It's always a tough call

Post #183,232 by JayMehaffey 11/6/04 11:43:22 AM Reply	It's always a tough call Wanna get rid of that impression? Get rid of the disdain in which you use "God" and "Christian" in your statements. Phrases like "death spiral to a theocracy" aren't going to endear you to alot of folks in this country. Some will take it as it comes. About half will never want to be associated with you or your beliefs...EVER...and will vote for a schmuck to prove it. The distain was entirly in your mind. And is rather reflective of exactly what I'm talking about. My dislike is reserved for the small minority of Christians that are both radical and stupid about their beliefs. But there are far to many Christian Americans who reflexivly jump in to defend that small group, even if they disagree with them on all major issues. They percive any attack on Fundamentalists as an attack on all Christians. Same sex unions being given equal legal protection...or "I support gay marriage". Which one plays better? Which one do you think would be more (ugh...) politically correct (ouch...but I had to say it)? That is the presses fault more then anything. It was the Republicans that continously brought up that issue and cast the Democrats as supporting gay marriage. The Democrats have done everything you ask, moderating their posistion down to letting states decide and backing civil unions. But they still get hammered for being pro-gay. Just some thoughts. I think this election was more about pushing back than about selecting GW. I think the Democrats...by embracing Mike Moore and Jesse and the ACLU et al are >really< pissing off better than half of the people. It's always a tough call when your forced between taking a correct but unpopular posistion or selling out for a chance to win the election. But in the end I would rather go down fighting for what is right then cave on the major issues. Jay
Post #183,233 by daemon 11/6/04 11:45:48 AM Reply	backing, moore and aclu is fighting for what is right? 2 opportunistic assholes who never saw a buck that didnt belong to them and a good organization, perhaps thats your problem, the wheat and chaff thingy regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
Post #183,249 by bepatient 11/6/04 1:42:54 PM Reply	Wow. "death spiral into theocracy" no negative connotation there...in the same group of thoughts with other anti-christian statements. But the disdain is all in >my< head. And you need to listen to your politicians more. Its a simple phrase-ology. Same-sex union versus gay marriage. Blame it on the press if you want. I'm telling you what I think needs to be done. Your reaction leads me to think it won't be done anytime soon. And as for "selling out" versus "fighting for what is right". You go ahead and think what you want. If you think that they are right...then you will continue to have the problem that you are trying to figure out. IT is a culture gap about which you appear unwilling to learn. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #183,250 by JayMehaffey 11/6/04 1:55:10 PM Reply	Re: Wow. "death spiral into theocracy" no negative connotation there...in the same group of thoughts with other anti-christian statements. But the disdain is all in >my< head. Of course there is a huge negative connotation to theocracy, but you where the one that thought I was trying to paint all Christians with that phrase. And you need to listen to your politicians more. Its a simple phrase-ology. Same-sex union versus gay marriage. Blame it on the press if you want. I'm telling you what I think needs to be done. Your reaction leads me to think it won't be done anytime soon. Except of course they are not the same thing. Civil unions implies only a legal right, marriage implies a moral and/or religious right. There is nothing wrong with putting the best possible light on a posistion. But I won't play the game of calling things what they are not to make them sound better. And as for "selling out" versus "fighting for what is right". You go ahead and think what you want. If you think that they are right...then you will continue to have the problem that you are trying to figure out. IT is a culture gap about which you appear unwilling to learn. I understand the culture gap quite well. I'm just not sure what to do about it. I will no more cave in on gay equality today then I would on black equality 30 years go. People try to cast the issue if those two things are different (any an amazing number of african-american preachers fall into that camp) but it is the same bigotry passing as religious belief that is trying to block gay marriage now that was blocking interracial marriage then. Jay
