How do you prevent a module from loading?

Post #177,605 by drewk 10/4/04 12:08:43 AM Reply	How do you prevent a module from loading? Running Windows under VMWare from a Linux host. The client OS can't get to the printer because the host system owns it. I 'modprobe -r usblp' and the clent OS gets the printer. No, I don't need to use the printer from the host OS. That's what I'm running Windows for. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,606 by broomberg 10/4/04 12:14:51 AM Reply	man modules.conf I think. I needed to suppress something a long time ago and I did it via an entry in this file, but now I can't figure out how. Sorry.
Post #177,607 by deSitter 10/4/04 1:22:40 AM 10/4/04 1:24:54 AM Reply	Re: How do you prevent a module from loading? In modules.conf find the module name, copy the line and comment it out, then alter the uncommented one like alias module-name off Run depmod -a to see if this broke any modules that needed that one to load. Remove all modules that complain about unresolved symbols. -drl Edited by deSitter Oct. 4, 2004, 01:24:54 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,608 by drewk 10/4/04 1:34:37 AM Reply	Not any more ### This file is automatically generated by update-modules"\n#\n# Please do not edit this file directly. If you want to change or add\n# anything please take a look at the files in /etc/modutils and read\n# the manpage for update-modules. And I grepped through both directories mentioned in the comments in that files and couldn't find the module I'm looking for. Since I shut down the module that was holding the printer, I got an error message that popped up sauing hald wasn't working. Traced that back to a hotplug issue. Found lots of instances (just checked: 35) of /etc/hotplug.d/default/hal.hotplug usb running. Looks like I've got more research to do. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,622 by folkert 10/4/04 10:53:35 AM Reply	A quick idea of what to look for and what to do. In Debian Linux with Discover, Hotplug and Hal... For the Hotplug piece: /etc/hotplug/blacklist or create a text file in /etc/blacklist.d/ . Call it anything you want, but put the exact module name in the file. `echo "usblp" >> /etc/hotplu/blacklist.d/unwanted` For the Discover piece: edit `/etc/discover-modprobe.conf` add a line similar to: `echo "skip=\\"usblp\\"" >> /etc/discover-modprobe.conf` For the hal piece, seems nothing is needed... it just keeps track of things. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,626 by deSitter 10/4/04 11:22:27 AM Reply	Re: A quick idea of what to look for and what to do. In SuSE I'd just move USB out of hotplug to manual. This solution is awful - you're doing sysadmin by file redirection? Gah. Never never do this. -drl
Post #177,628 by drewk 10/4/04 11:36:44 AM Reply	What redirection? One of the main benefits of USB is auto-detection of devices. There is one particular device that I don't want auto-detected under Linux, because I want it under Windows/VMWare instead. He's telling me to enter the name of the module that will detect that device in a blacklist. What am I missing? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,630 by deSitter 10/4/04 11:40:16 AM Reply	Re: What redirection? fooker is advising you to redirect the output of a command to create a "blacklist" file to prevent the module from loading. This is about as balled up an idea as I can think of 1) you aren't really blacklisting anything 2) you should never use trickery to accomplish tasks. Find out how to remove the module from hotplug without tricks. As I said, in SuSE I'd just fire up the system config editor and remove USB from hotplug until I was sure it wasn't a problem. You shouldn't tear your system apart because on one hardware problem. Either fix it or stop using that hardware. Ugh. Double ugh. -drl
Post #177,631 by Yendor 10/4/04 11:50:17 AM Reply	Reading for comprehension fooker is advising you to redirect the output of a command to create a "blacklist" file to prevent the module from loading. This is about as balled up an idea as I can think of 1) you aren't really blacklisting anything 2) you should never use trickery to accomplish tasks. This isn't trickery, Ross. It's the same thing as: `vi /etc/hotplug/blacklist.d/unwanted` `$` `o` `usblp` `:x` Same. Exact. Thing. Except that it's all done on one single commandline. So...what's the big fearysome deal? -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #177,653 by deSitter 10/4/04 1:06:47 PM Reply	Re: Reading for comprehension It's just extremely bad taste. You don't accomplish manual system administration with redirection, particularly when you're root. If this isn't obvious there is no point in explaining it. Who on earth is too lazy to actually open/edit a file? Jueezus. -drl
