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New Has tonight's debate already happened?
It appears so if you read this story from the AP (link posted to IWT at 14:46 Central Time, 2004-Sep-30.)

[link|http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040930_1184.html|http://abcnews.go.co...0040930_1184.html]
-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
New Looks like they are planning ahead
Obvious mistake in posting that, but it looks like they are just planning ahead. Notice that the article isn't done yet, at the bottem there are just place holders for latter links. I also figure the carefully neutral tone of the article is a place holder till they decide who won.

After all, they knew far ahead of time that they would want to write an article on the debate, and that they would want to post it as soon after the debate as possible. The best solution is to lay out an article covering all the topics and basic facts they want to touch on, and then touch it up latter based on what happens at the debate.

Jay
New --kinda like an obit for a famous deceased [man, country]
New "they decide who won"
I'd love to be at the meeting where the decision is made (It's a meeting, right?). Got to be considered from all possible POW: user impact, stock price impact, inner corporate politics, resources available... Oy, I am thinking software company here, beg your pardon.
--

... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
New It's gone now. Who won? :-\\
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New Quoted for Great Justice
CORAL GABLES, Fla. Sept. 30, 2004 \ufffd After a deluge of campaign speeches and hostile television ads, President Bush and challenger John Kerry got their chance to face each other directly Thursday night before an audience of tens of millions of voters in a high-stakes debate about terrorism, the Iraq war and the bloody aftermath.

The 90-minute encounter was particularly crucial for Kerry, trailing slightly in the polls and struggling for momentum less than five weeks before the election. The Democratic candidate faced the challenge of presenting himself as a credible commander in chief after a torrent of Republican criticism that he was prone to changing his positions.

Bush was expected to confront questions about leading the nation into war on the still-unproven premise that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. He also has faced accusations that he lacked a strategy to deal with the violence and chaos that have left more than 1,000 Americans dead and that the Iraq war has diverted U.S. attention from al-Qaida and other terrorists.

With a record of four years in office to defend, Bush had a debate strategy of being optimistic about Iraq but acknowledging that times were tough. His stance is that Americans know he is a decisive leader even if they don't always agree with his decisions and that Kerry has taken conflicting positions on Iraq and can't be trusted to lead the nation.

Although Kerry voted to give Bush authority to invade Iraq, he says he would not have followed Bush's path to war a path that alienated allies and, the Democrat says, left Americans less secure. Kerry argues Bush is out of touch with reality, paints too rosy a picture about Iraq and lacks a strategy to end the crisis.

Kerry also says Bush has neglected other major problems like North Korea and Iran, two nations suspected of pursing nuclear weapons.

Kerry, in a taped interview on ABC's "Good Morning America" on Thursday, said, "George Bush is scaring America. He's talking terror every day, and people see terrible images of what's happening in the world, and they're real."

Bush spent the morning comforting hurricane victims on his fifth survey of Florida areas hit by storms. At the Martin County, Fla., Red Cross center, Bush thanked volunteers for showing "the true heart of America. We long to help somebody when they're hurting."

The debate's focus on Iraq was sharpened by bombings in Baghdad Thursday that killed three dozen children.

Ahead in the polls, Bush could afford to settle for a debate draw while Kerry needed something to break the status quo. Some Democrats saw the debates as the last chance for a Kerry breakout.

Thursday night's meeting at the University of Miami was the first of three Bush-Kerry debates over a two-week period. Neither side was underestimating its importance with a TV audience of 30 million to 40 million expected. Almost a third of people surveyed say the debates will be a deciding factor in how they vote.

The first debate drew the nation's attention to hurricane-battered Florida and its political importance. Florida swung the presidency to Bush in the disputed 2000 election and could determine whether he wins re-election.

The debates were staged under a rigid set of rules negotiated by the candidates' representatives to limit spontaneity and opportunities for back-and-forth exchanges.
Powered by the Hammer of the Gods
New Be interesting to do a difference analysis
on the above capture and the final publication, just to see what changed....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Watching it now.
Bush is obviously outclassed. His stumbling answers are a glaring departure from his previous debates.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
New We're also watching it
To me it seems as though he's doing more avoiding of answering the direct questions than answering them.

Nightowl >8#



"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
New Revenge of the id
-drl
New Re: Watching it now. comments from da boss
on 2 minutes of Kerry,
me:what do you think?
her:bla bla bla clinton bla bla bla
:-)
regards,
daemon
New Happening alright
Kerry is smoking Shrub like a side of bacon. The latter is a grunting, sniffling, prissy moron caught with his brain down. Kerry is cool, calm, and in charge of facts. It's Marlowe vs. Mountbatten.
-drl
Expand Edited by deSitter Sept. 30, 2004, 10:09:51 PM EDT
New ICLRPD
"It's Marlowe vs. Mountbatten"

cordially,
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
New Re: ICLRPD
marlowe vs a fellow full of grenade holes?
we're all together in the green in the green
dancing to the tune of tommy gun
regards,.
daemon
New This msg courtesy of the Imus Republican Arty
-drl
New Agree.
Bush was toasted.