Post #183,252 by bepatient 11/6/04 2:49:16 PM Reply	"so what" about the gay issue. Its not the problem. Quit focusing on it as the problem. Pass >civil union< legislation. You will get the equality you want. Nobody really has a problem with that. Marriage is a religious institution...SO AVOID IT. Do NOT say you support "gay marriage". Because the church's view is that it CANNOT EXIST. Do not allow wards of the state to marry same sex couples. The battle is about legal rights...keep it there. However, those fighting the battle want to take it further than that...making public spectacle of "marriage ceremony" etc. Also, you have the ACLU leaders meeting with violent criminals and in some cases (mumia comes to mind) saying that these criminals should be freed. You have democratic leadership and hollywood types associating with these causes without actually knowing anything about them (Mike Farrel comes to mind). These are free associations. The war protests ended up in some cases hijacked by these organizations. It gave the opposition ammunition to say they were driven by "communists" and other fringe elements. But its all ok becasue you are fighting for what is "right" (tm). Unfortunately for you it is only >your version< of what is right. What I am trying to tell you is that better than half of everyone else does NOT share your opinion...and for you to gain political power you are going to have to come to grips with this. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #183,259 by ben_tilly 11/6/04 6:27:52 PM Reply	Really? According to [link\|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4496265/\|polls], about half the country doesn't want civil unions of gays either. And the people who are against it are more likely to turn out at the polls than the people who are for it. Of the 11 states that just banned gay marriage, 2 of them (Georgia and Ohio) banned gay civil unions as well. As for whether marriage is a primarily religious institution, we've disagreed on this before. I think that it is not. You know why I think that, I know why you think otherwise, and we each think that the other person is wrong. That isn't about to change. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,281 by admin 11/6/04 9:31:39 PM Reply	3 of them. Read the Michigan proposal a bit more closely. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #183,290 by daemon 11/6/04 11:25:17 PM Reply	why a "civil union" and lets ignore religo marital issues If something happens to my kids and MJ (G_d forbid!) I have a true friend for many years (who would help me hide the bodies) now why could I not have a will that names him sole executor and inheritor, give him a "general" power of attourney that specifically excludes any blood relation of mine to make decisions for me while I am alive and as executor and in my will excludes my blood relatives from exercising any control over my body or assets. This relationship is not sexual, simply people I trust. Its legal and I can do this Now why cant gay people do the same? The reason is simple, they want their union to have the same tax, and social acceptance as hetrosexual marriage. Its not about rights its about acceptance, you cannot legislate morality and you cannot legislate societal acceptance either. That is the major reason for the states to get out of the marriage bidness. regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
Post #183,446 by jb4 11/8/04 9:25:46 AM Reply	So when you have your second heart attack... ...is your gay partner going to be allowed so sit vigil by your bed in the ICU? NO. Why not? Becuase "only family is allowed in the ICU". No amount of general power of attorney is going to override that bit of provincialism. And as far as having the same tax arrangements as does a married couple, why shouldn't they? (And no, I'm not accusing you, daemon, of having a gay partner. That's the "collective" you.) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #183,580 by daemon 11/8/04 5:33:02 PM Reply	sorry a general power of attourney puts you there bedside, In most General POA's medical is covered, you are the only one making decisions for the person. My friend I spoke about had one for his Granma with Alzenheimers, he called all the shots. Sure I dont mind the couple paying the marriage penalty, let them join the club. regards, daemon ps Im trying to cut down :-) on being accused that is that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
Post #183,481 by tuberculosis 11/8/04 12:51:47 PM Reply	Banning Gay Marriage (new thread) Created as new thread #183480 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=183480\|Banning Gay Marriage] "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #183,262 by Andrew Grygus 11/6/04 6:38:05 PM Reply	The gay civil union issue is important . . . . . because when all states have banned gay mariage, the Republicans won't be able to use it any more to bring out the "moralists" vote - but they'll be able to run the thing all over again with the civil union issue. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #183,300 by drewk 11/7/04 12:33:18 AM Reply	That's exactly the problem Civil unions implies only a legal right, marriage implies a moral and/or religious right. It certainly does. That's why no one should try to get a gay marriage recognized by the sate. Marriage is a moral/religious concept. Of course, that also means that straight marriage shouldn't be recognized by the sate. You going to try to make that argument? You think maybe someone could get elected doing it? That's what Bill is saying. You may be right, but you can't get elected saying it. More than half the population likes their state-sanctified religious ceremony. If you argue in favor of gay marriage, they can't argue against you without saying their own marriage shouldn't be recognized by the state. So yes, gay marriage does threaten straight marriage. The difference is that while Kerry (and other democrats) are articulating (supporting) the legal rights issue, Bush (and other republicans) are articulating (opposing) the moral rights issue. While they may agree with each other on the two issues, the choice of which one to focus on says something meaningful to a lot of people. I've concluded that when the exit poll number showed people voted on a moral basis, they didn't mean that they approved of Bush's morals. They meant the liked that he based his positions on morality. Ask Ben sometime how evangelicals react when he expresses his beliefs. That he is in favor of most of the same things they support doesn't matter, if he doesn't do it out of religious conviction. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #183,568 by Arkadiy 11/8/04 5:07:42 PM Reply	"The distain was entirly in your mind. " First ten results from search of "christian" in mmoffitt's postings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am, frankly, frightened of the trend we see of Fundamentalist Christianity increasing its influence on the body politic. When I said "belief" I meant "religious belief/conviction". Which in the case of fundamentalist Christians, it is. I know you better than to think that you would actually advocate legislating fundamentalist Christian beliefs, but you're close to doing that here. So there, with all the Christian holiday cards was good ol' Karl. That's where Christians co-opted "The Chosen People" for themselves and took the moniker away from the Jews, right? And this isn't about "supremacy" - Feh! This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism. This is not unique to Christian writings, that kind of text is present in all the so-called religious texts arising out of the ME. "A plain text reading". The only Christians I know (and I count among them most of the Christians here) that are both self-proclaimed Christians and decent human beings are the Christians who don't take too seriously the medieval superstitious tripe that comprises most of the Christian Bible. Does that help? In short, if you "read the Bible" without rejecting that which is vulgar, indecent and inhumane, then .... It was quite common for the South to quote the many passages in Christian handbooks (The Bible) about "slaves obeying their masters" as a justification for slavery Because, according to the Christian text, you should be beaten/killed for not doing as the Lord commands. If a Christian does not believe anyone should be condemned to hell, then that Christian is the type of Christian I spoke of earlier, the type of Christian that has rejected a part of the religious manual. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,581 by altmann 11/8/04 5:33:13 PM Reply	As was the post by mmoffitt to this thread. -- Chris Altmann
Post #183,721 by mmoffitt 11/9/04 8:59:19 AM Reply	I give up. I can't find my post in this thread. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #183,723 by mmoffitt 11/9/04 9:02:00 AM Reply	How utterly Bolshevik of you. Apparently holding Jay responsible for my comments. HTF did I get dragged into this thread? bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #183,738 by Arkadiy 11/9/04 9:49:20 AM Reply	Even though you may disagree, you're a poster-child left wingnut here. I know you call yourself a Communist, but in the mind of many others you're the left wing of Democratic party. I guess I should try the same trick on Ashton. OK, some of this stuff is him quoting others, but still: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Malpede is more than Stufflebeem. Locked within the general is Artaud himself, periodically breaking through the rigid facade in barked howls of anguish and astonishing rants on pain, feces, cruelty, the pornography of Christianity or the intense hunger pangs of both the starving and the overfed. Working with impressive deliberation, as if carefully choosing every word, Malpede creates a magnetic image of rational insanity that demands -- and rewards -- rapt, close attention. For my part, every time I attempt to contemplate God's will, I get a headache. Call it attention deity disorder. I am possessed of finite intelligence (Evangelical Christians would say very finite), while God is omnipotent, all-knowing and all seeing. To my mind, any finite being who attempts to divine the sweep of God's will is acting, as my great aunt Katherine would say, "awfully presumptuous." Greene's religious faith saturates his politics, but it's a long way from George W. Bush's Christian soldiering You are gonna take up the cudgel of poor taste! amidst the premeditated and incessant Language murder of this campaign? Is that sort of some kind of Christian thing? But we didn't (know), RFK died and Nixon happened - and now we gots Roveowitz == and the fuckers still get to call selves 'conservatives'! Obviously conservatives/'04 don't know any more about conservatism than the KKK 'Christians' knew the first thing about JC. (Corporate Christianity + Bizness) ethics It is entirely appropriate that a presumed-Avatar would be requested to 'allow' this ritual. I know zippo re the "oils" part, an apparent addition, perhaps (like so much else) just another Christian variant on very old practices. Myths recycle and Christianity's myths are unoriginal; preceded by oodles of examples (including crucifixion and "they came from the East") which the interested can discover about. Fundamentalist American Christian Imposed Peace Through War With Fundamentalist Islam \t 1st/Last of a species found! - Christian Conservative Comic! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Anyone else you care to try? Any more questions? -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,759 by ben_tilly 11/9/04 12:01:38 PM Reply	Yeah, try me I'm an outspoken atheist who is definitely on the left wing and is firmly opposed to the religious right. I've never tried to hide either tendancy. What do you find for me? Curiously, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,786 by Arkadiy 11/9/04 2:27:57 PM Reply	Believe it or not but you're hardly a "liberal" in the swearword sense. You're not a typical left-winger, just like BePatient is not a typical right winger. "The Left", justly or not, is associated with people like mmoffitt and ashton. "The Right", correctly or not, is associated with marlowe. You really have no place on either edge. -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,794 by ben_tilly 11/9/04 3:35:05 PM Reply	I find that hard to believe According to selectsmart I had a 100% agreement with Howard Dean's agenda. And the Deaniacs were the poster children in this election for the liberal agenda. Think about it. Against the Iraq invasion. For civil liberties. For gay civil unions. (He was only against gay marriage because he didn't think it was politically doable.) For expanded medical coverage. (He was only against universal health care because he didn't think it was politically doable.) Pro-choice. For financial discipline...by US standards this is the radical left! (By, say, Canadian standards it is mainstream and the "not politically doable" items there are "done and noncontroversial".) Yet I'm not your stereotype of a left-winger. I guess that Howard Dean wasn't either then... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,804 by jake123 11/9/04 4:09:21 PM Reply	Welcome to the distorted view that the US has of itself the reality distortion field that has surrounded the US vis-a-vis people from Other Places has begun to affect themselves too. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #183,814 by Arkadiy 11/9/04 5:56:32 PM Reply	Two of your items pull you to the right: financial discipline and civil liberties. I wonder how you feel about affirmative action and immigration... OK, let's go for your quotes (I exclude teh ones from this thread) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How well do you know it? When boxley talked about Paul's role, you certainly didn't know what he was talking about well enough to recognize that he was talking about the same thing. That was even obvious to me - and I've never been inclined to Christianity nor have I ever studied the Bible! The Pilgrims came after 1600 years of Christian history. J.O.B. clearly falls in the latter class. Bitter satires tend to be enjoyed most by those who have considerable bitterness themselves. J.O.B. is no exception - I've found that it is appreciated most by people with some serious anger with Christianity. (Note that there is more anger towards Christianity than Christians - the hero of the story has beliefs that are truly a caricature of what Heinlein disliked. There is a passage where the causes that he worked for are enumerated. But he still can be the hero because he is fundamentally just another victim.) But even so it is clearly meant as fiction. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I interrupt the sequence because the trend is obvious. You and Ashton definitely belong to different classes when it comes to discussing Christianity. I leave it as an exercice to the reader to figure out which one is more associated with the Left Wing. I think that you tend to take yourself as a representative specimen of your group. You are not. Just because you're thoughtful and reasonable, does not mean that the whole group is like that. -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,836 by Simon_Jester 11/9/04 8:01:56 PM Reply	Curious look why do you claim the right is for financial discipline and civil liberties? Even Reagan fought against financial displine (running the debt up) and civil liberties (hold federal funds hostage to raise the drinking age to 21).
Post #183,840 by Arkadiy 11/10/04 1:33:43 PM Reply	"In this town, people are what they are percieved to be" -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,849 by ben_tilly 11/10/04 2:53:12 PM Reply	Perceived by whom? I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,850 by Arkadiy 11/10/04 2:56:43 PM Reply	Actually, I think I misquoted "In this town, we don't deal with people as they are, but as they are percieved to be" In our particular discussion, it's how "right" percieves "left" and vice versa. -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,847 by ben_tilly 11/10/04 2:50:28 PM Reply	Civil liberties is a right-wing philosophy? I think that you'll find few people on the Left who are for the Patriot act, the ongoing erosion of the 4'th amendment, and many other key civil liberties positions. Certainly it is my impression that organizations like the ACLU are more often thought of as left-wing than right-wing. As