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New I'm not sure about a non-theist, because I'm not one.
I think more than one person in this thread has confused the issue. I'm not talking about one's true religion (that which is entirely subjective and cannot be discussed in any meaningful way - see, for instance, Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, "The name that can be named is not the eternal Name." and Chapter 56 "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.").

This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism.

"Religious" Christians, Muslims and Jews do no accept such passages in their respective texts and instead "interpret" or "spin" what the words mean. In short, they do not practice their religion in the manner it is taught. I would have thought holding such would not be the source of any controversy.
bcnu,
Mikem

"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
New So which passage says that we should commit violence?
This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism.
Can't speak much about Islam, not being aware of their texts or history. From the Jewish standpoint, I think you'll find the Talmud is pretty important in the interpretation of the Bible. From a Catholic standpoint, the interpretation falls in a combination of the Bible, tradition, and authority. I could dig up the Catholic position on humility, grace and violence if you'd like, but I rather doubt they would support your position. Which leaves us with the Evangelical Christians (or Protestants if you'd rather). Most of their interpretation falls under the domain of Sola Scriptura. Even that won't help your position because your position assumes that their interpretation matches what you take to be obvious.

So are you saying that you know more about these various religious traditions than do the practitioners themselves? I generally hold the individual accountable for their actions and I find no evidence that being proud is considered a virtue (it's one of the 7 deadly sins). Most traditions, be it Eastern or Western, hold humility to be a virtue. In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state.

From a Christian perspective, there's a large number of things which are ignored in the "Old Testament". Eating habits are the obvious example (not many Kosher Christians). Early Christianity even wrestled with whether to accept the early texts, preferring the new fangled testament. In the end, it was decided that they were a necessary ingredient to interpreting the New Testament, but neither were all of the pre & proscriptions regarded as relevant.

Anyhow, is there anything in the New Testament that makes your point? From a Christian perspective, the Old Testament is only relevant from the standpoint of the interpretation of Jesus.

Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs. But when it comes to the "sacred scriptures", what you are assuming is (a) there's only one interpretation (b) the various texts that make up the whole are consistent and uniform; and (c) individuals are not afforded the luxory of making their own choices about what things mean.

I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end.
New Wow, great response!
...In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state.


I wholly agree here.

Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs....


And you can substitute politics for the word religion in that sentence as well, and probably many others.

I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end.


My thoughts exactly, great post!

