Post #174,841
9/17/04 4:51:04 PM
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The base of religion is faith
and faith is the belief in something with cannot be proved.
That is not the same as "belief in something beyond reason". (ie: it's possible to believe in a religion and still be reasonable.) Being reasonable is looking at items that can be proved and acknowledging that exist and have influence.
Furthermore, it is possible to be "beyond reason" and for religion not to play a factor. (Example: a psychotic who isn't religious.)
As a sidebar, I think your argument of "Without first getting a zealot to abandon his religion, you simply cannot get to any shared base from which to negogiate." is misleading. The implied assumption is that it's the religious belief at the heart of the matter that is the problem (possible, but unlikely). Most cases do allow allow for a shared base from which to negogiate if you look at the religion closely.
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Post #174,848
9/17/04 5:25:06 PM
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Counter-example to your last.
Shared base: "All should be allowed to live."
Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine."
That's core, man. There is no dealing with that and that attitude prevails in all the Mesopotamian belief systems. And I'm not talking just jihadists here, remember the Spanish Inquisition?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,849
9/17/04 5:32:08 PM
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Huh? No way!
Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine." That's core, man. There is no dealing with that and that attitude prevails in all the Mesopotamian belief systems. And I'm not talking just jihadists here, remember the Spanish Inquisition? Wrong, not even close. Christians do not believe that. All people are equal in the sight of God, no one is worth less. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,850
9/17/04 5:35:55 PM
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What you just said is a sin
in Christianity, a violation of Torah in Judaism, and probably just as bad in Islam (not familiar enough to know). It's possible to imagine such religion, but I haven't seen it yet.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,854
9/17/04 5:44:57 PM
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Just read the texts, man.
I've gotta run, but here's a quick sample from "Christianity".
First, Kill the inappreciative slaves... Yeah, that's humane.
Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of
that servant will come in a day when
he looketh not for him, and at an
hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint
him his portion with the
unbelievers. And that servant, which
knew his lord's will, and prepared
not himself, neither did according
to his will, shall be beaten with
many stripes. But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of
stripes, shall be beaten with few
stripes. For unto whomsoever much is
given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have
committed much, of him they will ask
the more."
And here Jesus commands slaves to obey their masters (guess he'd have fought with the Confederacy, huh?)
Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to
the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of
heart, fearing God.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,855
9/17/04 5:48:28 PM
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The Lord
Not you. The Lord.
It's not yours to cut anybody down or appoint someone's lot.
Your "[owner]" thing is simply pathetic.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,862
9/17/04 6:08:52 PM
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Exactly
And taking scriptures out of context is also not a good way to show what their meanings are.
For example:
Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to
the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of
heart, fearing God.
Those of us who have chosen to be, ARE servants of God. Not really slaves, although you can bandy the words around. Bottom line is that we accept Him and CHOOSE to serve Him, which is much much different.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #174,877
9/17/04 7:35:06 PM
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The [owner] thing wasn't mine.
I was quoting some one else and had copied that from an email I'd received. I think it was originally schlocked off a website, but I cannot find a link.
All that aside, it is interesting that you didn't have a comment about Jesus, and the post actually makes my point better if it is your "Lord". Because, according to the Christian text, you should be beaten/killed for not doing as the Lord commands. Hmmmm.... now why does that sound familiar?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,885
9/17/04 8:16:32 PM
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None so dumb as who won't think.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #174,921
9/18/04 7:18:03 AM
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Heh.
Seeking evidence from third parties for one's position is "dumb". Of course it is, for a believer.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #174,924
9/18/04 8:46:27 AM
9/18/04 8:48:48 AM
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That's evidence?
at best it was an assertion. No backing facts. The assertion happens to be true, BUT - it in no way invalidates ANYTHING I posted.
In fact, you have yet to contradict anything I've said, save by assertion.
