I don't hold with forgiveness

Post #17,526 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 2:24:55 PM Reply	I don't hold with forgiveness As a concept it simply doesn't make sense to me. A fuller explanation takes some doing. You can find such an explanation at [link\|http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=105921&lastnode_id=3989\|this link]. Please note that there I try to lay out in words what I have believed at a gut level for a long time. If you understand what I say there, then you will understand why for me personally the entire Christian story of Jesus dying to save the world makes zero sense to me on any level, from emotional to intellectual. I won't say that it is why I am an atheist. Despite feeling that way from a young age, as a teenager I looked into several religions, some quite seriously. But it is the biggest reason why I am not a Christian. In fact even when I was conducting my own personal religious search, Christianity never attracted me. I would look at it, because so many people believed, and then put it down again in puzzlement. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,539 by ChrisR 11/9/01 2:58:57 PM Reply	Clartification... As a concept it simply doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that the concept of forgiveness is not useful for you personally? Or are you saying that forgiveness as a concept is not valid? A fuller explanation takes some doing. You can find such an explanation at this link. As I read it, you have two main points. First is tied to whether the forgiven person changes their behavior - those who say they're sorry and then repeat the behavior. This argument basically says that because some people have relapses, that one should never exercise forgiveness. The second argument has to do with one's predictability of future behavior based on past behavior. The idea is that the person doesn't really need forgiveness but rather needs to change the underlying behavior. Problem with such a behaviorilist approach is that it doesn't factor in that we are dealing with social interaction. In social interactions, a person saying that he forgives another for transgressions may well make the difference in determining the future interaction. A person that is shown love (perhaps that's a nebulous concept as well) is more likely to examine their conscience than one who is simply told to alter their behavior.
Post #17,550 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 3:57:24 PM Reply	All of the above It makes no sense to me. Literally. I cannot see the sense of forgiving others. If others offer to forgive things I have done, I am left puzzled. When others tell me they are sorry, I am left genuinely baffled at what I should do. What you are saying about the social value doesn't ring true to me, except in the most trivial ways. There are people who expect you to accept their apologies, and will get upset if you don't. This is true. However the vast majority of the social value is, in my experience, captured if people understand that they really can change my impression of them. I may not forget a negative interaction, and I certainly didn't forgive it. But still I am generally left willing (at least the first few times) to be polite to you, and I stand ready to learn that either said event was non-representative for you, or that you have changed. In other words the actual substance of what people seem to be asking from getting forgiveness I offer fairly freely. Furthermore I have far too often seen the opposite tendancy. People who do things, regret them, ask for forgiveness, get it, then do the same things again. For a classic example, alcoholic parents are infamous for acting this way. (Ditto with domestic violence.) When you give forgiveness, what lesson are you handing out? Too often it is apparently that, "I can do anything I want, as long as I sincerely ask for forgiveness later." Is that really the lesson I want to give? A related concept that is nonsense to me is "fault". Assigning blame seems to me to be supremely useless. Here is an example. My light turns green, and I start across the street. Some speeding bozo runs his red light and slams into me at full speed. My car is totaled. Whose fault is that? Well obviously his. I was driving, within the speed limit, according to the posted rules and lights. He was speeding, disobeyed traffic signals, and hit me. If my thinking stopped, as too many people's thinking does, at the idea of "fault", this is the end of the thought process. But the fact is that half of all accidents in the US happen at intersections, and half of those within 5 seconds of a light change. So by the simple act of not being in the middle of an intersection within 5 seconds of a light change, I can avoid a quarter of possible accidents. In other words it wasn't my fault that I was in that accident, but there is something proactive that I could do to avoid more accidents. Which is why to me fault is useful when dealing with legal situations written in terms of fault, and is otherwise a useless concept. I don't care if it was my fault, your fault, or beyond human control. I want to know whether there is anything useful which can be learned to prevent there being a next time. