Put it this way...

Post #17,563 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 4:28:10 PM 11/9/01 5:11:48 PM Reply	Put it this way... There are three times when I say I am sorry. There was something I didn't know/couldn't predict etc which caused things to work out as I did not intend. In which case I will say what that thing was. I am sorry about bumping into you, I didn't know you were right behind me! I regret what happened and have something specific I will work on to avoid that happening in the future. In which case I say what I have to work on. I am sorry, while I am involved in things, I am not very attentive. But just tell me when you want my attention, and I will make a point of focussing on you so I respond to whatever you have to say. I sympathize with someone for some grief they have or are going through. In which case I allude to the grief. I am so sorry for what your daughter is going through. I wish there was something I could do... Only in the third case do I consider my expression of my feelings to be important. In the first one the explanation is what counts. In the second it is the specific resolution to keep it from happening again (or at least to have it happen less often). In other words it is not my sincerity or desire that matters. Instead it is the demonstration of willingness to learn. As for the specific example, the only thing I can say is that the most important thing for married people to work out IMHO is how to resolve conflicts. Because it is a certainty that you will have conflicts, and no other kind of conflict hurts so much. But I will admit to this. My wife and I had certain fights that came up over and over again for years. What they were doesn't matter. That they hurt, does. That they happened time and again also does. Then we managed to stop having those fights. Completely. It took me a while to believe that they were really stopped. But they were. Without going into details, the very fights that were the cause of the most grief became by their resolution proof to both of us that when it counts, we really can change. So I believe that it is possible to get beyond an issue. Cheers, Ben PS My actual phrasing for point 2 is similar to something my wife and I have worked out. If she is willing to specifically ask for my attention up front, I will make a point of giving it. An agreement like that may help with the issue that you described. Edited by ben_tilly Nov. 9, 2001, 05:11:48 PM EST Put it this way... There are three times when I say I am sorry. There was something I didn't know/couldn't predict etc which caused things to work out as I did not intend. In which case I will say what that thing was. I am sorry about bumping into you, I didn't know you were right behind me! I regret what happened and have something specific I will work on to avoid that happening in the future. In which case I say what I have to work on. I am sorry, while I am involved in things, I am not very attentive. But just tell me when you want my attention, and I will make a point of focussing on you so I respond to your attention. I sympathize with someone for some grief they have or are going through. In which case I allude to the grief. I am so sorry for what your daughter is going through. I wish there was something I could do... Only in the third case do I consider my expression of my feelings to be important. In the first one the explanation is what counts. In the second it is the specific resolution to keep it from happening again (or at least to have it happen less often). In other words it is not my sincerity or desire that matters. Instead it is the demonstration of willingness to learn. As for the specific example, the only thing I can say is that the most important thing for married people to work out IMHO is how to resolve conflicts. Because it is a certainty that you will have conflicts, and no other kind of conflict hurts so much. But I will admit to this. My wife and I had certain fights that came up over and over again for years. What they were doesn't matter. That they hurt, does. That they happened time and again also does. Then we managed to stop having those fights. Completely. It took me a while to believe that they were really stopped. But they were. Without going into details, the very fights that were the cause of the most grief became by their resolution proof to both of us that when it counts, we really can change. So I believe that it is possible to get beyond an issue. Cheers, Ben PS My actual phrasing for point 2 is similar to something my wife and I have worked out. If she is willing to specifically ask for my attention up front, I will make a point of giving it. An agreement like that may help with the issue that you described. Collapse All History
Post #17,579 by Another Scott 11/9/01 5:08:29 PM Reply	Thanks. :-)
Post #17,618 by Ashton 11/9/01 7:53:52 PM Reply	Thanks for some lucid prose. It would seem that, while you 'keep accounts' (see no point in imagining you could.. forget, anyway?) there is an unusual aspect to your remembering. That is - you don't periodically 'stick pins in the effigy' (!) If that is too obtuse, I could expand. I do not doubt that you indeed 'work' as described - only I would wonder if, 'forgiveness' may not be so alien to you as you assert: it is / appears to be the periodic internal "dredging up and reexperiencing of a slight" - which is what many mean by - 'not forgiving'. Instead, you also notice periodically: if improvement has occurred. But all human relationship is based on the sum of all exchanges, some recalled more strongly than others. I see here a weighting which occurs - as naturally as the integral of the curve.. with inflection points noted :-\ufffd (Nahh - math will never apply re humans) Not trying to be cute here - but your view is more akin to ~ "a wiser 'forgiveness'" than not, as I perceive your words. Ashton

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