for financial discipline, while the Right gives that lip service, in recent US history actual accomplishments have been delivered more consistently by people on the Left, like Clinton and Dean. At least one the federal level, the biggest fiscal disasters have been delivered by conservatives from Reagan on. Take the last Presidential election, who had the better track record for financial discipline, Bush or Kerry? As for how representative I am or am not, there is certainly a left-wing fringe out there that I'm not representative of. And most don't present their opinions as carefully as I do. But I believe myself to be fairly mainstream on the left. Certainly in discussions with aquaintances who are left-wing, my views tend to match theirs fairly well. And, as I said before, my views are a very close match to Howard Dean's, who represents a fairly large block of people. I certainly have no trouble naming other IWETHEY people whose views I would describe as being close to mine. I won't do so mainly because I don't want to drag them into this discussion. But several of you know who you are... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,851 by Arkadiy 11/10/04 3:07:15 PM Reply	Two facts: 1) you and some of the rest of the crowd here have distinctly different tone WRT Christianity 2) you think you're a "mainstream left" That leads me to conclude that, at least in your opinion, the other kind is not "mainstream". Question: what do the other people I quoted think about being "mainstream"? Mmoffitt, is your style representative of most of the "left" crowd? Another question: whom do your opponents consider more representative? We heard from AnotherScott. Beep, care to answer? I personally think that most people in liberal circls are like you, but most noise coming from there is generated by the other kind. I have to constantly remind myself about this, though. Still another question: what is the perception of "right" on the left? We heard from deS with his "old-fashioned Montana(?) honesty". We heard from mmoffitt with "flat earthers". Any more? Person to person, both crowds mostly have decent people. The IQ of a crowd, however, is the lowest IQ in in it divided by the number of participants. Hence the perception problems. -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,852 by bepatient 11/10/04 4:14:46 PM Reply	I've come to find... that the members of this group are hardly a representative sample of one position or another. The "typical liberal" or "typical conservative" are not here. We are all >extremely< atypical. ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #183,853 by Silverlock 11/10/04 4:49:28 PM Reply	I think I have to agree The "typical liberal" or "typical conservative" are not here. Or anywhere. From those assigning the label, you will get a different interpretation of "typical" 11 times out of 10 opinions. ----------------------------------------- How do you convince a Washington Journalist that you're not slapping him in the face? Tell him you're not.
Post #183,855 by Arkadiy 11/10/04 5:26:50 PM Reply	"average programmer" :) -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,881 by ben_tilly 11/11/04 11:56:48 AM Reply	Well there are multiple "right"s The perception of the current administration is as you might expect: they are arrogant, incompetent fascist bastards from the religious right. Feelings vascillate between fear that these yahoos are running the show, to shame that they represent us, to outrage at what they've chosen to do, to astonishment that people like this exist (and fool people)! More broadly I think that there is widespread understanding that there are multiple factions on the right wing. Feelings about people who are right-wing economically (like Milton Friedman) differ from feelings about the religious right (eg Ashcroft) differ from feelings about the neo-conservatives who've hijacked this administration (like Rumsfeld). But none of those feelings are very positive. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #183,763 by pwhysall 11/9/04 12:11:02 PM Reply	Did someone say howls? Beware the calumnificator! ooOOoo Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]
Post #183,787 by Arkadiy 11/9/04 2:28:47 PM Reply	Huh? -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,811 by pwhysall 11/9/04 5:17:08 PM Reply	Read me in my posts. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home]
Post #183,815 by Arkadiy 11/9/04 5:57:59 PM Reply	Oh, I see MM reference, I just don't get how it's connected with what I say. And, what is "ooOOoo"? -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #183,818 by bepatient 11/9/04 6:04:16 PM Reply	MM's sig oooO0Oooo Read me in my posts. do not run with the calumniating yellow horde of wolves If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #183,910 by Ashton 11/12/04 2:57:45 AM Reply	Pure balderdash - language murder 1st Class and a perfect op. cit. for General Language Murder 101A / Remedial. Until there is a 'legend'/glossary-of-terms at IWE "delineating" what - - - - - - [all of us agree to mean! HERE] - - - - - - by such terms as, Left, Right, Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Reactionary, Liberal ... and the other {blab} words: [Let's not even try-for Liberty, Freedom, Security, Patriotism, TRUTH! -- OK?] Till then: You are squarely within Stuart Chase's DEFINITION of blab words usage. ie Meaningless Labels, Tags, often epithets - and all subject to the winds of daily trendy adjectives appended .. like 'Compassionate Conservative' and the useless rest. No two people mean The Same Thing. Imagine what you like, but it Is all projection on your part. What if I saw Jerry Foulwell, who says he's a Christian, then saw you saying ~ "I'm a Christian" -?