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,558 by boxley 11/9/01 4:09:24 PM Reply	Cheese! whats yer thoughts on TP up or down? :) tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #17,564 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 4:31:22 PM Reply	You really want to know? I leave the seat on the toilet down, and the only case where I think the toilet paper alignment matters if if you have a cat. If the TP comes over from the top, kitty can empty the roll really easily, but not if it comes out of the bottom. So if I had a cat, I would have it come out of the bottom, but I don't so it is random. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,580 by boxley 11/9/01 5:12:10 PM Reply	Well small chirrun have the same effect seats should be left up until male chile aim=inside the toilet. After that default is down so you dont fall in in the middle of the night. thanx, bill very well thought out on position forgiveness tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #17,671 by brettj 11/10/01 9:39:32 AM Reply	Not assigning fault and the relation to forgiveness. In your intersection accident scenario, both people can be seen at fault: One driver for not being offensive enough and one for not being defensive enough. Certainly the maniac speeder is more at fault if you really want to get into it but the point is that both people must look at themselves as being responsible for their well-being. The same can be said for forgiveness, perhaps? You may think forgiveness is not important because it will not change the other person, but it could change you! You can choose to keep negative thoughts about others or you can choose to get rid of them. How do you get rid of negative thoughts about others? Forgiveness is one way. Moving to another state, job or relationship are other ways. One problem solving lesson I learned early on is: "Remove the cause or dampen the effect". In my opinion, forgiveness is a way to remove the negativity from a perception (right or wrong) that someone has wronged you. Of course you may still need to take legal/defensive action against the wrong-doer but that doesn't eliminate the need to remove the negative feelings that exist, unless of course one likes to harbor negative feelings towards others. In summary: Sometimes it isn't the other person that will benefit by changing, sometimes it's important that we change/grow/adapt. Sometimes, our change will cause others to change, sometimes not. Without change, everything stays the same. (:
Post #17,681 by ben_tilly 11/10/01 1:50:57 PM Reply	I think you missed my point My point is that fault goes hand in hand with concepts of blame. But there are multiple layers and kinds of causes for every action, and I think the relationship between blame and cause is tenuous at best. In that example you say that the person who was driving within the traffic rules was at fault, if just less? To me that is just stretching the concept of fault beyond the breaking point. If everyone drove like that person, most intersection accidents would not happen. I didn't stipulate that said person was aware of how much they could reduce their odds of being in an accident with a simple change in driving habits. In fact driving within the laws is reasonable. Millions of people drive exactly like that person and don't get into an accident. There is an element of bad luck there. So how then are they at fault? Does it help any to walk up and say, "That accident is partly your fault. You can blame yourself for never having taken a defensive driving course." I have known people who seem to think that way. Every time they learn how to do something better they spend so much time kicking themselves for mistakes past that it is a miracle they ever learn. In fact some don't. Now perhaps my point will be better made with an example with more emotional impact. So let's take the example of rape. Clearly the rapist is at fault for raping. But that doesn't mean that there are not proactive things that a potential victim can do to avoid being raped. I don't think that many would say, "It is your fault you got raped, you didn't take a self-defence course!" But taking a self-defence course will reduce a woman's chances of being (successfully) raped. You see, being able to separate thinking about what can be done proactively from notions of blame and fault makes it possible to discuss and think more calmly about things. As for your comments about forgiveness, please read the rest of what I have written in this thread. I think you will find that for me the traditional notions of forgiveness tend to be far less relevant in that way than they apparently are for most people. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,711 by brettj 11/10/01 8:17:35 PM Reply	Re: I think you missed my point I think we are arguing the same point. There is no such thing as an accident, there is only cause and effect. Assigning fault is not the point in our conversation. I think the point is that if you want to protect yourself from certain types of problems then you need to learn about causes and effects in order to reduce the chances that you will suffer from such problems. This does not guarantee that you won't get into an "accident" or suffer an attack by a criminal but it should improve your odds of survival, as opposed to someone who has not had prior education. Of course, no one can prepare for everything so we have to adapt to our environment, eh?
