Yeah, that's true but...

Post #169,124 by Nightowl 8/12/04 11:59:48 PM 8/13/04 12:40:38 AM Reply	Yeah, that's true but... I get more nervous because he's a lot closer in proximity to me than any of you guys. ;) Edit: Sorry Norman, but you start to scare me when you, well, when you start acting like this... i.e. not like yourself. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer Edited by Nightowl Aug. 13, 2004, 12:40:38 AM EDT Yeah, that's true but... I get more nervous because he's a lot closer in proximity to me than any of you guys. ;) Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer Collapse All History
Post #169,141 by broomberg 8/13/04 6:37:50 AM Reply	Seems like an upswing of Manic Depression. About a month ago he seemed a lot better than he had for quite a while. But then he got wierder and wierder in the direction of being all-knowing. Since he can spout very well when he is in this mode, he can probably bullshit his way through less informed groups of people. But here people call him on it. A while back I stoppped posting to him, thinking I would be pushing him over the edge. But since this is the flame forum, I'm expected to say something nasty. So: JUMP!
Post #169,277 by n3jja 8/13/04 11:29:47 PM Reply	I could care less, actually. I stopped bothering to pay him any attention a long time ago. My advice to Norm is to stop nibbling on the barrel. Put it in your mouth and pull the trigger. If you think I'm being unreasonable cruel, then Fuck You, too. I've had enough.
Post #169,283 by pwhysall 8/14/04 1:00:37 AM Reply	You mean you couldn't care less? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #169,292 by deSitter 8/14/04 3:51:22 AM Reply	No, that's an American idiom ..and everyone knows exactly what it means. -drl
Post #169,296 by pwhysall 8/14/04 4:50:28 AM Reply	No they fucking don't, you philistinic colonial baboon. :-P A chap has to maintain the standards expected of this forum. It's "I could care less", when what you really mean is "I couldn't care less"? And I thought British English was a weird language. (It is.) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #169,306 by bepatient 8/14/04 9:02:06 AM Reply	It doesn't read correctly... ...because when spoken it is done extremely sarcastically. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #169,308 by admin 8/14/04 9:18:29 AM Reply	Nopers. As Bill pointed out, when you say it sarcastically, it takes on a different meaning. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #169,309 by Another Scott 8/14/04 9:35:38 AM Reply	"Avoid it as Nonstandard" His Tory lordship is correct. [link\|http://www.bartleby.com/68/29/1529.html\|Bartleby]: Kenneth G. Wilson (1923\ufffd). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993. could care less, couldn\ufffdt care less Although many have tried, no one has yet satisfactorily explained how the negative fell out of the older and accepted couldn\ufffdt care less, although logic of course says that could care less makes no sense. Both forms are clich\ufffds, and both are certainly best restricted to the lower Conversational levels and the most Informal of writing. But could care less could also earn you the scorn of logic lovers and clich\ufffd haters alike. Avoid it as Nonstandard. I agree. It's one of those idioms that people say without thinking about. Rather like "The point is is that ..." It reminds me of that famous song, sung by Billie Holiday, The Platters, Fred Sanford, and others: "If I couldn't care less" - [link\|http://lyrics.rare-lyrics.com/B/Billie-Holiday/If-I-Didn't-Care.html\|Jack Lawrence / Milton Ager]. ;-p Cheers, Scott.