Post #177,657 by pwhysall 10/4/04 1:10:34 PM Reply	Oh, you're so damn l33t. Here's a clue. Everyone does this, all the time. Get over it. You'll be telling me vi is some kind of text editor, next. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,634 by drewk 10/4/04 11:57:11 AM Reply	Wow As Yendor already pointed out, the redirection was just a convenient way to get the string into a file without opening an editor. 1) you aren't really blacklisting anything Yes, I'm really blacklisting something. This is how Debian does USB. 2) you should never use trickery to accomplish tasks. It's not using trickery. This is how Debian does USB. Find out how to remove the module from hotplug without tricks. The way to do it in Debian is with the blacklist. As I said, in SuSE I'd just fire up the system config editor and remove USB from hotplug until I was sure it wasn't a problem. And in Debian you do it by entering it in the blacklist. If you really want to use a system config editor to make this entry in the blacklist, it seems easy enough to write one. You shouldn't tear your system apart because on one hardware problem. How is it "tearing my system apart" to prevent a specific module from loading on hotplug? Either fix it or stop using that hardware. Good idea. Send me a Linux driver for an Epson Stylus R200, and another one for an HP ScanJet 3570c. Soon as you do that I'll install them and wipe Wondows from the box. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,652 by deSitter 10/4/04 1:05:04 PM Reply	Wow There must be something wrong - no sane system would have a blacklist file alone for managing hardware. That's worse than Windows. Can't you reconfigure your kernel to not build that/those module(s)? -drl
Post #177,658 by pwhysall 10/4/04 1:11:12 PM Reply	YUO = TEH FUNNEH Yeah, because compiling your kernel is SO MUCH EASIER than editing a single text file. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,659 by drewk 10/4/04 1:11:27 PM Reply	Uhhh ... You called blacklisting a module "hacking my system apart." Now you want me to recompile my kernel to exclude it. The method Greg is talking about is making an entry in a config file that says, "If a usb printer connects, ignore it." === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,678 by deSitter 10/4/04 2:29:13 PM Reply	Re: Uhhh ... Tight policy says only those modules DIRECTLY RELATED to your functioning hardware constellation are allowed to exist on a machine. So before ANYTHING else, you make a kernel and modules tailored exactly to your own world. If you haven't done this, you should. -drl
Post #177,685 by pwhysall 10/4/04 2:36:15 PM Reply	What cack. What "tight policy" is that? The one in place on Planet Ross? Or do you direct end users to configure their kernels themselves (not a single distro recommends this)? In your world, people would have to recompile their kernel just for plugging in a new USB key. Silly. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,686 by folkert 10/4/04 2:37:40 PM Reply	He the BREAKS... The whole reason to run Debian. Ease of Update and ability to auto-magically upgrade. Whoops. We got this here new kernel that fixes the Huge open hole, but we can't update it... you aren't running a Stock Distribution Kernel. You are out of luck. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,694 by deSitter 10/4/04 2:53:48 PM Reply	Ha that is so rich Sacrifice system tightness in the interest of laziness. OK fine. Yeah. Right. -drl
Post #177,698 by pwhysall 10/4/04 2:58:42 PM Reply	"System tightness" means nothing... ...because the system is there to do precisely one thing: Get The Job Done. If you sacrifice that on the altar of "system tightness", then you have failed as an admin. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,704 by folkert 10/4/04 3:10:56 PM Reply	I don't think you under stand. Right off the BAT, you prove you are inferior at administration. You cannot use the tools provided, or work with them to make you life easier. You once asked me why I nearly always take the Road less easily taken. I didn;t care to answer it then. I sorta will now. Well, you don't seem to understand, when I take the road less taken, it IS for a reason. Those reasons might be anywhere from; just because I have the ability to, or Maybe, just maybe I am taking the long-term easy way out. I'll let you try to understand why I as a very Seasoned Senior Network and Systems Analyst to the routes I do. I'll tell you one thing, it isn't becuse Microsoft has forced me. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,725 by ben_tilly 10/4/04 4:20:08 PM Reply	And why not? Your "tightness" is an artificial aesthetic value of yours. Unless you can translate it into a value someone else cares about, it deserves to be sacrificed if it conflicts with any value that people care more about. By contrast "takes less work" is a value that is very real and has directly measurable consequences. That which takes less work is more likely to happen. Costs less to do. And frees people's time so that they can focus on more important things. Sure, you might waste some system resources. Do I care? Should I care? No. Not if those system resources cost less than the time saved. The one thing that I should care about is whether time and energy saved now will cost me more later. If you can demonstrate that then you have a point. But if you can't, then it is clear to me how little value I should place on system "tightness". Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #177,677 by folkert 10/4/04 2:18:14 PM Reply	Okay for your anal retentive mind... As the System owber "root", Open `/etc/hotplug/blacklist.d/unwanted` with your favorite editor. It is a new file, so you will need to save it. In this editor of your get to a point where you can open a new line and the type in the following characters in the following order all lowercase all one word no space(s) inbetween them. `u` sounds like "yew" `s` sounds like "ess" `b` sounds like "pee" but also sounds like "bee" `l` sounds like "elle" but no extra "ah" on the end `p` sounds like "bee" but also sound like "pee" Once you do this, you then must exit your editor, but first saving the file. Make sure you save it as `/etc/hotplug/blacklist.d/unwanted` This then concludes adding entries to Debian's Blacklist list of modules for Hotplug the package. Now, we still have discover to deal with. Now for discover it is the file `/etc/discover-modprobe.conf`. Please open the file up, it may be new, so don't forget to save it when you are finished. Get into a mode where you can add a line and begin typing. Once there please enter the following sequence of Characters at the end of the file: `s` sounds like "ess" `k` sounds like "cay" `i` sounds like "eye" `p` sounds like "pee" `=` This one is special so you might have to look for it. `"` Another special one, it shoudl be right next to the enter key. `u` sounds like "yew" `s` sounds like "ess" `b` sounds like "bee" `l` sounds like "elle" mine the "ahh" at the end `p` sounds like "p" `"` The same key you pressed six(6) characters ago, yeah that is the one. Once that is done, please exit edit mode and save the file. The whole reason to do this is to tweak what you want and don;t want to auto-magically load. You see Hotplug and discover overlap each other a bit now... causing the double entry setup. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go do other things more important. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,636 by pwhysall 10/4/04 12:05:37 PM Reply	"Hi. I'm Ross." "Tonight, I'll be talking out of my arse about a distribution I don't understand in ways that make me seem, to the uneducated observer, like I know what I'm talking about." Ross, until you grok Debian, you're not qualified to comment. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,655 by deSitter 10/4/04 1:07:49 PM Reply	"I use SuSE" We have sane management of hotplug devices that does not lead to horrible kludges. -drl
Post #177,656 by pwhysall 10/4/04 1:09:06 PM Reply	It's not a horrible kludge. Thanks for playing, though. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #177,680 by deSitter 10/4/04 2:30:07 PM Reply	http://portal.suse.com/sdb/en/2004/05/91_coldhotplug.html -drl
Post #177,687 by folkert 10/4/04 2:40:29 PM Reply	What NO documentation for the ONE liner? Oh come-on you. This is just wrong. At least you could have provided SOME kind of summary that would have leveled the playing field on us NON-SuSE users. Why are you telling me this BAD advice. You should have written a discertation on that message. GAH, this is JUST wrong, what is there this Double Standard or SewPer-SEKRET SuSE Administration vs the lowly average Debian (l)user? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,682 by folkert 10/4/04 2:32:29 PM Reply	No, you use something you are familiar with. You believe Yast2 is the Shizzile and the Fizzile. It is good. But WHY should I have to run a GUI from a possibly remote machine and display it JUST so I can manage USB modules? If you haven't USED Debian Sarge, DON'T comment on it until you have file 15 bugreport through the use of the Beta release. Trust me, I file 2 to three bugs a week during my time using sarge. Even a couple of config file patches to help things out. One was for nagios-pgsql. It had the wrong deps for it. It was going to install the same package list as for nagios-mysql. Now, how about you just go and use Debian Sarge (the next release to stable is called Sarge) and use the crap out of it. Submit your bugs, when you realize what I just told Drew to do, was the right thing to do, just type the words: `Greg, you were right, I am sorry for doubting your majestical knowledge in the World of Linux in General and Debian by Speciality.` -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,674 by folkert 10/4/04 1:57:00 PM Reply	Hey Big Guy... Debian does things in a way that is the least amount intrusion. Why would you remove USB from detecting auto-magically to manual? It isn't that I told it to STOP loading USB all together. Just the one module. Same as you doing the "alias modulename off" thing you did. I am just using the the facility that Debian has put into being. It still loads everything else. And best of all, auto-magically it does this. One other things you are going to HATE... is when I show him the solution to the Device Nodes for VMware being auto-matically being created. Just using the facilities that are there. Thats all. BTW, Ross, I was at Drew's house this weekend dropping of a replacement machine, you know the one I was taking screenies from. Give me a break, you just can't stand something you have no clue on. Get some toilet paper and clean up you klingons circling "Uranus" -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,681 by deSitter 10/4/04 2:30:50 PM Reply	Re: Hey Big Guy... OK, so don't compile that module. Wow, that was hard. -drl
Post #177,684 by folkert 10/4/04 2:34:50 PM Reply	Or better yet... Why not make Debian or SuSE compile Kernels with specific sets of Drivers only with no modules. Or Better yet, Why not compile everything in a statically compiled. Ross. Why not just DELETE THE DAM MODULE you don't want loaded. Rather than compile anew kernel? Jackass. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,695 by deSitter 10/4/04 2:54:59 PM Reply	fbog -drl