The last 2 30 second extensions were actually painful to watch.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Re: Agree.
Painful? It's like winning the Super Bowl! PAINFUL?? I'M DANCING ON THE CEILING!!!
-drl
New No, it's painful.
That man represents the U.S. right now. He's painful to watch.

Comment heard in the "after-spin": Bush pulled a Gore in the cut-away shots. Many times he looked angry and dispeptic while Kerry was speaking. Kerry just took notes and looked amiable while Bush was speaking.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New He is?
Those things with arms and legs are not the Honored Right, they are the Proto Fascist Automatons. Marlowe and his gutter ilk having NOTHING in common with honorable people like Goldwater and Eisenhower, Phillips and Buchanan.

-drl
New He is what?
And it doesn't matter *what* he is. The President represents the U.S. to the world.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New No he doesn't
The world isn't stupid - Bush represents oil money, not the American people.
-drl
New You're missing my point.
He represents the U.S. He's the President. That's how it is. He signs the treaties, he talks with the other world leaders. He may not represent the views of you and me, but as far as what counts on the world stage (not opinion, but how things work) he represents us.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Beg to differ, slightly.
Officially, he represents us. However, I can't tell you how many people abroad I've heard from directly and through my father who remains in contact with quite a few people there (many, many contacts from Russia, Bosnia, Germany, etc. from my dad's handful of stints w/Soros Foundation organizations) who say that they are always aware of "how Bush came to power." That said, they are watching this election closely and if it turns out that Bush actually wins the election this time, then I think it would be fair to say "Bush represents the US" and that is how the folks I've heard from will see it as well.

That, more than anything else, is why Bush must be defeated again this time around in my view.
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New Er, no, you don't.
That's all I'm saying. Officially, he represents us.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Er, okay, but ...
that isn't exactly what you said. You said, "He represents the U.S. He's the President. That's how it is." The difference is subtle, but important.
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New Re: Er, okay, but ...
Which is why I also said, he may not represent what you and I think, but he still represents the U.S.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Better.
"He may not represent the views of the majority of Americans, nor any Americans who believe in the principles set forth in the US Constitution, but he does formally, technically, and officially represent the United States."

D'accord? ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New Ar.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Looks like a technical to me
I would judge the debate a win for Kerry but on technical points not a knock out. Neither side got in a knock out punch, neither side fell down. Kerry got in more good body jabs, and Bush stumbled a few times.

Bush made better use of the 1 minute extensions. Having Leher extend the questions when Bush wanted to say something, which Kerry never did. But Kerry was better on the rebounds then Bush and kept Bush from landing any heavy blows that way.

Both of the them made some statements I really question. Bush has a habit of taking credit for things he was forced to do against his will, mentioning Homeland security, going to the UN for backing and multiparty talks with North Korea. Kerry mentioned Bin Laden in Afgansitan, and his appropriations votes.

Looks like we are going down to the wire on this one, I just hope we can avoid a sudden death overtime like last election.

Jay
New "Sudden Death"....Apt phrase, indeed!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New It is now
Much as it distresses me to say it, I'm not optimistic about the result.

What Bush wanted to do was reinforce people's impression of him, and leave a couple of negative tags on Kerry. What Kerry wanted to do was make people understand that Bush has bad policies and distorts the truth.

Bush succeeded in his goals ("How can you lead troops when you say wrong war, wrong time, wrong place? A commander in chief doesn't do that."). Kerry tried, but he should have had more sets of simple, damning facts to put on Bush. (I liked the point about Bush pulling inspectors out of North Korea and then they got weapons, too bad he only said it once.)

Kerry didn't do badly. But it wasn't the convincing win that I'd like to have seen.

Cheers,
Ben
About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
New Utterly disagree
It was Kennedy-Nixon redux. Even the relative positions on the stage was similar. You can see it online - GIYF.

I also won a bet. Bush said "new-q-ler" :)

-drl
New Agree.
Kerry needs to show how Bush has flip-flopped. That's the best defense, IMO.

Homeland security or no homeland security? Was it WMD or not WMD? etc.

I was hoping to hear about Bush's vacations too... :-P
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New It was a tie.
I thought they both did reasonably well. Stylistically, they're very different of course. But on substance they each did a pretty good job of making their points without being goaded into responding to the criticism by the other and going off-message.

Bush forcefully defended his policies, and Kerry didn't do as good a job as I expected in pointing out Bush's mistakes or how he would do things differently. I don't think Kerry did a good job in explaining how bilateral talks with North Korea was better than multilateral talks.

Kerry wasn't as good as Bush in keeping his responses on topic. Bush let his smirking come out too much. Kerry was more articulate.

I don't think it changed the race much if at all. It'll reinforce preconceived notions.

