Well I do think its an over-reaction.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

simply pointing out that the actions went further than you said in your post. In short, he's banned from the US and is basically considered a terrorist.

What do you think of the idea that you can be held responsible for what a third party does with money you give them... esp. when you either may not or do not know what exactly will be done with it?

Is giving money to muslim charities automatically grounds for banning foreign citizens as terrorists? What about branding US citizens as such?

This is pretty much of a part with the current designation of (IIRC) Omar Khadr as a terrorist for planting landmines and killing a US soldier in a firefight. It should be noted that these events happened while there was still a hot war going on in Afghanistan. If planting landmines and killing US soldiers makes one a terrorist by fiat, who ISN'T one in any insurgency in any country that the US currently occupies or may occupy? Even more to the point, does this mean that we should start seeking out all Afghans who planted landmines and killed Russian soldiers during their occupation of the country?

Just how many Saudi representatives are here and welcomed by the government that have the same link to these organizations?

Neither candidate will address that problem, either. Shame really. Kerry is all talk, his energy independence plan not really kicking in till 10 years after his term would be over anyway...and the majority of the plan mirrors what Bush already is doing...which is funding alternative energy research and attempting to bolster inventiveness in the sector. Bush's focus has been on alternative fuel for cars (hydrogen)...lofty...maybe it will work...and if so we will actually have created something that we can competitively market throughtout the globe (reducing the current account deficit...woohoo).

Issue is...we have to bite some serious bullet to have our cake and eat it too. We either allow ANWR and use it to offset Saudi directly...then take the other from the new IRAQ...then mandate 40 mpg fleet averages and spend like hell on research or we continue to have to play nice with the Saudis.

