough away not to hate it. It is the contention of these pages that while the best judge of Christianity is a Christian, the next best judge would be something like a Confucian. The worst judge of all is the man now most ready with his judgments; the ill-educated Christian turning gradually into the ill-tempered agnostic, entangled in the end of a feud of which he never understood the beginning, blighted with a sort of hereditary boredom with he knows not what, and already weary of hearing what he has never heard.

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And for what it's worth, the Twentieth was, if anything, really the century of secularism trying desperately to match religion in both stature and body count.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
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New Sorry, you got atheism wrong
You're right that many atheists fall into the trap that you describe, but you're wrong about why it is wrong.

The theory of evolution is about a process of change, yes, but that rate of change generally goes faster than the environment that organisms are attempting to adapt to. Therefore most of the time, most organisms are pretty well adapted to their current environment and do not have any obvious improvements (or they would have made them).

Therefore even though evolution is a process of change, at most times it predicts that things should stay pretty much the same. And if it doesn't predict that, then there should be a good reason why things just changed.

Now clearly the impact of society and technology has gone faster than evolution, and we as a species have not caught up. But it is dangerous to shove through that hole all of our wishes that people would be different. Down that path lies a long history of bad thinking - study the history of Social Darwinism for a sample.

For the real reason why that thinking is flawed you have to understand that there are many different norms that we are dealing with, and they are not equivalent. They are not even well correlated!

Evolutionary success is entirely predicated on having lots of descendents. Period. In our society traits that are selected for include being Catholic, being on welfare, and not being particularly careful with birth control. Traits that are selected against include wanting a career (particularly for women).

This kind of success has nothing to do with success as materialistic society measures it. In fact the two are negatively correlated - someone who has raised lots of kids is unlikely to have had the time and energy to have had a stellar career.

And both those kinds of success have nothing to do with any kind of socially accepted morality. For instance a successful serial rapist might be evolutionarily very successful (though the police will try to limit his success), but certainly is not a moral exemplar.

So avoid the word "best", or if you use it, stay very aware of what standard you're measuring goodness by. Because people have a tendancy to not be very clear on the fact that best is often not very good (after you switch norms), and this leads to confusion.

Cheers,
Ben

PS Welcome. It is always nice to see a new face - particularly one who takes a novel tack on familiar topics.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong

For the sort of argument I'm describing, one's norms really don't matter; the argument runs something like this: "Evolution leads to the triumph of the fittest. Therefore the people who are on top (of society, of whatever) are the fittest. Therefore they deserve to be on top, and the status quo should be preserved." Regardless of the terms in which one measures success, those who come out ahead in that category are described as the "fittest" and the rest of the argument runs as normal.

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And it doesn't hold water mainly because it assumes that "fittest" is a static description, when in fact it is not.

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Also, when an organism evolves there never has to be a "good reason"; look at the panda's thumb for an example of this.

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--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New And there is the fallacy :-)
The assumption that those who are on top of our society are fittest evolutionarily is wrong. Evolutionarily a Donald Trump is less fit than a teenage girl with 4 kids. But you'll seldom find someone who is arguing that we should all emulate the teenager.

Secondly the "evolution implies that things shall remain as they are" argument that I mentioned only makes sense at equilibrium. But I pointed out that evolution has not had time to react to a lot of aspects of our current society, so (as I pointed out) evolution has little connection with what our society requires. (And evolution's goals differ from our societal ones.)

That argument remains true for most species, most of the time. But only because adaptation usually proceeds faster than environments change, so what is fittest now is pretty close to what everything is bred for. (Of course we're now changing our environment faster than evolution can go...)

Thirdly attempting to draw any norms from evolutionary principles is flawed at best. Evolution allows us to note, This seems to work. That doesn't mean that we want things to work like that. The result is kind of like using Machiavelli as your moral compass. There is no question that his strategies are effective. But they're not very nice.

Cheers,
Ben

PS Your reference to the Panda's thumb suggests that you've read at least some Gould. My comment about how things usually should remain as they are is why Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium says that, most of the time, things are at equilibrium. The exceptions are, of course, very important and not to be underestimated.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: And there is the fallacy :-)

Of course the assumption is wrong. But it's still been made time and time again. My point was simply to show that hard atheism using evolution as a crutch is just as easily bent to defense of the status quo (though usually it's obscured slightly in the guise of laissez-faire capitalism).

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New True
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Evangelical xians no better than everyone else - (tuberculosis) - (16)
         This is surprising? - (imric) - (6)
             Ignore - (tuberculosis)
             Pushy self righteous people who claim to know a better way - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 *shrug* - (imric) - (1)
                     Well.. the hypocrisy thing is pretty universal - (Ashton)
             The thing is - (jake123) - (1)
                 Interesting point - (JayMehaffey)
         The prescription: More of the same -NT - (ben_tilly)
         On the same topic, sort of. - (ubernostrum) - (7)
             Ah.. so then - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Status quo? - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                     Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                             And there is the fallacy :-) - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Re: And there is the fallacy :-) - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                     True -NT - (ben_tilly)

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