But that's all right. (whoops! Clicked too soon). I'm sure that those that opposed slavery did so because they WEREN'T religious.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
Sept. 18, 2004, 08:48:48 AM EDT
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Post #174,941
9/18/04 12:41:20 PM
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What third parties?
You quoted the Gospel and grossly distorted its meaning. COngratulation: you and bin Laden agree on the meaning on religion. The fact that all truly religious people disagree with you must be of no consequence. Picking an interpretation and sticking to it - how religious of you. How dumb.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,170
9/20/04 12:09:25 PM
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Interpretation? You're interpretting ferchrissakes.
And Kudos to you for interpretting. Let me be clear: A plain-text reading of any of the so-called religious texts coming out of the ME at once causes the "believer" to have a grotesque sense of superiority and eagerness to expunge any "non-believers" from humanity.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,173
9/20/04 12:33:59 PM
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Not even close
...Let me be clear: A plain-text reading of any of the so-called religious texts coming out of the ME at once causes the "believer" to have a grotesque sense of superiority and eagerness to expunge any "non-believers" from humanity. If you're saying that by reading the Bible I have a sense of superiority and eagerness to "expunge" all non-believers from humanity, you would be completely mistaken. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,179
9/20/04 12:42:10 PM
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<sigh>
If you're saying that by reading the Bible I have a sense of superiority and eagerness to "expunge" all non-believers from humanity, you would be completely mistaken.
"A plain text reading". The only Christians I know (and I count among them most of the Christians here) that are both self-proclaimed Christians and decent human beings are the Christians who don't take too seriously the medieval superstitious tripe that comprises most of the Christian Bible.
Does that help? In short, if you "read the Bible" without rejecting that which is vulgar, indecent and inhumane, then ....
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,181
9/20/04 12:46:07 PM
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Not sure
Because I don't know what you mean by your last statement. I just know I don't feel the ways you described, no matter what I think about what I read.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,184
9/20/04 12:54:57 PM
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The nut.
If you don't "interpret the Bible" when you read it and instead take what it says literally, then you become "superior" and want to beat, maim, enslave, kill, etc., all non-believers.
This is not unique to Christian writings, that kind of text is present in all the so-called religious texts arising out of the ME.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,186
9/20/04 1:00:14 PM
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Ah ok
The ME is the Mesopotamian Era, right?
Well then it's clear to me that the Bible (or other texts) aren't what's evil, it's the way individuals interpret the words that can become evil. So I still stand on my point that religion isn't the root of all evil, but people interpret it in their own ways and turn those interpretations into evil behaviors on their part.
I think we've come full-circle here, there isn't much more to say.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,203
9/20/04 2:56:43 PM
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NO!
Well then it's clear to me that the Bible (or other texts) aren't what's evil, it's the way individuals interpret the words that can become evil.
NOT AT ALL. It IS the interpretation that makes it humane! The plain text explicitly calls for atrocities to be committed against any and all non-believers! That is WITHOUT interpretation.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,213
9/20/04 3:28:44 PM
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Same thing
They either interpret it LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY.
It's still all about how people take the words and their meanings.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,187
9/20/04 1:04:54 PM
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No kudos to you for repeating
without evidence of any kind that this is the case.
Without any response (outside of repetition) to any of my posts.
Pound the table, m'lad! Pound the table!
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #175,201
9/20/04 2:54:43 PM
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Huh?
Are you claiming that the "sacred books" of J-C-M do not contain passages like the one I already cited? What is your point? Is religion the only thing that causes people to commit atrocities? Of course not. But it is among the very, very few that promise ever-lasting-life, (or virgins, depending on the flavor) explicitly in the text of their manuals/Bibles in plain, translated, English. You don't think that's worthy of condemning? A belief system that literally encourages atrocities?
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,207
9/20/04 3:14:38 PM
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Go ahead - change your point
after it became apparent that you were wrong.