In short: it was a tie in my opinion.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Mostly agree, but would give Kerry slight edge.
On the other hand, given the effective fear mongering of the recent past, this debate is the one that Bush should have had the largest advantage.

Not sure how the "town meeting" version of the debate will go. It depends on the questions.

Bush will be toast in the final debate when the subject is domestic issues.
Alex

"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
New It matters not who won . . .
It matters who the media says won in the morning after.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Yup.
I just wanted to get my opinions out before the hurricane of political spin decends.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who remembers how Ford's remarks about Poland were twisted in his debate with Carter...)
New Right, and if the media says . . . .
. . "Bush looked like a moron", that could swing the powerful moron vote which may be enough to tie up the election.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New No chance of that.
The medja rarely reports the truth ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New Boundless cynicism
-drl
New An unscientific survey says it DID change some votes
WGN-AM radio did a most unscientific poll (the first 10 callers who called in got ten seconds to critique the debate and say who they thought won). Final result: Kerry won: 8, Bush won: 1, Both are "knuckleheads": 1.

But the kicker was that two people who claimed that they were "lifelong Republicans" said they were going to vote for Kerry. Which indicates to me that Ross is right: These ass-clowns are not the Republicans of Goldwater.... (It may also mean that Duh's support among "Republicans" is softer than they think!)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New On bilateral talks
Bush says it's wrong to hold bilateral talks with Kim Jong Il, because that's exactly what he wants.[1] He said, "When you're talking with a madman, you want to be surrounded by allies." Like China. Allies.

So when talking to a madman, you want to make sure you're surrounded by allies. But when invading a country with the world's fourth largest army to depose a madman ... eh, we'll do that one on our own.



[1] Let's ignore for the moment the possibility that what Kim Jong Il wants just may also be good for us.
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Re: On bilateral talks
Bush also neglected to mention that the other four parties—Japan, China, Russia and South Korea—all want the US to engage in bilateral talks with NK.

But I suspect that he was genuinely unaware of this.

cordially,
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
New But...here's the spin...
Kerry supports international approval and cooperation and thinks all of our foreign policy depends on it...but he wants us to go at NK by ourselves.

Flip flop.

Heard that one today.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New This must be that exclusive-OR I've heard so much about
Mere fact of a US/NK confab -?- implicitly nullifies any other agreements, understandings, sub-rosa attachments etc. ad legislatum..

Flippant flop-flip, that - ya can't spin jello!


Gerrymandered in Joisey
New Used the same by Kerry camp
as you know that our military could not possibly fight in Iraq and still look for Bin Laden.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New According to your military
not if they want to do the latter job properly.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
     Has tonight's debate already happened? - (Yendor) - (46)
         Looks like they are planning ahead - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
             --kinda like an obit for a famous deceased [man, country] -NT - (Ashton)
             "they decide who won" - (Arkadiy)
         It's gone now. Who won? :-\\ -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
             Quoted for Great Justice - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                 Be interesting to do a difference analysis - (jb4)
         Watching it now. - (Silverlock) - (3)
             We're also watching it - (Nightowl)
             Revenge of the id -NT - (deSitter)
             Re: Watching it now. comments from da boss - (daemon)
         Happening alright - (deSitter) - (18)
             ICLRPD - (rcareaga) - (2)
                 Re: ICLRPD - (daemon) - (1)
                     This msg courtesy of the Imus Republican Arty -NT - (deSitter)
             Agree. - (bepatient) - (12)
                 Re: Agree. - (deSitter) - (11)
                     No, it's painful. - (admin) - (10)
                         He is? - (deSitter) - (9)
                             He is what? - (admin) - (8)
                                 No he doesn't - (deSitter) - (7)
                                     You're missing my point. - (admin) - (6)
                                         Beg to differ, slightly. - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                             Er, no, you don't. - (admin) - (4)
                                                 Er, okay, but ... - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                     Re: Er, okay, but ... - (admin) - (2)
                                                         Better. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                             Ar. -NT - (admin)
             Looks like a technical to me - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                 "Sudden Death"....Apt phrase, indeed! -NT - (jb4)
         It is now - (ben_tilly) - (2)
             Utterly disagree - (deSitter)
             Agree. - (admin)
         It was a tie. - (Another Scott) - (13)
             Mostly agree, but would give Kerry slight edge. - (a6l6e6x)
             It matters not who won . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 Yup. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                     Right, and if the media says . . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         No chance of that. - (mmoffitt)
                 Boundless cynicism -NT - (deSitter)
             An unscientific survey says it DID change some votes - (jb4)
             On bilateral talks - (drewk) - (5)
                 Re: On bilateral talks - (rcareaga) - (4)
                     But...here's the spin... - (bepatient) - (3)
                         This must be that exclusive-OR I've heard so much about - (Ashton) - (2)
                             Used the same by Kerry camp - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 According to your military - (jake123)

All artists are potentially a victim of their desire to be unique.
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