- Foulwell == Arkadiy? (tell me you wouldn't be insulted). Then when you relate that list <--> to some automatic Party? political philosophy overall? {Sheesh} - wanna take on moral.. too? When language is corrupt, as I assert Ours now Is - special-words need to be Declared in advance, like in those cute other languages you daily use, with lots of ;;;; at the outset - since the traditional labels have become utterly meaningless.. except for parody or simply, invective. And where philosophy intermingles with an individual's metaphysical attitudes, you shall be walking across that [increasingly familiar '00 term] quagmire called ~ massive presumptuousness. [Это будет массивнейшая презумпция на вашей части] ? ie there is NO 'party' nor organized corporate 'religion' which comes very nearto my "views" of the maya / the daily illusions portrayed by various senses. (Maybe when Beep comes up with his list of "what I want to Conserve" and you decide what "compassionate" means in political terms: we may have the seed corn for the mentioned glossary.) PS It's easy to mock 'Christians' - no TWO of them 'believe' quite the Same Thing! -- and it is a palpable rarity when any ONE of them chastises ANOTHER for spewing hate-filled bigotry inJesus'nameAmen. And if these all ARE 'Christians' ?? What Does That Mean ?? Ashton, card-carrying member of the Anti-Hypocrite Party, should one ever exist, stark enough for simple bipeds to feign allegiance-to. Humankind cannot bear very much reality. -- TS Eliot
Post #184,081 by Arkadiy 11/15/04 10:07:01 AM Reply	The language got corrupted, the words have no menaing any longer, why the hell do you keep talking? Apparently, only you, yourself, can understand you hundred percent. The rest of us always get you wrong. "It's all projection on your part" (Oh, no, "please read me in my words". Now I am beginnig to get it, Peter). Yes, I would be insulted if you call me "foulwell". Guess what, every time you utter "Christian" with no qualifications and explanations, it's exactly what happens (or would have been happening, weren't I Jewish). And then you wonder why people call you "Mr. Binary". Somehow other people manage to get their ardent atheism and disdain for some forms of religion across without calling me Foulwell. Is language less corrupted for Ben Tilly? Do I get smarter all of a sudden when I read his posts? (well, if I don't it's not his fault) Ashton, if you wanted to call me "Foulwell", you got it very well. If you wanted to say something else, you failed. I know you're a decent person, in your innermost self. Heck, I know that about everyone on this board. When your writing does not sound decent, something is amiss. It may just be me. Then again, "The people have lost the confidence of the government; the government has decided to dissolve the people, and to appoint another one". -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #184,146 by Ashton 11/15/04 6:46:41 PM 11/15/04 6:50:08 PM Reply	Miss the whole point about labelling, again? the.. What. If. I called you.. Totally, d0oD? Of course you aren't Christian (all n+1 varieties). You have so-stated. Nor do I imagine I 'know' what it means to you to be 'Jewish' - ethnicity? religious dogma? familial habit? All varieties of Jewish sects and their arguments interpreting the Torah? {Sheesh} at least I Know I don't know that which you stand-for, fall-from - because of some bloody Label-attached. Only can I infer from what you write - where you might 'stand' on some topic. It was an example of why the stupid labels fail, fer Moses' sake! 'Twas you who attached a few to moi. I read Ben's post re the different 'perceptions' and also categories of the 'right' - as a perfectly adequate exposition of why the labels are meaningless (without personal explanation). And I concur with Silverlock's assertion: none of us here! is 'typical' - in the vague sense that we imagine that "most people" - 'mean' them [??] fuzzy.. fuzzy.. So why do you persist in assigning such? Is their uselessness not yet demonstrated adequately? Most here have been exposed to a 'liberal' education and -by now- surely possess some small agenda: of things in the US' founding Principles, which each deems worthy of fighting to "conserve" and things apparently needing re-form -- all the personal reasons for each POV will vary as much as does a Life lived in this milieu! Left <--> Right labels are the most hopelessly useless in '04; comparisons with "bomb throwing Anarchists" or "Nazi State Corporatists" as extreme polarities? W.T.F. do such caricatures have to do with transmitting any useful information by or about any one of us 'here' - or for that matter, amidst the 300M? (Despising Neoconmen and all who sail in Her, does not a Democrat-party affiliate make). Nor does ab=ba apply in human matters. As one who is Conservative (of the US Constitution) and deems that the present cabal has a quite different list it wants to substitute: then, Am I Not "a Conservative"? Is it "conservative" to wish to replace governmental control of the country with - control exercised by Corporate outright purchase of the 'peoples' representatives? Is opposing that actuality, then: 'left' or 'right' vis a vis The Constitution? Need another dozen examples? QED - it's bloody language murder. {sheesh}² Yes, I would be insulted if you call me "foulwell". Guess what, every time you utter "Christian" with no qualifications and explanations, it's exactly what happens (or would have been happening, weren't I Jewish). And then you wonder why people call you "Mr. Binary". 