Lessee now - you claimed that:
"it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil."
and are unable to support that statement; unable to back up the idea that the flaw exists in humanity with or without religion.
'it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like"'
(underlining mine)
yet with all of your mocking and insults, you yourself are guilty of this (simply refusing to use godlike in reference to yourself does not absolve you of this attitude of 'superiority') type of thinking. Unless you are religious (and this I doubt), you yourself break your own line of reasoning by your behaviour. YOur philosophy is 'superior' to religion, therefor it is OK to deride religion and religious people, no?
Bah. It is impossible to reason with people like you, unless you are broken of your sophmoric philosophies.
*chuckle*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #175,214
9/20/04 3:30:53 PM
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Yes!
yet with all of your mocking and insults, you yourself are guilty of this (simply refusing to use godlike in reference to yourself does not absolve you of this attitude of 'superiority') type of thinking. Unless you are religious (and this I doubt), you yourself break your own line of reasoning by your behaviour. YOur philosophy is 'superior' to religion, therefor it is OK to deride religion and religious people, no? Bah. It is impossible to reason with people like you, unless you are broken of your sophmoric philosophies. Very very well said. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,215
9/20/04 3:33:05 PM
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*chuckle*
The second was a joke; a rephrasing of his own words.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #175,222
9/20/04 3:46:11 PM
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True, but
it also points out that you can't reason with someone who refuses to look at things reasonably or refuses to have an open mind about something.
But yeah, I wondered if the second part was a joke. I liked the first part best.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,218
9/20/04 3:39:17 PM
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Hey, that's *graduate* philosophies ;-)
"it IS religion that is at the root of most (all?) evil."
and are unable to support that statement; unable to back up the idea that the flaw exists in humanity with or without religion. I can support that argument. The (all?) is clearly a question. Practicing a religion "as it is written" is what lead to the Crusades, the prosecution of Gallileo, the horrors of the corrupt early Popes, the slaughter of the native peoples of North America, most - if not all - of the thousands of years of violence in the ME, The Spanish Inquisition, etc. ad plenty-o-nauseum.
'it is religion alone that causes that subset to hold that they are more "God-like"'
What else besides religion teaches any of its adherence that they know God and/or are the Chosen People? That only by believing as we do can you enter heaven? I don't know of anything other than religion that promises eternal life, just for a "belief". Do you? bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,226
9/20/04 4:00:05 PM
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Is it?
I can support that argument. The (all?) is clearly a question. Practicing a religion "as it is written" is what lead to the Crusades, the prosecution of Gallileo, the horrors of the corrupt early Popes, the slaughter of the native peoples of North America, most - if not all - of the thousands of years of violence in the ME, The Spanish Inquisition, etc. ad plenty-o-nauseum. And I think it is unsupported - I believe that most of these horrors were done for secular reasons, and justified by religious argument. I believe that most historians wou;ld back me up, as well. Gallileo threatened the secular power of the Papacy, for instance - the corrupt popes were, well corrupt - and used the church as a vehicle for wealth and domination, most of the native peoples of North America died of disease, the rest had thier land and posessions stolen - saving thier souls was only an excuse, just some examples. Look - NEVER in this thread have I even implied that the various religious texts weren't used as an excuse for abomination; I simply believe that people can twist ANYTHING in order to rationalize thier own behaviour. I amn not immune (or superior *grin*) to this, you are not, atheists are not, muslims are not, followers of the Tao are not. I believe that both the desire to avoid personal responsibility and rationalization are both at the root of human evil. Not religion - especially not a particular type of religion. Not even general ideology. The flaw is in all of us.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #175,259
9/20/04 4:34:41 PM
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Re: Is it?