Post #175,625 by bepatient 9/22/04 9:55:15 AM Reply	Well I do think its an over-reaction. However, he has publicly supported things like the execution of Salmon Rushdie and has given financial support to terrorist groups...some of that money making it to groups like Hamas. So maybe he, himself isn't a terrorist...thinking instead that he is just an enlightened soul...but his money has made it to those who are terrorists. He should have been heavily screened...but pulling him off the flight was silly. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,627 by jake123 9/22/04 9:57:26 AM 9/22/04 10:27:05 AM Reply	I don't think you get it He wasn't just pulled off the flight. He was deported. He's not permitted into the US anymore. Edit: in the interests of complete accuracy, I should say "will be deported". Finally, it looks like the US is into the guilt by association thing. I hope all philanthropists start looking carefully at who they give money too. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by jake123 Sept. 22, 2004, 10:27:05 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,633 by jb4 9/22/04 10:36:14 AM Reply	Your "Faith-based Initiative" at work. So long as it is the "right" faith, of course jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,638 by bepatient 9/22/04 10:51:02 AM Reply	non sequiter If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,720 by jb4 9/22/04 1:18:47 PM Reply	Think about it for a minute, BeeP... ...then maybe you'll get it. ...or not.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,724 by bepatient 9/22/04 1:27:32 PM Reply	I know where you're going but it just ain't so. There is concerted effort in this administration to go the entirely opposite direction of what you imply...hence the fining of AA and UA for singling out too many in line. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,637 by bepatient 9/22/04 10:50:11 AM Reply	And I think its an overreaction. Just like I said. And it would be naivite in the extreme for Mr Islam to think that the money he was giving to the various organizations was not ending up as terrorist support. In his defense, though. He has to dispose of quite a bit of royalty income based on his belief that it is against God's will to put your money in an interest bearing account. So he bought a hotel and built a school...but probably had some left over that found its way into the more violent factions of the religion. The problem is, in his public support of Rushdie thing...he id'd himself as a supporter of some of the more radical elements. Again...the government is likely overreacting, but Yousef Islam has given them some cause to do so. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,644 by jake123 9/22/04 11:20:22 AM Reply	I wasn't particularly criticising you simply pointing out that the actions went further than you said in your post. In short, he's banned from the US and is basically considered a terrorist. What do you think of the idea that you can be held responsible for what a third party does with money you give them... esp. when you either may not or do not know what exactly will be done with it? Is giving money to muslim charities automatically grounds for banning foreign citizens as terrorists? What about branding US citizens as such? This is pretty much of a part with the current designation of (IIRC) Omar Khadr as a terrorist for planting landmines and killing a US soldier in a firefight. It should be noted that these events happened while there was still a hot war going on in Afghanistan. If planting landmines and killing US soldiers makes one a terrorist by fiat, who ISN'T one in any insurgency in any country that the US currently occupies or may occupy? Even more to the point, does this mean that we should start seeking out all Afghans who planted landmines and killed Russian soldiers during their occupation of the country? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #175,658 by bepatient 9/22/04 11:40:06 AM Reply	The real double standard Just how many Saudi representatives are here and welcomed by the government that have the same link to these organizations? Neither candidate will address that problem, either. Shame really. Kerry is all talk, his energy independence plan not really kicking in till 10 years after his term would be over anyway...and the majority of the plan mirrors what Bush already is doing...which is funding alternative energy research and attempting to bolster inventiveness in the sector. Bush's focus has been on alternative fuel for cars (hydrogen)...lofty...maybe it will work...and if so we will actually have created something that we can competitively market throughtout the globe (reducing the current account deficit...woohoo). Issue is...we have to bite some serious bullet to have our cake and eat it too. We either allow ANWR and use it to offset Saudi directly...then take the other from the new IRAQ...then mandate 40 mpg fleet averages and spend like hell on research or we continue to have to play nice with the Saudis. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,665 by Simon_Jester 9/22/04 11:54:39 AM Reply	I like how you indict him without proof. ...but probably had some left over that found its way into the more violent factions of the religion.
Post #175,668 by bepatient 9/22/04 11:55:57 AM Reply	The fed claims to have that proof. I don't. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,675 by Simon_Jester 9/22/04 12:00:34 PM Reply	They do? A government official said Islam was on the watch list because of "known associations and financial support to organizations believed to be aiding terrorism." Chuckle...better be careful if you donate blood to the Red Cross, the government might decide that the Red Cross is "aiding terrorism". (Actually, gives new meaning to the term blood money. ;-)
Post #175,698 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:35:07 PM Reply	Thats how he got on the list. I don't make the rules. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,628 by pwhysall 9/22/04 10:01:43 AM Reply	Cackle Salmon [image\|http://www.nessie.co.uk/graphics/salmon.jpg\|\|\|\|] Salman [image\|http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/reviews/12/11/review.rock.and.roll/story.rushdie.jpg\|\|\|\|] Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,629 by jb4 9/22/04 10:21:55 AM Reply	Ohh! OK...I got it now..............................;-\ufffd jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,632 by bepatient 9/22/04 10:35:30 AM Reply	oopsie. Something fishy about that one. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,674 by pwhysall 9/22/04 12:00:21 PM Reply	I shan't carp on about it. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,696 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:33:58 PM Reply	Your wit has me floundering to find a retort. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,697 by pwhysall 9/22/04 12:34:56 PM Reply	Pardon? My herring is going. Speak up! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,706 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:41:30 PM Reply	Guess I won't ask you to tuna piano then. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,710 by pwhysall 9/22/04 12:49:10 PM Reply	I could, but you'd have to bring it to my plaice. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,714 by bepatient 9/22/04 1:04:20 PM Reply	I'm a shrimp...so I'll need kelp getting it there. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,728 by pwhysall 9/22/04 1:35:19 PM Reply	I think I'm the sole person keeping this thing going. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,739 by bepatient 9/22/04 1:52:38 PM Reply	Abalone! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,640 by ChrisR 9/22/04 10:55:34 AM 9/22/04 10:58:51 AM Reply	Not to mention all those suicide bombers that were inspired ...by Harold and Maude. Edited by ChrisR Sept. 22, 2004, 10:58:51 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,659 by bepatient 9/22/04 11:40:40 AM Reply	Thought you were gonna use Peace Train. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,685 by ChrisR 9/22/04 12:15:49 PM Reply	I like the more obscure references.
Post #175,654 by GBert 9/22/04 11:30:42 AM Reply	When your money ends up supporting terrorists... But, but -- who among us has not purchased a petroleum-based product in the last 30 years? Giovanni Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that.

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