Post #17,716 by ben_tilly 11/10/01 8:59:56 PM Reply	Um, not quite My point is that concepts like blame and fault obscure our thinking about causes and possible actions. (Here where I say "cause" I really mean "contributing factors".) Blame and fault are tied up with the concept that there are one or more identifiable actors that caused the event to happen. Find who caused it, and that is your problem. But this only takes into account the most blatant level of cause and effect. Often it is useful to think in terms of more remote contributing factors. For a programming example, in many languages you compare elements with ==, and assign with =. Well a certain amount of the time you are going to miss one of the ='s signs. That is just a common human typing error. This is why many wise programmers deliberately write things like this odd-looking: if (5 == $variable_here) { ... } Yeah, it looks odd. But if you make that typo now, it will be more likely to be caught by your compiler or interpreter. (I have seen people point out that if you turn on warnings, it can catch a missing ='s sign in what looks like a comparison. So why have the habit? But now to a different compiler or different language, and the warning stops working, but the habit still does.) This is orthogonal to the question of whether there is an element of luck and accident in the world. Whether or not you are ultimately fatalistic or think that chance is real, from a practical point of view we don't know the future or the rest of the world, and we will have accidents. But the fact that things are random and unable to be predicted in detail doesn't mean that they are uncharacterizable. Above in the programming example, the tip is valuable even if you regard all typos as accidents. It doesn't matter why you make typos. The fact is that you do. And certain typos are more common than others. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,718 by brettj 11/10/01 9:45:55 PM Reply	Life is sorta like an onion It has many layers. (you'll have to forgive me for digressing, I saw Shrek last night.) I think I finally see your point. The journey was quite intriguing. P.S. Do you agree with Asimov's statement that "Luck is the laymen's term for genius"? Just curious.
Post #17,774 by ben_tilly 11/11/01 4:05:24 PM Reply	I am mixed on the Asimov quote I do believe that there is an element of luck in life. However I also believe that those who are prepared for it are more likely to notice and fully use things that come their way. Furthermore it is also true that people like to protect their egos . One of many ways is to avoid comparison with people they think more successful. This can be done by putting them on a pedestal, cutting them down to size, or ascribing their successes to luck. For all of these reasons, even though I believe that some things just happen, I agree with Asimov that people who seem to have "all of the luck" generally don't. And people often ascribe things to luck that aren't really luck. But a final note. One point made in [link\|http://www.jimcollins.com/ViewPub.asp?id=186\|this article] by Jim Collins is that the very best CEOs always look to outside forces to ascribe success to. That means people around them, circumstances, and if all else fails, luck. So even the very best, it seems, may confuse their own accomplishments with sheer luck. :-) Cheers, Ben
Post #17,782 by Ashton 11/11/01 5:09:50 PM Reply	Karma? No, I have no slightest illusion that this concept (either) might be 'discussed' in any profitable manner. Mean only that - within context of above and your cite: One may make as good a case for 'Luck' being merely an (only seemingly 'logically' inexplicable) Other process, a super- (er meta- ?) process atop the other appearances we imagine are random.. or realize we have no clue about. At least Karma connotes an internally consistent metaphor, tied into other phenomena: no matter the impossibility of 'proving' (!) the ephemeral (or at least metaphysical, by def'n). 'Luck' is just so... conceptually sloppy! Y'know? :-\ufffd Ashton
Post #17,801 by ben_tilly 11/11/01 8:18:57 PM Reply	Which type of karma? There is something like karma that I can accept. Then there is the popular version. The two are diametrically opposed. The popular version of karma is that we are rewarded or punished in this life for the sins and good deeds of lives past. The world is fundamentally fair, we just don't see in this life the full causes. This is a theory that is very comforting for the powers that be, and is good for soothing the downtrodden masses. Who after all must deserve a little downtrodding, else they would not be in the downtrodden masses! But I can't buy it. Then there is another version of karma. It is the idea that your actions establish patterns that the world reacts to. Your actions create ongoing patterns with their own consequences. This isn't a theory that says that what happens is based on any cosmic fairness. Just patterns. The world is how it is because that is a stable pattern, and not out of any cosmic fairness. This is a theory which the rulers don't like so much. It says that they rule because someone somewhere decided to enforce power and managed to succeed and hold it. Armed with a theory like this, the downtrodden masses are liable to think, "Hey, we are downtrodden because we accept downtrodding. Doing something about it may be dangerous, etc. But it is up to us to do something about it if we want to avoid remaining downtrodden!" But from my (admittedly limited) reading of Eastern religions, this interpretation of karma is in perfect accord with what they say. (But note that the explicit goal of Buddhism is to try to break all of the patterns you are involve with. I do not think this possible, nor do I think that attempting it is good. But then again I am not a Buddhist.) BTW karma is not just an Eastern concept. While Western religions may not believe in life after life with karma ongoing, karma is the concept encapsulated in popular sayings like, "You reap what you sow", "What goes around, comes around", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and so on. Cheers, Ben