Look - NEVER in this thread have I even implied that the various religious texts weren't used as an excuse for abomination; I simply believe that people can twist ANYTHING in order to rationalize thier own behaviour. I amn not immune (or superior *grin*) to this, you are not, atheists are not, muslims are not, followers of the Tao are not. I believe that both the desire to avoid personal responsibility and rationalization are both at the root of human evil. Not religion - especially not a particular type of religion. Not even general ideology. The flaw is in all of us. And I say loudly, AMEN! ;) (interpretation, I agree completely) Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,189
9/20/04 1:15:19 PM
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Ego is Id
I think the attitude that "I am superior" is an inherent human trait. After all, I can never know exactly what it means to be you, but I am quite familiar with what it means to be me (you'll have to take my word on that since you are not me).
Now extend the range out a bit more, my family is much more important to me than others. My neighborhood is the most important in the community. My city is the most important in the state. My state is the most important in the country. My country is the most important in the world. My planet is the most important in the universe. Adding another layer to this tribalism (religion) may add one more layer of us vs. them, but it is not an essential ingredient. You can add all sorts of other economic and political tribes to the mix.
As for your take on religion, I would think that a non-theist would assume that since there is no god, the beliefs of any group is not really as cohesive as some may pretend. In particular, the religions may have some beliefs in common, but what they mean for a particular individual is subject to time and experience.
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Post #175,199
9/20/04 2:49:04 PM
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I'm not sure about a non-theist, because I'm not one.
I think more than one person in this thread has confused the issue. I'm not talking about one's true religion (that which is entirely subjective and cannot be discussed in any meaningful way - see, for instance, Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, "The name that can be named is not the eternal Name." and Chapter 56 "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.").
This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism.
"Religious" Christians, Muslims and Jews do no accept such passages in their respective texts and instead "interpret" or "spin" what the words mean. In short, they do not practice their religion in the manner it is taught. I would have thought holding such would not be the source of any controversy.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,232
9/20/04 4:09:03 PM
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So which passage says that we should commit violence?
This is not what I'm speaking of. What I've been protesting is the content of the so-called sacred texts of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religions. All of them call for atrocities to be commited against the heathens explicitly - and this, I point out, distinguishes them from, say, Taoism and Buddhism. Can't speak much about Islam, not being aware of their texts or history. From the Jewish standpoint, I think you'll find the Talmud is pretty important in the interpretation of the Bible. From a Catholic standpoint, the interpretation falls in a combination of the Bible, tradition, and authority. I could dig up the Catholic position on humility, grace and violence if you'd like, but I rather doubt they would support your position. Which leaves us with the Evangelical Christians (or Protestants if you'd rather). Most of their interpretation falls under the domain of Sola Scriptura. Even that won't help your position because your position assumes that their interpretation matches what you take to be obvious. So are you saying that you know more about these various religious traditions than do the practitioners themselves? I generally hold the individual accountable for their actions and I find no evidence that being proud is considered a virtue (it's one of the 7 deadly sins). Most traditions, be it Eastern or Western, hold humility to be a virtue. In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state. From a Christian perspective, there's a large number of things which are ignored in the "Old Testament". Eating habits are the obvious example (not many Kosher Christians). Early Christianity even wrestled with whether to accept the early texts, preferring the new fangled testament. In the end, it was decided that they were a necessary ingredient to interpreting the New Testament, but neither were all of the pre & proscriptions regarded as relevant. Anyhow, is there anything in the New Testament that makes your point? From a Christian perspective, the Old Testament is only relevant from the standpoint of the interpretation of Jesus. Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs. But when it comes to the "sacred scriptures", what you are assuming is (a) there's only one interpretation (b) the various texts that make up the whole are consistent and uniform; and (c) individuals are not afforded the luxory of making their own choices about what things mean. I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end.
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Post #175,261
9/20/04 4:39:34 PM
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Wow, great response!