Post #169,312 by admin 8/14/04 10:19:11 AM Reply	Missing the point. Yes, it's not logical. When spoken straightforwardly. But as has been pointed out twice, saying it sarcastically gives it a new meaning. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #169,316 by pwhysall 8/14/04 10:40:41 AM Reply	saying it sarcastically ...in the USA gives it a different meaning. Saying it sarcastically over here simply marks you out as a loony, which is why I was confused. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #169,318 by boxley 8/14/04 10:47:08 AM Reply	dont come here and ask someone to bum a fag then "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #169,319 by bepatient 8/14/04 11:06:03 AM Reply	or knock up your girlfriend, for that matter. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #169,327 by Another Scott 8/14/04 12:26:04 PM Reply	Trouble is, too many don't say it sarcastically. ;-)
Post #169,328 by ben_tilly 8/14/04 12:31:19 PM Reply	And we've discussed this before Bzzt. Wrong. The saying means exactly what it says. Would it be clearer to you if the saying was, "I suppose* that I could care less."? The claim is that it is possible* to care less. The fact that you need to think about and say it indicates that that possibility is remote and unlikely. Of course I pointed this out to you before, but you didn't seem to get it then either. I guess that someone out there could be stupid enough to find this kind of roundabout insult even more opaque than you do. Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #169,331 by folkert 8/14/04 2:49:23 PM Reply	And I could not have cared less, then! But, I supposed I found out I could care less. I guess I was careless. /me is not an asshole... all of the time. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #169,417 by Ashton 8/15/04 9:43:11 PM Reply	Sorry, but.. I believe this has become an authentic Idiomatic Expression which, despite the possibility of 'interpreting it' as you suggest: always and everywhere meant and means: [About the topic raised] I don't give a shit\ufffd!! (And a soup\ufffdon of.. See how non-PC I Am !?! cha cha cha -- in recent years) That's my brilliant analysis and.. I'm Sticking To It (see how incisive, perspicuous and Resolute I Am ??) moi
Post #169,497 by jb4 8/16/04 12:18:45 PM Reply	Peter, try reading it like this: (the elipsis is in square brackets) "I could care less about Norm [but I don't]." or perhaps... "I could care less about Norm [if I wanted to, but since that would take additional effort, and I have already expended too much effort already on this, I don't]. See? Americlish! It's a wonderful language... ;-\ufffd jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #169,499 by drewk 8/16/04 12:24:47 PM Reply	No, I think it really is an implied 'not' Same way, "The server needs upgraded," means, "The server needs to be upgraded." Or, "The trash needs emptied," for, "The trash needs to be emptied." Dropping the "to be" has become very common the last couple of years. It bugs the shit out of me. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #169,504 by ben_tilly 8/16/04 1:15:44 PM Reply	Isn't it annoying though... When Shakespeare's question is shortened down to, "or not". Delivered sarcastically, of course. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #169,508 by FuManChu 8/16/04 1:31:12 PM Reply	As was the original ...delivered sarcastically, that is. Hamlet knows Polonius is eavesdropping.
Post #170,139 by orion 8/19/04 1:11:58 PM Reply	I got your message it is not something to joke about, or be sarcastic about. Truth is, you all want me to end my life, but use the sarcasim to avoid your true feelings. IwT without me, you reason, would be a lot better. BTW it is Schitzoaffective disorder, not bipolar disorder, I've posted my illnesses before and it is not my mistake if you are too stupid to remember or are such a poor armchar psychologists that you misdiagnose me. I must ask for your qualifications. Are you following Jung or Freud, or perhaps I think you are following Fraud more likely. As for as kiling myself, I won't do your dirty work, you will have to do it yourself. Come on over and kill me, you know you want to, make it look like a suicide and everyone will believe it. Face facts, you all care about me about as much as you care about a germ. *"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].
Post #170,219 by ChrisR 8/19/04 2:49:53 PM Reply	Overgeneralizing you all In proper Texas speech, that should be y'all. But as long as we're on the topic, the question is why you think this is the opinion of the collective "you all". The current poster doesn't rate you in the genus of germ, but neither does he think that discussing personal problems is a particularly rational course of action (especially in proximity of Flame Quarantine). The behavior of said participants did not cause the schism, nor is it likely to result in resolution. Most of the banter along these lines rates as pure noise. You will not necessarily receive affirmation, comfort or solace in the digital world. For that, you must seek the more intimate confines of those around you in the real world. Trying to defend one's trustworthiness is a futile effort, either by clamoring for excellence or feigning inferiority. Nothing gained in valiantly trying to defend one's honor against real or perceived slight. My problem with you as a forum participant has no bearing on what I think you should do with your life (for good or ill). Instead, this community is about exchanging ideas on a vast array of subjects. The problem I have is that the subject constantly revolves around the question of "Orion". Orion as a subject has been beat to death over time. There's not much on the issue that hasn't been bandied about. I know it's a very important subject from your frame of reference, but the question is why that subject is more important than say the War in Iraq. Thousands have died in that conflict, and you don't hear all the people in the region discussing Orion. Orion doesn't rate as a germ, but neither does Orion weigh in as the most important topic worthy of spilling untold amounts of ink. It's definitely not boolean logic of (a) I love you man; or (b) fuck off and die. There are many subtle grades of caring and hatred. Indeed, hatred is not the opposite of love - they both are emotive sense - the opposite would be apathy. Oh well, enuf of thise shit. Get out with your family and stop with the nonsense of worrying about your online avatar in the metaverse.