Post #17,832 by Ashton 11/12/01 5:39:14 AM Reply	Between the two, the latter. The first idea - reincarnation (with 'forgetfulness' of some prearrangements made, pre-birth: of what is to be 'worked out on the Wheel? this time around') - does, as you suggest, mollify the Untouchables [cosmic plan and all] and facilitate the maintenance of privilege for the few. There are many reasons why I also find that model mechanistic and unconvincing. The second view is ~ close enough to work with as a replacement for Luck, IMhO. Undeniably (per historic records) certain individual persons have profoundly altered civilization's next course. Their behavior, discoveries - sometimes their general wisdom and.. altogether - what else but charisma? might be the common denominator. Thus "a One" Can affect all others, near-term and/or indefinitely. Agreed - any 'cosmic definition of fairness' is likely a Red Herring. While this branch of 'Karma' suffices as replacement for Luck IMO: it certainly doesn't settle metaphysical questions, reveal Truth - or any of those other wishful-things we imagine can be achieved with enough words (or a few Good Ones, even). That's the best we can do though - given common referents for words. So I'd leave it there re Karma/Luck. If 'the world' is indeed maya/illusion: most things we'd say about 'it' would be circular anyway. Odd consequence though: all the 'physical, measurable' becomes evanescent and without any permanence; the impalpable er ineffable, becomes: that literally timeless [Reality] whose attributes we can't fathom, decribe! yet (some say) ... might be 'reachable', from life (never mind the 'death' bugaboo -- that might not be Real either). :-\ufffd And people imagine Chess to be a challenging game (!) Now were there any sense of the rules for a Master Game - hmmm maybe there are. Namaste Y'all Ashton
Post #18,163 by brettj 11/13/01 9:10:16 PM Reply	Just being aware of the question is worthwhile. And, once again, I appreciate your detailed answer. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner but biz is getting a little hectic lately. With regards to luck, I prefer to consider the "luck" part of luck to be "random chance". I agree that being aware and prepared for random chance improves the odds of a person being "lucky". I've read your CEO article before (you posted it back in 1999?) and I think that level 5 CEO's were merely being humble when they credited their, er the company success, to luck. Humility is definetely an attribute of top-notch CEO's. IMO, luck more likely applies to Level 1 CEO's that just happen to be in the right place at the right time than it does to those that reach Level 5 status.
Post #17,543 by Another Scott 11/9/01 3:19:03 PM Reply	Thanks. And a little story. I appreciate all the responses I've seen. Perhaps there are semantics buried in what I'm asking and what we're saying. In your PerlMonks piece you wrote, As for forgiveness, I won't give it, and you hopefully don't need it. This is not personal. I simply do not agree with the word "sorry". I have seen too many people who will do mean things, say, "sorry" - and then having been forgiven will go ahead and do the same mean things again. After all, why not when forgiveness is so easily come by, what value does "personal responsibility" have? This paragraph helps me understand you a bit better. I think I understand what you're saying, but it seems to me that you're mixing up perfunctory and true expressions of regret. Just because others may be insincere in their expressions of concern or love or regret doesn't mean that yours need to be. My opinion is that forgiveness (again in the #1 sense) isn't something to be asked for nor given lightly. It should come after reflection and a true meeting of the minds. You also wrote, However I also try to avoid grudges. I try to seperate the person from the event. If your behaviour from now on indicates improvement, you will never hear from me about this again. I won't forgive you, but I also won't hold it against you. Because while I don't believe in repentance, I do believe in learning. Avoiding grudges seems to me to be a form of forgiveness. I don't view forgiveness as being a wiping clean of the slate. I don't think it's possible to "forgive and forget" but I think we should try to if the offender is sincere. Let's consider a, purely hypothetical, example. Really. No, I mean it.... Say it is your wife's birthday. You've picked up a piece of cake for her from the bakery on the way home. She's had a really bad day at work. After dinner that you prepared, you get the piece of cake ready for her, but