...In particular, many Christian groups believe that we are all sinners, saved and unsaved alike. It is only by grace that we come to that state. I wholly agree here. Now, all of this is, of course, theoretical. In practice, any individual or tribe can be downright cruel. And I would agree that religion tends to cause divisiveness and that people tend to be smug about their beliefs.... And you can substitute politics for the word religion in that sentence as well, and probably many others. I'll grant that religion has been fraught with violence. What I don't particularly accept though is that it was the necessary ingredient. For my money, economic and political motivation has a higher correlation to the events that have unfolded in human history. Religion is but a tool used to motivate others to that end. My thoughts exactly, great post! Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,202
9/20/04 2:55:05 PM
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I guess it all depends on what's
"plain text" to you. To me it's plain that "The Lord" in this means God. To you, it's some mysterious "owner". Ok, taking your interpretation for a second, are _you_, personally, an "owner" of anybody? If not, then it's not yours to punish. If yes, I'd like to hear an explanation.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,205
9/20/04 3:06:59 PM
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I could be wrong about this, but I think "case"
is significant here. Here's the whole thing (AFAIK):
41. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portions of meat in due season?
43. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45. But if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and be drunken;
46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
47. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
[link|http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/prbl04.htm|http://members.cox.n...claude/prbl04.htm]
See, they switched case. So, maybe the "owner" thing is appropriate after all and here the Bible okays slave owners beating their upity slaves as hard as "unbelievers".
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,206
9/20/04 3:12:54 PM
9/20/04 3:13:18 PM
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It's a parable
"lord" certainly means "Lord" here (edit: but not literally). The "master" "will appoint his portion with the unbelievers"? Unbelievers in what - his masterly persona? Nope, it's obviously a parable: if human master punsishes his slave (servant?) who "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and be drunken", the Lord above will do same with His servants who He left in authority. If anything, this is a piece of subversive anti-establishment propaganda.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
Edited by Arkadiy
Sept. 20, 2004, 03:13:18 PM EDT
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Post #175,220
9/20/04 3:43:11 PM
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Re: It's a parable
Very well defended, Arkadiy!
I couldn't have said it better.
And to add one other things, most of the described "atrocities" Mmoffitt refers to happened in the Old Testament and or New Testament before Christ came with the New Covenant. When the New Covenant replaced the old one, most of the things those "believers" were required to do, (such as blood sacrifices for example), were no longer required or expected.
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,372
9/21/04 9:27:32 AM
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"New Covenant" hmmmmmmm.....
That's where Christians co-opted "The Chosen People" for themselves and took the moniker away from the Jews, right? And this isn't about "supremacy" - Feh!
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,396
9/21/04 11:38:40 AM
9/21/04 11:40:13 AM
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Ooops -- ignore.. moving to religion as requested
Nothing to see here
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 21, 2004, 11:40:13 AM EDT
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Post #175,399
9/21/04 11:41:00 AM
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I have no idea what you're talking about (new thread)
Created as new thread #175398 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175398|I have no idea what you're talking about]
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,221
9/20/04 3:46:09 PM
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The "unbelievers" are a class.
...will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
I'm not clear on what "appoint his portion" means, but it is clear that within this text the "unbelievers" are of lower class. Which is precisely and example of what imric has been beating me up for.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,225
9/20/04 3:50:28 PM
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How is that clear?
I'm not clear on what "appoint his portion" means, but it is clear that within this text the "unbelievers" are of lower class. Which is precisely and example of what imric has been beating me up for. Huh? Not so. It doesn't make it clear that unbelievers are of lower class, only that he chose the unbelievers over the believers. That's just a conscious choice, just like choosing one team over another, or one political party over another ... it doesn't always mean one is lower class than another, just the choice the chooser made. So in this case, he chooses to appoint his portion with the team or party of believers, rather than the team or party of unbelievers. Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,282
9/20/04 5:56:31 PM
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Oh my. A class.
Can't you take the word for what it means? Unbeliever, AKA kiafir - one who does not believe in God. Nothing to do with class.
"Appoint his portion" means "assign his fate" or some such AFAIK.
The text is saying that abusive boss is no better than unbeliever, and shall be punished by God. Do you disagree with my interpretation?
