Thanks. And a little story.

Post #17,543 by Another Scott 11/9/01 3:19:03 PM Reply	Thanks. And a little story. I appreciate all the responses I've seen. Perhaps there are semantics buried in what I'm asking and what we're saying. In your PerlMonks piece you wrote, As for forgiveness, I won't give it, and you hopefully don't need it. This is not personal. I simply do not agree with the word "sorry". I have seen too many people who will do mean things, say, "sorry" - and then having been forgiven will go ahead and do the same mean things again. After all, why not when forgiveness is so easily come by, what value does "personal responsibility" have? This paragraph helps me understand you a bit better. I think I understand what you're saying, but it seems to me that you're mixing up perfunctory and true expressions of regret. Just because others may be insincere in their expressions of concern or love or regret doesn't mean that yours need to be. My opinion is that forgiveness (again in the #1 sense) isn't something to be asked for nor given lightly. It should come after reflection and a true meeting of the minds. You also wrote, However I also try to avoid grudges. I try to seperate the person from the event. If your behaviour from now on indicates improvement, you will never hear from me about this again. I won't forgive you, but I also won't hold it against you. Because while I don't believe in repentance, I do believe in learning. Avoiding grudges seems to me to be a form of forgiveness. I don't view forgiveness as being a wiping clean of the slate. I don't think it's possible to "forgive and forget" but I think we should try to if the offender is sincere. Let's consider a, purely hypothetical, example. Really. No, I mean it.... Say it is your wife's birthday. You've picked up a piece of cake for her from the bakery on the way home. She's had a really bad day at work. After dinner that you prepared, you get the piece of cake ready for her, but she's tied up for a few minutes. You sit down to watch some TV or read IWeThey for a few minutes. She finishes what she was doing and comes in. You've gotten engrossed in the show or don't want to lose your train of thought and want to wait a couple of minutes. She gets upset, storms off and yells at you, bringing up some of the previous things you've done to annoy and upset her, etc. You know she's had a bad day so she's on edge, but you don't feel that you've been as bad as she says. An argument ensues. You're both angry and hurt and upset. You try, without much success, to calm each other down and say let's have the cake. She's still upset and says, multiple times, no she doesn't want it. More argument for a few minutes. She storms off. You get so hurt and frustrated you throw the cake away. She comes back on hearing the noise and bursts into tears. Even after sincerely apologizing, and trying to make it up to her, she's still angry and hurt by the incident more than a year later. You know she has an amazing memory and she'll be hurt by the incident as long as she lives. You know it will come back every time you do something to annoy or anger her. What do you do? You can't change the past. You can try to understand each other better and treat each other better, but that incident will always be there. Unless it can be forgiven. Is something like this unforgivable? :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #17,559 by boxley 11/9/01 4:12:25 PM Reply	To a woman yes I said something a tad thoughtless on how aparticular woman addressed me. I tend to be sarcastic sometimes. Its been 12 years and she wont say it out of spite to this very day. Par for the course bud, get used to it. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #17,563 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 4:28:10 PM 11/9/01 5:11:48 PM Reply	Put it this way... There are three times when I say I am sorry. There was something I didn't know/couldn't predict etc which caused things to work out as I did not intend. In which case I will say what that thing was. I am sorry about bumping into you, I didn't know you were right behind me! I regret what happened and have something specific I will work on to avoid that happening in the future. In which case I say what I have to work on. I am sorry, while I am involved in things, I am not very attentive. But just tell me when you want my attention, and I will make a point of focussing on you so I respond to whatever you have to say. I sympathize with someone for some grief they have or are going through. In which case I allude to the grief. I am so sorry for what your daughter is going through. I wish there was something I could do... Only in the third case do I consider my expression of my feelings to be important. In the first one the explanation is what counts. In the second it is the specific resolution to keep it from happening again (or at least to have it happen less often). In other words it is not my sincerity or desire that matters. Instead it is the demonstration of willingness to learn. As for the specific example, the only thing I can say is that the most important thing for married people to work out IMHO is how to resolve conflicts. Because it is a certainty that you will have conflicts, and no other kind of conflict hurts so much. But I will admit to this. My wife and I had certain fights that came up over and over again for years. What they were doesn't matter. That they hurt, does. That they happened time and again also does. Then we managed to stop having those fights. Completely. It took me a while to believe that they were really stopped. But they were. Without going into details, the very fights that were the cause of the most grief became by their resolution proof to both of us that when it counts, we really can change. So I believe that it is possible to get beyond an issue. Cheers, Ben PS My actual phrasing for point 2 is similar to something my wife and I have worked out. If she is willing to specifically ask for my attention up front, I will make a point of giving it. An agreement like that may help with the issue that you described. Edited by ben_tilly Nov. 9, 2001, 05:11:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #17,579 by Another Scott 11/9/01 5:08:29 PM Reply	Thanks. :-)
Post #17,618 by Ashton 11/9/01 7:53:52 PM Reply	Thanks for some lucid prose. It would seem that, while you 'keep accounts' (see no point in imagining you could.. forget, anyway?) there is an unusual aspect to your remembering. That is - you don't periodically 'stick pins in the effigy' (!) If that is too obtuse, I could expand. I do not doubt that you indeed 'work' as described - only I would wonder if, 'forgiveness' may not be so alien to you as you assert: it is / appears to be the periodic internal "dredging up and reexperiencing of a slight" - which is what many mean by - 'not forgiving'. Instead, you also notice periodically: if improvement has occurred. But all human relationship is based on the sum of all exchanges, some recalled more strongly than others. I see here a weighting which occurs - as naturally as the integral of the curve.. with inflection points noted :-\ufffd (Nahh - math will never apply re humans) Not trying to be cute here - but your view is more akin to ~ "a wiser 'forgiveness'" than not, as I perceive your words. Ashton

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