'Christians' self-identify regularly, completely without indication of the particular sub-set of selected material and interpretation, much of those choices being contradictory 'Beliefs' <--> to those of Other 'Christians' [!] cf. >THIS WHOLE CAMPAIGN< Perhaps we need a new '04 Label re Evangelicals? / Revelations facilitators? / Persons advocating a Fundamentalist Theocracy to replace the US Constitution? (3 separate ones, or will one New Label suffice?) These are, the numbers suggest: a significant voter bloc, so it is not absurd to assign a Party Name - so shall it be: Republicans, Democrats, Apolcalypse-Nextians? or ____ When someone calls self a 'Christian', I tend to assign a very simple meaning: "OK, this one likely goes to a church of some kind". (And that too, is apt to be wrong, sometimes). WTF do you think, "I am a Christian MEANS !? Do you impute a whole list of things? If you do.. * or a Jew?! Mr. Binary, eh? Actually: hadn't wondered any such thing about "my perception" [and.. by Whom?]; but if you say so.. Have you nothing orthogonal to Black/White Yes/No - even whilst trying for a label about "a one's attitude towards 'binary thinking'"? ;-) Is that meta-disinformation or What? I Who Be, Mr. Analogue Screw Yes/No. Edit typo. Edited by Ashton Nov. 15, 2004, 06:50:08 PM EST Expand All History
Post #184,777 by mmoffitt 11/22/04 11:33:20 AM Reply	You "know I call myself a Communist"? How? bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #184,785 by Arkadiy 11/22/04 11:55:33 AM Reply	I seem to remeber reading that in your posts... If I am mistaken, please accept my apologies. What do you call yourself? -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #184,792 by mmoffitt 11/22/04 12:16:32 PM Reply	Confused. :-) I actually did say that, tongue in cheek, in a post a couple of years ago, something like , "So I guess that makes me a communist ;-)" or something like that. I don't usually label myself, but I do believe a good deal of what I have read from Marx and Engells. The western connotation of the word "communist" is, of course, corrupted to the point that I don't think even Marx would recognize what it means. You can call me a Marxist, I guess - if you must call me something. But that is not what I am. Socialist might be more appropriate, but as Ashton has pointed out, these labels are meaningless. Perhaps the best label is "anti-Corporatist". My problem with Capitalism is that it nurtures the worst in all of us. "I got mine - you go get yours" is the pervasive, I'd argue hostile, emotion that pervades, at the least US, capitalist thought. If there were an honest religious tenet that was expressed by US capitalists, it would read something (exactly?) like this: "Do unto others before they do unto you." bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #185,003 by daemon 11/25/04 12:09:04 AM Reply	he is an OP communist :-) like the rest of us it works well for Other People, just dont apply those rules to me :-). Just Like Beep is an OP capitalist regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #184,786 by broomberg 11/22/04 11:55:59 AM Reply	Uh, here [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=133291\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=133291] Of course, you were never a really good one, but you seemed to try.
Post #184,790 by mmoffitt 11/22/04 12:07:30 PM Reply	I'd be a communist, but I'm not good enough. Close.... bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #184,791 by Arkadiy 11/22/04 12:15:30 PM Reply	A good communits is a dead communist Almost serious: only a corpse can possess the required amount of self-denial and altruism. -- This guy's ahead of his time! He's using quantum programming methods: in universes where invalid data is passed to this function, it does not return. Thus you are ensured that you will only have valid data after calling it. Optimally you'd destroy the universe on failure, but computers haven't quite advanced to that level yet. -- [link\|http://thedailywtf.com/archive/2004/10/26/2920.aspx\|The] Daily WTF
Post #184,794 by mmoffitt 11/22/04 12:19:39 PM Reply	That sounds like what I heard in church as a tot. There's the disconnect for me with religion. All that born out of sin, I'm unworthy, pray for forgivenss for ... living crap. I have too much faith in man to be party to any organized religion. Left to his own uncorrupted devices, I believe we are, unless mentally ill, by our nature an gregarious, altruistic species on the whole. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)

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