Post #170,478 by n3jja 8/20/04 5:15:14 PM Reply	Once more, with clarity.... I don't give a fuck about him in the slightest. He's not worth the time it would take to scrape him off my shoe. If he wants to be left alone, then I'd suggest he do us the same favor for a change. There are times that I don't consider my life a bed of roses either, but you won't see me taking it out on the rest of the world. I'm certainly not going to advertise my "dirty laundry" here or anywhere else. Quite frankly, I don't think it's any of your (collective "your") concern about what goes on in my private life. My public life and my private life are seperate and have always been that way. That's the way I intend on keeping them. There's only one or two people here who have EVER heard me voice anything about how my life is doing and they have been private face-to-face conversations. If I wanted everyone to know, I'd have opened my mouth and sprayed the forums with useless shite like Norm has done. I've given up caring why Norm does what he does. I've heard the excuses time and time again. I'm not accepting them anymore. I have the same attitude towards people who "attempt" suicide over and over and over again. If you're serious, you'll do it the first time and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, I view the multiple attempts as calls for attention, not help. The first attempt might be a cry for help, maybe even the second attempt, but after 2 I really have to wonder. As painful as it is to bring this up, Ben Kosse (may he rest in peace, finally) is the perfect example (to me, anyway) of someone who was serious. He was here one day, gone the next. To the best of my knowledge, noone here had a clue what was going on with him at the time. In the past, when things weren't going well for Norm, he'd talk about killing himself. Everyone here got in a real panic because of what had happened to Ben and they didn't want a repeat. Fair enough.... the first couple of times Norm did this. After that, it became obvious to me that all Norm wanted was to feel important; to be the center of attention. I refuse to do that anymore, beyond writing this post. So, when I say, "Stop nibbling on the barrel, pull the trigger.", I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious.
Post #170,504 by ChrisR 8/20/04 9:21:54 PM Reply	Those who call attention to themselves... ...many times don't care whether the attention is positive or negative reinforcement. Feelings of persecution serve the same purpose of elevating one's level of self-importance. I don't give a fuck about him in the slightest. He's not worth the time it would take to scrape him off my shoe. If you truly didn't give a fuck, apathy would be the proper response, not animosity. Instead, your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. There's only one or two people here who have EVER heard me voice anything about how my life is doing and they have been private face-to-face conversations. zIWTHEY is not completely void of discussion of personal issues, and I'd like to think that such lines of discussion are not taboo. The issue is more one of moderation and according such topics the weight they deserve given the array of topics being discussed. Discussing Orion as a subject, for good or ill, is not a productive endeaver. Nothing further can be said that hasn't been said - at least those that have any merit. I wish him well in his personal journey, but don't particularly look forward to any further histrionics or backwash from those who carry on vendetta. As painful as it is to bring this up, Ben Kosse (may he rest in peace, finally) is the perfect example (to me, anyway) of someone who was serious. He was here one day, gone the next. To the best of my knowledge, noone here had a clue what was going on with him at the time. Not to denigrate memories of him but, Ben Kosse could come across as a right asshole. This is not to say I didn't like the kid - a real talent that is sorely missed - just that he had the same failings that many on IWETHEY suffer. IWETHEY is chalk full of people that don't seem to have a clue when it comes to moderating their style for the subtleties of social communication - bluntness being preferred as the medium for the message. Which is an issue that crops up in these parts every so often. We have lost some valued members because they felt that the heavy handedness of a large part of the hordes is too overbearing. The obvious question back is why the rest of us stick around, given that compassion can be rather scarce in these parts. Well, one might fit right in, being a coarse asshole and fit right in with the crowd. Or one might be a mashochist, happily enjoying the constant ripping. Or, as the case may be with myself, I neither enjoy being the subject of derision, nor do I feel that my communication fits in with the crowd. Rather I see an interesting cross-section of individuals that really are as different as they are the same. But most importantly, I see the virtue of the various opinions being expressed in a sometimes brutal, but almost always honest manner. But then that just may mean that I'm masochistic after all. As for Orion, perhaps you are on the side of the majority about being miffed with him. I simply responded that I am not of that mindset, preferring to spend time discussing and reading other things that might actually make a difference, as opposed to be a repeat of past circumstances. I do consider it to be irresponsible to taunt for suicide, and consider you an asshole for suggesting such. But in the end, it's a meaningless expression of a sentiment in a semi-hostile environment. It's also playing into the hands of that which seeks attention.