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,290
9/20/04 6:21:25 PM
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Psssst! Don't tell Bryce.....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #175,291
9/20/04 6:24:15 PM
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Remember, the meek shall inherit the earth...
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #175,295
9/20/04 6:43:10 PM
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And what did poor bastards do to deserver such fate?
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,311
9/20/04 9:17:15 PM
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6' deep 6' long and 4' wide
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #175,315
9/20/04 9:37:45 PM
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4' wide??????
I don't know of any single grave that is 4 feet wide. Family plots maybe, but not single graves. And most are longer than 6 feet, also. ;)
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,378
9/21/04 9:37:24 AM
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take a measuring tape to your next funeral 4' wide
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #175,401
9/21/04 11:42:40 AM
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Was just at a wake (new thread)
Created as new thread #175400 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=175400|Was just at a wake]
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,317
9/20/04 9:48:53 PM
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And it's Christian thing to share...
graves, especially if it's for the Kosovars. Ask the Serbs.
Alex
"If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -- Philip K. Dick, US science fiction writer
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Post #175,332
9/20/04 11:18:01 PM
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Okay, that's it
Can you guys move this to religion/metaphysics, please?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #175,334
9/20/04 11:24:44 PM
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Well, we tried earlier
And got some of it there, but the rest seems to be hanging on here.
But if I respond to it anymore, I'll move it again, ok?
Brenda
Nightowl >8#
"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
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Post #175,357
9/21/04 3:13:26 AM
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YOU ALL SUCK
Blimey. If you can't get a bad OO pun, then y'all need to go back to humour school.
Bryce? Inheritance? Geddit?
Sigh.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #176,048
9/23/04 10:56:58 PM
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Oddly enough, I got it (new thread)
Created as new thread #176047 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=176047|Oddly enough, I got it]
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #175,428
9/21/04 1:07:16 PM
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Since when was Bryce meek?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #175,370
9/21/04 9:24:21 AM
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Almost, but not quite.
The text is saying that abusive boss is no better than unbeliever, and shall be punished by God. Do you disagree with my interpretation?
Not the boss, the slave. The slave is the one to be punished as much as the "unbeliever". This isn't about punishing the boss, it is about punishing the slave for goofing off while the boss was away. 46. The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut in sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. The slave is to be punished as though he were a non-believer. So, non-obedient slaves and unbelievers are in the same class. Chris, you listening? Others may argue but imo subjecting people to slavery - and then punishing them for being disobedient to their masters IS advocating violence. bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,376
9/21/04 9:34:10 AM
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Read it carefully
The slave was left in charge in boss' absence. He imagined that the boss is not coming back, and started to abuse his position. The boss shall come back and punish the bad slave.
OK, now bring it one level higher. The boss becomes God, the slave left in authority is a ruler, and the other slaves he abused are poor people, widows and orphans. The ruler thinks that God, after giving him authority, is not coming back to demand an account. The ruler is mistaken.
Now, even the "lower" interpretation is not too bad. The bad slave had it coming. The higher is quite good. Do you have any objections?
(This will be my last attempt to explain my interpretation. If this does not get through, nothing will.)
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,538
9/21/04 8:55:56 PM
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You made my point.
You have interpretted the text to mean something it does not explicitly state. And in so doing, added some humanity/compassion/reason that was not there in plain text.
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,610
9/22/04 8:59:18 AM
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Ashton mode on
literally
cha-cha-cha
Ashton Mode off.
--
... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]
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Post #175,826
9/22/04 7:11:50 PM
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I like [referent] mode better.
(Corporate Christianity + Bizness) ethics
A match made in heaven
Practicing Hellatio on each other and anyone else trying not to listen to the erotic sounds of pleasuring - amidst the awaiting boiling oil.
er,
cha cha glorp
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Post #174,878
9/17/04 7:36:20 PM
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Re: Counter-example to your last.