Post #177,706 by folkert 10/4/04 3:12:28 PM Reply	What, "fbog" Why? Why do you find that? Please elucidate on your reasons for feeling this way. Remember, I am and always shall be your friend and your enemy. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,712 by deSitter 10/4/04 3:29:48 PM 10/4/04 3:31:17 PM Reply	Calm down Can't you have a nice heated discussion without blowing your stack? What you suggested was to lose all hotplug facility completely. Why would I want that? You seem to think only YOU are capable of getting to the bottom of things. I had a USB keyboard that would never properly initialize. Instead of kludging up my system I got to the bottom of things - the USB system needed a few more seconds to respond. So a "sleep 5" at the right place fixed it the REAL way - so that it actually worked within the constraints of the existing system, without breaking it. So I can still do all auto updates from SuSE without having a zillion useless modules on my machine, everything works, and ONLY my hardware world is represented. (Plus I have nice big 12x22 Sun console font on boot :) -drl Edited by deSitter Oct. 4, 2004, 03:31:17 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,731 by drewk 10/4/04 4:32:29 PM Reply	He didn't What you suggested was to lose all hotplug facility completely. Nope. Let's look at what he sad: echo "usblp" >> /etc/hotplu/blacklist.d/unwanted Guess what "usblp" is? It's the module that talks to usb printers. You know, "lp" as in "lpt1". They used to call it that, right? And you are running a 2.6 kernel aren't you? Under 2.4 kernels usb printing was handled by usbcore, which would have meant disabling all of usb. And the issue is that if the host OS (Linux) is controlling the usb printer, the client OS under VMWare (Windows) can't talk to it. And since I only have Windows on this box because there is no Linux driver for it I figure I'm safe in saying I don't need the Linux system talking to the printer. Now, by instructing Linux to not load this one module, the printer stays available for the Windows instance to use. I don't modify my kernel, so the method my distro uses to push security updates still works. And the module is still there so if someone finishes a decent Linux driver a couple of months from now, I just delete the line from the blacklist and it starts working. Bah, I'm done biting on this troll. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #177,733 by folkert 10/4/04 4:41:35 PM Reply	No. blacklisting is ONLY for dealing with Specific modules you DON'T want loaded. And no, I wasn't blowing my stack. I was using your own tactics against you. There is a difference. I would NEVER disable all hotplugging. Why would I do that when I could just Uninstall it. You see, Debian isn't all about taking the easy road, but building your own road the best way possible, freely. I know how SuSE works, remember I have a discount on SuSE stuff (which now has turned into a discount on all Novell stuff). I like SuSE, I (used to) like RedHat, I like Debian, I like Slackware (which I have a lifetime subscription for priority release and reduced pricing). I use the best tools that are available, hotplug in debian has been extended to recognize "conf.d" style directories. Better yet, All of Debian is taking that approach. To minize the conflagarations of botching conf files. This way, If I were to install a module for Apache and it needs configurations, /etc/apache/conf.d/ is where it's "file" would go for configs. This is the way Hotplug deals with dev.d (as well as udev) and blacklist.d. SuSE doesn't have the modularity thing down. They don't need it yet. They don't support 13 platforms. (well not quite yet) Debian needs the flexibility to do specific configs for different architectures and there they have expanded this stuff to enable ease of maintenance. Best thing for you to do, pull down a current version of the sarge_di network install. From [link\|http://gluck.debian.org/cdimage/testing/sarge_d-i/i386/current/sarge-i386-netinst.iso\|here] and go install it. Use it, ask question that can be painfully simple to use. GrokDebian for what it strives to do, GrokDebian for what it tries to do, GrokDebian for what it can do, GrokDebian for the tremndous works from Volunteers. Volunteers, yes that is right Debian is not "funded" by commercial greed or support hungry companies. Volunteers give time to help answer questions. Volunteers maintain something like 100 bahmillion lines of code for the 16000+ packages in the Debian Archive. Debian gives back to upstream heavily, infact there is not other Distribution that has a better bug tracking, reporting, fixing and porting record. Debian does this automatically if you want. Manually by default. I could wax on indefinitely. But you hopefully get the point. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #177,736 by ben_tilly 10/4/04 4:54:53 PM Reply	You call an extra sleep(5) not a kludge? I'm sorry Ross, but you have no taste. Adding an extra sleep because something is slow is a hack. Sure, I'd do something like that when I need to. I have. I preface it with comments about it being a hack because I know that it is wrong and I know everything that can break when I do that. Perhaps there is a problem that causes it to slow down? It breaks. Perhaps some day I get a better one that initializes faster? I'm wasting time. Perhaps someone copies that code to use elsewhere? That (now superfluous) sleep has become a bad meme. Coming up with a "right" solution is sometimes more work than it is worth. Such is life. But I wouldn't hire someone who doesn't have the aesthetic sense to knowl when they're just applying duct tape. Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra

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