she's tied up for a few minutes. You sit down to watch some TV or read IWeThey for a few minutes. She finishes what she was doing and comes in. You've gotten engrossed in the show or don't want to lose your train of thought and want to wait a couple of minutes. She gets upset, storms off and yells at you, bringing up some of the previous things you've done to annoy and upset her, etc. You know she's had a bad day so she's on edge, but you don't feel that you've been as bad as she says. An argument ensues. You're both angry and hurt and upset. You try, without much success, to calm each other down and say let's have the cake. She's still upset and says, multiple times, no she doesn't want it. More argument for a few minutes. She storms off. You get so hurt and frustrated you throw the cake away. She comes back on hearing the noise and bursts into tears. Even after sincerely apologizing, and trying to make it up to her, she's still angry and hurt by the incident more than a year later. You know she has an amazing memory and she'll be hurt by the incident as long as she lives. You know it will come back every time you do something to annoy or anger her. What do you do? You can't change the past. You can try to understand each other better and treat each other better, but that incident will always be there. Unless it can be forgiven. Is something like this unforgivable? :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #17,559 by boxley 11/9/01 4:12:25 PM Reply	To a woman yes I said something a tad thoughtless on how aparticular woman addressed me. I tend to be sarcastic sometimes. Its been 12 years and she wont say it out of spite to this very day. Par for the course bud, get used to it. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #17,563 by ben_tilly 11/9/01 4:28:10 PM 11/9/01 5:11:48 PM Reply	Put it this way... There are three times when I say I am sorry. There was something I didn't know/couldn't predict etc which caused things to work out as I did not intend. In which case I will say what that thing was. I am sorry about bumping into you, I didn't know you were right behind me! I regret what happened and have something specific I will work on to avoid that happening in the future. In which case I say what I have to work on. I am sorry, while I am involved in things, I am not very attentive. But just tell me when you want my attention, and I will make a point of focussing on you so I respond to whatever you have to say. I sympathize with someone for some grief they have or are going through. In which case I allude to the grief. I am so sorry for what your daughter is going through. I wish there was something I could do... Only in the third case do I consider my expression of my feelings to be important. In the first one the explanation is what counts. In the second it is the specific resolution to keep it from happening again (or at least to have it happen less often). In other words it is not my sincerity or desire that matters. Instead it is the demonstration of willingness to learn. As for the specific example, the only thing I can say is that the most important thing for married people to work out IMHO is how to resolve conflicts. Because it is a certainty that you will have conflicts, and no other kind of conflict hurts so much. But I will admit to this. My wife and I had certain fights that came up over and over again for years. What they were doesn't matter. That they hurt, does. That they happened time and again also does. Then we managed to stop having those fights. Completely. It took me a while to believe that they were really stopped. But they were. Without going into details, the very fights that were the cause of the most grief became by their resolution proof to both of us that when it counts, we really can change. So I believe that it is possible to get beyond an issue. Cheers, Ben PS My actual phrasing for point 2 is similar to something my wife and I have worked out. If she is willing to specifically ask for my attention up front, I will make a point of giving it. An agreement like that may help with the issue that you described. Edited by ben_tilly Nov. 9, 2001, 05:11:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #17,579 by Another Scott 11/9/01 5:08:29 PM Reply	Thanks. :-)
Post #17,618 by Ashton 11/9/01 7:53:52 PM Reply	Thanks for some lucid prose. It would seem that, while you 'keep accounts' (see no point in imagining you could.. forget, anyway?) there is an unusual aspect to your remembering. That is - you don't periodically 'stick pins in the effigy' (!) If that is too obtuse, I could expand. I do not doubt that you indeed 'work' as described - only I would wonder if, 'forgiveness' may not be so alien to you as you assert: it is / appears to be the periodic internal "dredging up and reexperiencing of a slight" - which is what many mean by - 'not forgiving'. Instead, you also notice periodically: if improvement has occurred. But all human relationship is based on the sum of all exchanges, some recalled more strongly than others. I see here a weighting which occurs - as naturally as the integral of the curve.. with inflection points noted :-\ufffd (Nahh - math will never apply re humans) Not trying to be cute here - but your view is more akin to ~ "a wiser 'forgiveness'" than not, as I perceive your words. Ashton

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