Post #170,506 by pwhysall 8/20/04 9:46:19 PM Reply	Re: Those who call attention to themselves... I can vouch for the fact that despite the asshattery, many of the people here are thoughtful and considerate. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #170,508 by ChrisR 8/20/04 10:22:59 PM Reply	Tis true. But then this is the flame forum, so I thought I'd backhand flame the entire crowd. :-) Sometimes I'm amazed that this community even exists. It's not really a general forum, but then it's not really a special interest forum either. By all accounts, we should all be complete strangers. And given the amount of time that's elapsed, I've probably been miffed with each and every one of you at one time or another. But yeah, there is a community here, however improbable it's existance. And for the most part I enjoy the intruiging cast of characters. And there's also a playful and silly strain - perhaps guided by our little LRPD friend. :-) But to stay on topic for the forum - fuck all of you, very much. (Though I sure wish I had the CRC gift to give proper flamage).
Post #170,507 by Another Scott 8/20/04 9:47:27 PM Reply	Post of the Year, so far. IMHO. :-) Thanks Chris.
Post #170,509 by ChrisR 8/20/04 10:26:27 PM Reply	Wasted in the flame forums. Judging errors skew my chances of such awards - though must admit that this is the first I've heard of the possibility of receiving bestowed honors. :-)
Post #170,511 by Nightowl 8/20/04 10:38:19 PM Reply	Great post, Chris... a few questions? ...your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? I would really appreciate your insight on these, as you seem to have a really good view of things. Thanks Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,515 by ChrisR 8/20/04 11:30:21 PM Reply	Wish I knew the answers Living in quarters with a couple of manic-depressives, it would come in quite handy. :-) First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Well, if we're gonna discuss personal things, I might as well discuss my own situation, with which I'm a tad more familiar. The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. Either way, it has to do with the expectations of the person feeling betrayed, rather than the person of derision. Manic-Depressives, at least the one's I'm intimate with, have their good episodes and their bad episodes. From a family perspective, you have no choice but to put up with bad, hoping for better days. I judge them not on their current attitude or behavior, but rather weigh it over the long term. There's not a magic bullet that says they are gonna be cured and it will all be smooth sailing from here on out. Anyhow, if you have to deal with the problem in an immediate sense, you have to try to get perspective. Otherwise, you end up being infected as well. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. * Not that any of what I'm saying is particularly prophetic. Sometimes you just have to step back from the situation and recharge your batteries and set your expectations accordingly. Unfortunately, there ain't a damn formula for working with dysfunctional behavior. What works on one person, just makes matters worse on others. Trial and error is about the only method of debugging the program, and oddly what errors in one bout will succeed in another (and vice versa). ** And for the real answers to these questions, I'd have to be somewhere between my second and third beer - the professorial stage. Mind you, that stretch of time is sometimes but a blink of an eye, and it also happens to be when I could be a PGA Golfer. :-)
Post #170,517 by Nightowl 8/20/04 11:47:42 PM Reply	That makes two of us :) The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. I'm a little confused on the above sentence, can you help me clarify it? I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Please clarify that one sentence? I really want to understand what you said here. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life. I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. And I also do not believe I have any answers to their problems, I just try to be by their side, or behind them, (in many cases, not just the current one), and help as much as I can if it's feasible to continue to do. I just don't know when you decide it is no longer feasible. I guess that's just a gut feeling. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. That's the other problem. If I do what I feel I might need to do to take care of me, then sometimes it winds up "persecuting" the person in question. That only serves to enforce their persecuted complex or what have you.... so it's a hard call, take care of you, or worry about how it will affect the other person. (sigh) Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. That's the other problem. I don't always KNOW if I'm part of the problem, which is sometimes why I decide maybe I should step back from it. And I have to be honest, I'm almost out of patience. (sigh) At any rate, you've given me a lot to think about, and I really do appreciate your response to my questions. I think I just have to decide for myself which course to take... just wish it wasn't such a hard decision. Thanks Chris, you helped more than you know. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,527 by ChrisR 8/21/04 12:50:19 AM Reply	Conscience is a tricky bugger I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? In more scientific terms: You're damned if do, and damned if you don't. But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Betrayal implies a sort of malice. In the current context, I'd consider the person betrayed cared at some point (Love is too loaded a word) and that a gift of dedication, time or resources was provided. The feeling of betrayal comes into play when one thinks that the gift is intentionally squandered (i.e. malice is involved). Manipulation can be a common facet of how that scenario plays out (but is only one of many possibilities). In order to feel betrayed, there must have been an investment (real or imagined) made at one time or another. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Well then, the immediate problem is not the dysfunctional behavior, but rather it dwells within your conscience. Dealing with the problem from that perspective is a bit more rational, as your course of action is perhaps the one thing you have control over. I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. If you love it, set it free. If it comes back, then it's open hunting season. :-) Just to play out another scenario, I'd also like to remind that depending on the person making the decision, it can play out differently on a temporal basis. Let's say one had a sister-in-law that was married to a worthless piece of shit, that hadn't held a job for more than a couple of months time over a 20 year period of time. Worthless individual has no inkling of ambition or responsibility, not even being able to act as a child care provider, wasting away drinking beer, doing drugs, and watching the zombie tube. Let's say said person takes a bat and beats the spouse black and blue on the face. Well, most rational people would permanently remove themself from said abuse, and sister-in-law moved five states away and vowed to never have anything to do with said individual again. Well, it was easy to guess what happened within 6 months time - they were back together. Move forward in time. Said individual leaves crystal meth and needles lying on the dinning room table, with toddlers of 2 and 3 running around the house. Again, he gets the final boot. Within a week, he shows up with a broken jaw, as some drug deal had gone bad, and he had the ever living shit beat out of him. She takes him back and nurtures him to health. Wind forward to more recent. Said individual is high as a kite on the 3 year olds birthday, and threatens mother and family with a knife. Kids go nuts and hide in the closet while mom calls the police to escort worthless dad away for 3 months at county. Mother vows to never, ever, ever allow him anywhere near the vicinity. We recommend a restraining order - siggestion goes unheeded. Roll forward to today. He's back. I fucking can't believe such stupidity. What's the moral of this story. I don't know other than final ultimatims are only as final as the person giving the ultimatum. And given where we're at, at the current time, they were worthless and probably contributed in a cause-effect way over the long term. Anyhow, just as you have to view help from a long-term perspective, the decision to not help should also be made over a long haul, not waffling back and forth. * Ok, enuf of this personal advice. Anyone that takes my advice should probably have their fucking head examined (well, we do have to try to feign staying on topic in this quarantine). And anyone that's just rolling their eyes, hoping to be spared this thread - well - I love you too. :-)
Post #170,529 by Nightowl 8/21/04 1:31:24 AM Reply	Thanks That clarifies it really well. I would have moved this out of the Flame Forum, hehe, but I had no idea where it would go if I had.... Hmmmm obligatory flame..... I'm not really good at those.... Besides, isn't being kind to your enemy the equivalent of heaping burning coals on their heads? Hehee! There's my flame, burning coals! Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,534 by boxley 8/21/04 9:17:02 AM Reply	you can be a good fucking flamer after all yer a woman, just bring up the obligatory LOSER, GET A FUCKING REAL JOB SO I CAN BUY SOME DECENT (insert object of desire here) YOUR FUCKING FAMILY, YOUR BROTHER GIVES BETTER HEAD. see its easy. :-) thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,544 by Nightowl 8/21/04 11:02:35 AM Reply	Oh sure, I can say the words Problem is, I can't put the heart into it and the meaning behind it, because I'm just too damn nice and considerate. ;) It just ain't me. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,536 by Another Scott 8/21/04 9:55:22 AM Reply	Some people always find a way to make the wrong choice. It's oh so very painful to watch. Been there. :-( I feel for you, Chris. In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control. It's my experience that adults rarely change personality traits or pathologies. It takes some sort of major event to get people to change (myself included), and even then it's easy to revert back to the previous trait or behavior. We're all creatures of habit. It's easy to see a solution from a distance, but unfortunately, it's often impractical to implement it. In the abstract, someone needs to babysit said SIL and make sure she doesn't make the wrong decisions wrt said WPoS. That, in the abstract, means someone needs to take her and her children in. But I'm sure that's impossible and I'm sure that she wouldn't accept that anyway. That's the solution I tried with my mother. It lasted less than 2 years and the stress damaged my relationship with her (even more). And in the end, it only delayed her spiral down for a while. So even if one sees the solution, and tries ones best to implement it, there's only so much a person can do to help someone else. Ultimately, personal responsibility is the most important thing. If it's not there, moving Heaven and Earth won't help. Sometimes support group discussions can help the person, but too often they're impractical to attend. :-( Hang in there. And best of luck to said SIL and her little ones. Remember, we don't get to pick our relatives. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #170,545 by Nightowl 8/21/04 11:06:22 AM Reply	No Kidding, Scott... I'm sorry about your SIL too, Chris. It's so hard to watch people continue to put themselves in the same situations over and over. In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control. Reminds me of when a friend and I took another friend under our "management" and tried to help him manage his money... it failed completely, and ended with the IRS and the Police both coming to our doors. Fortunately we got out of the liability of it, but I had to ultimately abandon said friend who was causing all the problems.... even though I promise his mother on her death-bed I would look after her son.. Yeah right... some people just can't and won't help themselves, and trying to help them just gets you ensnared in their messes. Stupid SOB finally left town with police warrants out everywhere... hope he never comes back. Nightowl >8# "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Post #170,520 by n3jja 8/21/04 12:10:07 AM Reply	2 things If you truly didn't give a fuck, apathy would be the proper response, not animosity. Instead, your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. Not betrayed, just totally fucking pissed off and gettig tired of the whole fucking thing. AFAIAC, Norm's been a whiner from day one and I'm tired of it. Don't like the way I blow my top? Too bad. It's been a long time coming. I'm surprised I contained it this long. I do consider it to be irresponsible to taunt for suicide, and consider you an asshole for suggesting such. Hey, then I'm an asshole. BFD. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Neither will you, I suppose. We agree to disagree. I really don't give a shit what you, or anyone else, thinks of me. Never have; never will. I don't care to discuss Norm. I don't care to see others wasting their time on him, although there's not much I can do about it. It's their time to waste. I just wonder how many times you can smack your head into a brick wall before you figure out that it hurts. It usually takes only once for me. YMSTV, mine doesn't.
Post #170,564 by bepatient 8/21/04 2:15:39 PM Reply	sniff I really don't give a shit what you, or anyone else, thinks of me. Never have; never will. I don't doubt it you snivelling little butterscotch schnappes drinkin toad-headed BASTARD! stylewhack2 n3jja If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,592 by n3jja 8/21/04 7:25:58 PM Reply	snicker
Post #170,600 by bepatient 8/21/04 10:05:16 PM Reply	shrug couldn't help myself ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,521 by boxley 8/21/04 12:12:11 AM Reply	sorry you had to have been there saw the expression and the delivery of this verbalization of the contents of this particularization. done over with posted either get on with ir or shut the fuck up jimbo, correct me if ZI am wrong, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,563 by bepatient 8/21/04 2:12:14 PM Reply	We're not worthy...we're not worthy ;-) Nice post. Fuck you for making it! (it is flame forum, yes??) So piss off! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #170,958 by orion 8/25/04 4:10:34 PM Reply	Spitting on a grave I mentioned Ben in my Yahoo Group, and Beep accused me of "Spitting on a grave". I guess what I was trying to get at, is that Ben and I are alike in some ways and different in other ways. Unlike Ben, I don't hide my illness and when I get suicidal, I announce it and I get help before I actually do kill myself. This is one of the few things that has kept me alive. I've had friends who kept their problems to themselves, and pretty much put a gun in their mouths and pulled the trigger. I also have friends who didn't keep it to themselves but were able to tell someone before they did try to kill themselves, and are thus alive today. In case you haven't noticed it, I do not want attention. That is all my "I want to be left alone" posts are about. If it really bothers you that much, CSS filter me, if you are smart enough to figure out how to do that. *"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].
Post #170,477 by n3jja 8/20/04 4:43:08 PM Reply	No you didn't. You're still here. And who the fuck said I was joking or being sarcastic? Stop whining and pull the trigger.
Post #170,482 by Arkadiy 8/20/04 5:25:08 PM Reply	Playing Russian Rulette with Norm? Yes, most of the holes are empty. Are you sure that all are? If not, given enough time and encouragement, it may just work, you know? So please keep your "pull the trigger" where Norm can't see it. -- "...was poorly, lugubrious and intoxicated." -- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
Post #170,483 by n3jja 8/20/04 5:41:26 PM Reply	I believe that, "Blow Me", is the proper response.
Post #170,960 by orion 8/25/04 4:17:15 PM Reply	Trust me, you aren't even worth it remove one of your ribs and then you can go blow yourself! With your attitude, you'll must likely end up alone in life anyway. *"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].

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