Nightowl >8#



"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
     Heartbreaking - (tuberculosis) - (113)
         I'm confused...--- here's the story - (Nightowl) - (1)
             Alana is a fairly common name. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         A thousand years in prison... - (pwhysall) - (109)
             I have that sense as well. - (mmoffitt) - (106)
                 It's not about religion - (imric) - (105)
                     But religion bars any reason. - (mmoffitt) - (104)
                         Could substitute "politics" for "religion" there. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             Or anything else - (Nightowl)
                         "getting the lunatic to abandon what he holds most dear" - (imric) - (35)
                             Any? Perhaps. - (mmoffitt) - (34)
                                 Re: Any? Perhaps. - (Nightowl) - (9)
                                     If a Christian does not believe anyone should be condemned.. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         There's a difference - (Nightowl)
                                     Uhhh, Owlsley... - (jb4) - (6)
                                         Let me clarify - (Nightowl) - (5)
                                             Re: Let me clarify - (jb4) - (3)
                                                 Not forgetting... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                     How could I forget...! - (jb4)
                                                 Unfortunately (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                             On Christian churches... (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                 You sure? - (imric) - (23)
                                     Very well stated - (Nightowl)
                                     I am condemning that which nurtures... - (mmoffitt) - (21)
                                         "History is on my side" - (imric) - (18)
                                             Alexander of Macedonia, - (Arkadiy)
                                             Religion is not the only motivation for slaughter. - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                 And, of course - (imric)
                                                 The "chosen people" do have many more - (Arkadiy)
                                             "You Have to be Carefully Taught - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                 For Those Too Lazy To Google - (pwhysall)
                                             See Jesus 'quote' in this thread re:The Civil War. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                                 See my first post, re justification. - (imric) - (10)
                                                     Well yes - that's 'true' - (Ashton) - (7)
                                                         Believe it or not, I understand and somewhat agree - (imric) - (6)
                                                             'Religion' oft has little or zippo to do with 'spirituality' - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                 Uh huh. - (imric) - (4)
                                                                     A little more explanation please? - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                         With Ash, it can be sometimes hard, - (imric) - (1)
                                                                             Trust me, I know that - (Nightowl)
                                                                     Heh.. I 'splain how ya can end war n'stuff (new thread) - (Ashton)
                                                     I see nothing wrong with that posistion - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                                         *smile* -NT - (imric)
                                         Well, I consider that... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                             You'd be wrong - (jake123)
                         The base of religion is faith - (Simon_Jester) - (65)
                             Counter-example to your last. - (mmoffitt) - (63)
                                 Huh? No way! - (Nightowl)
                                 What you just said is a sin - (Arkadiy) - (57)
                                     Just read the texts, man. - (mmoffitt) - (56)
                                         The Lord - (Arkadiy) - (55)
                                             Exactly - (Nightowl)
                                             The [owner] thing wasn't mine. - (mmoffitt) - (53)
                                                 None so dumb as who won't think. -NT - (Arkadiy) - (52)
                                                     Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (51)
                                                         That's evidence? - (imric)
                                                         What third parties? - (Arkadiy) - (49)
                                                             Interpretation? You're interpretting ferchrissakes. - (mmoffitt) - (48)
                                                                 Not even close - (Nightowl) - (6)
                                                                     <sigh> - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                                                                         Not sure - (Nightowl) - (4)
                                                                             The nut. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                 Ah ok - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                     NO! - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                         Same thing - (Nightowl)
                                                                 No kudos to you for repeating - (imric) - (8)
                                                                     Huh? - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                         Go ahead - change your point - (imric) - (6)
                                                                             Yes! - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                 *chuckle* - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                     True, but - (Nightowl)
                                                                             Hey, that's *graduate* philosophies ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                 Is it? - (imric) - (1)
                                                                                     Re: Is it? - (Nightowl)
                                                                 Ego is Id - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                     I'm not sure about a non-theist, because I'm not one. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                         So which passage says that we should commit violence? - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                             Wow, great response! - (Nightowl)
                                                                 I guess it all depends on what's - (Arkadiy) - (27)
                                                                     I could be wrong about this, but I think "case" - (mmoffitt) - (26)
                                                                         It's a parable - (Arkadiy) - (25)
                                                                             Re: It's a parable - (Nightowl) - (3)
                                                                                 "New Covenant" hmmmmmmm..... - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                     Ooops -- ignore.. moving to religion as requested - (Nightowl) - (1)
                                                                                         I have no idea what you're talking about (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                                                             The "unbelievers" are a class. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                                                                 How is that clear? - (Nightowl)
                                                                                 Oh my. A class. - (Arkadiy) - (18)
                                                                                     Psssst! Don't tell Bryce..... -NT - (jb4) - (12)
                                                                                         Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth... -NT - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                                                             And what did poor bastards do to deserver such fate? -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                                             6' deep 6' long and 4' wide -NT - (boxley) - (8)
                                                                                                 4' wide?????? - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                                     take a measuring tape to your next funeral 4' wide -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                         Was just at a wake (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                                                                                                 And it's Christian thing to share... - (a6l6e6x) - (4)
                                                                                                     Okay, that's it - (jake123) - (3)
                                                                                                         Well, we tried earlier - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                                                             YOU ALL SUCK - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Oddly enough, I got it (new thread) - (orion)
                                                                                             Since when was Bryce meek? -NT - (jb4)
                                                                                     Almost, but not quite. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                                                         Read it carefully - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                                                                             You made my point. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                 Ashton mode on - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                                                     I like [referent] mode better. - (Ashton)
                                 Re: Counter-example to your last. - (Simon_Jester)
                                 No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition! - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Thanks! I was waiting for that ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                 And who commissioned that Inquisition? Church or state? -NT - (FuManChu)
                             Been there. Done that. - (Ashton)
             Electicity is quicker and cheaper! - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 You got you a mean streak in ya.... -NT - (jb4)
         One note (images included) - (jake123)

Dr. Peter prescribes a nice warm cup of shut the hell up.
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