Allow me to repeat myself: The implied assumption is that it's the religious belief at the heart of the matter that is the problem (possible, but unlikely). Most cases do allow allow for a shared base from which to negogiate if you look at the religion closely. I said that it was possible. There are exteme cases where that is a true statement, including, at times, Christianity. (And it's far more wide reaching than simply the Mesopotamian belief systems.) Shared base: "All should be allowed to live." Disagreement again. It's not that we all should be allowed to live. It's that I should be allowed to live. To allow me to live, we pass laws that say people can't kill me and in exchange I won't go around killing them. Religious credo: "I have faith (in Allah, Christ, whomever) and you do not. Hence, your life is worth less in the eyes of God than mine." Counter-example: Regardless of faith, individual argues that your life is worth less than his. How can you 'reason' with him? (Think Sawney Beans, Jeffery Dalmer, Ted Bundy here.) Religion isn't the issue - it's a scapegoat.
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Post #174,905
9/18/04 3:44:00 AM
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No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise...
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency...
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons...
Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #174,919
9/18/04 7:17:17 AM
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Thanks! I was waiting for that ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
"The struggle for the emancipation of the working class is not between races or religions. It is one of class against class. Every trace of anti-Semitism, or any form of race hatred cannot assist the oppressed, it can on the contrary only aid the exploiters. Workers of all nationality, religion or creed must stand together against the common enemy: capitalism."
-Ted Grant
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Post #175,436
9/21/04 1:43:24 PM
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And who commissioned that Inquisition? Church or state?
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Post #174,920
9/18/04 7:17:29 AM
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Been there. Done that.
zIWE to a lesser extent, Sleazy-board to a greater, DimfoWorld to the max. Apoplexy with Nick P. VS Brandioch/Khasim et alia. Sufi stories, Boolean diversions, what is Is and Isn't... and when you start in on The Bible, Revelations, and that deliciously sadistic stuff in Leviticus - from whence deriveth the homo-bashing as perpetuateth unto '04: it's a jillion-word trip into Looney Tunes. Noooooo. Not. Again.
I submit that a culture, society, 'group' possessed of an only miniscule acquaintance with metaphysical ideas, their 'referents' and a few rules that have worked for a couple millennia, to facilitate comprehension: cannot ever get beyond circular arguments for the most obv of reasons; ordinary language has no fucking [referent] from whence to begin.
I've maintainded this POV in each of these arenas (and many others), and the circularity has most often proved epidemic. (I've also seen it possible to evade circularity. Elsewhere.) But, just as we "learn nothing from history.." so also will not any participants in one circle jerk ever bother to discover that there Are means for communicating 'meta-views'.
So screw the pointless employment of Boolean IF/THEN digital logic in search of the Ontological Proof of God cha cha cha. This thread isn't about that; it was about - the pernicious 'thread' of fanatical associations with that idea inculcated into helpless kiddies - Belief as in,
I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe \ufffd I believe what I believe is right.
-\ufffd George W. Bush, in Rome, July 22, 2001 Sola Fides? via Giovanni
..because That is the axis upon which the circularity spins.
You teach a kid that THIS is "thinking".. (or, Gawd-forbid: reasoning) and it may take decades or a whole life, never learning to think beyond that unHoly box from childhood. This passed-on affliction has led to virtually uninterrupted warfare amidst the dueling I-Believes since (the surviving) reporters began to list the I-Believes in those war histories our minds are now too numb to remember; too [whatever] to reread. There Have Been SO Many.
What could be more obvious than that, Corporate Religion Kills humans?
If that is not obvious by inspection, would you like to buy a copy of the new Guaranteed-Secure Windows: The Final Edition?
(Let's not even get started Again on, "What is 'truth' or Truth"; the species, for the most part aren't ready even for the "What is" part.)
{sheesh}
Humankind cannot bear very much reality
TS Eliot
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