Post #168,472
8/10/04 1:37:26 PM
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Are you THAT fucking stoopud, Norm!
Using that same logic, Saddam and Bin Laden both supported terrorism and attacks on the USA, in that thought they are allies. Pull your fucking head out, Norm! Are you that fucking dense to try that line of complete fucking bullshit on this group?!? The only other fuckwad whou would have us believe that is Marlowe, and he's/it's the only other contributer whose credibility is less than yours. Buy a vowel! So you think that removing a tinhorn dictator who happens to sit on the worlds most accessible patch of [oil] is an acceptable use of 'Murican forces, Fine! Have the balls to stand up and say that, and earn equal helpings of respect and scorn. But don't bring that fetid pile of bullshit masquerading as rationale 'round here again! jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,480
8/10/04 2:15:48 PM
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Yes, he is.
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Post #168,494
8/10/04 5:01:19 PM
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le mot juste in this connection
is "shit-for-brains."
It becomes dispiriting on so many counts to read Norm's posts over time. He further abrades my already tattered faith in the prospect of human perfectibility. Were he unique, or even unusual, an annex could be built onto the primate section at the St. Louis Zoo, and Homo Fatuous could be put on display for the edification of the Sunday crowds. Alas, Norm is just that: a gawdawful representative specimen of what passes for the thought processes of our polyester proletariat.
Loathing, detestation, scorn, dismay.
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Post #168,496
8/10/04 5:04:59 PM
8/11/04 4:49:30 PM
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Much better than
being a low-life scum sucking dickless amoeba like yourself who still cannot think of anything original to say.
You = Antonio Salieri
Me = Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Only this time your tactics are not going to kill me. You've resorted to saying the same thing over and over again, yet again. Each attack on me and my position proves how right I am. The more you and others attack me, the more justified and correct I am. The more you all encourage me to continue, and I will continue.
You understand that I have a gift, and a great potential. Yet you cannot understand why a buffon like me has the gift and potential. It is beyond your comprehension because you've reached your limits. You've met your potential, and found that it was less than mine is. While I am imperfect and have limits, sometimes I can get around those limits. LIke John Nash, I learned how to use my mental illness to an advantage. There are others like me out there, and this fact scares you. You can never fully comprehend why someone like me exists, because it is beyond your comprehension. Each year, you get senile, and worse. Your significant other has done a Lorna Bobbit on you, and you are not the man you used to be. You have de-evolved into a lower life form and no longer resemble a human being. I long to see the old you, that was a man, from the salad days of the ADC, the creativity the wit you used to have, but have since lost to time and aging.
Cordially.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
Edited by orion
Aug. 11, 2004, 04:49:30 PM EDT
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Post #168,748
8/11/04 5:11:28 PM
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OhmygodIcantstoplaughing!
You are comparing yourself to WOLFGANG AMADEUS MOZART?
[image|http://www.oz.net/~inthane/emotes/jawdrop.gif||||][image|http://www.oz.net/~inthane/emotes/bullshit.gif||||][image|http://www.oz.net/~inthane/emotes/wtf.gif||||]
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
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Post #168,753
8/11/04 5:20:32 PM
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Serenade for Beef Flute and Prozac, in Gee Whizzer
-drl
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Post #168,775
8/11/04 6:55:44 PM
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Stop! Yer killing me!
<noseblow type=coke force=high>
</noseblow>
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,776
8/11/04 6:55:55 PM
8/11/04 6:56:20 PM
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Ooops! Dupe!
See what you went and made me do!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
Aug. 11, 2004, 06:56:20 PM EDT
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Post #168,759
8/11/04 5:58:31 PM
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You are a bore
I've been compared to Mozart before. The depression is almost identical, I think someone made a reference to him and me before in the older forum. That without my medicine, I could be another Mozart. Mozart has influenced me, and I see a parallel with him and myself. My creative genius has developed many great programs that have saved many companies millions of dollars. Yet like Mozart, in the end, I am not rewarded enough for my works. Like Mozart I am criticized, and have some people against me because of the way I act and am.
Therefore, not bullshit.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,761
8/11/04 6:11:42 PM
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When I see something that approaches his genius here...
...I'll give you credit.
Norm, I don't know you in real life. Here, the entirety of our (IWETHEY) experience with you has been in one of three modes:
1. Whine about how everybody is abusing the hell out of you
2. Threatening to kill yourself
3. Faking other personas who make threatening remarks towards you in attempts to draw attention to yourself.
You've recently developed a fourth mode, where you act condescending to everybody while parroting Rush Limbaugh-like propacrap as if it was the truth. It's not much of an improvement, but it is a little.
Now, unlike some other people, I actually expect to see people PRODUCE the goods before calling them a genius. I know, a hard concept. I have yet to see you produce anything that resembles genius. From my perception, you are not a genius. I will retract that when I see something come out of you that shows real genius, as opposed to an ability to parrot other people.
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
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Post #168,874
8/12/04 10:17:44 AM
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You've missed it
my 15 second posts, the delusion that I think I'm a pirate, and the hate mail and flames that follow my posts have had others compare me to another creative genius on the Internet: [link|http://maddox.xmission.com/|http://maddox.xmission.com/]
Like him I am also always right. Instead of posting to my own web site, I post my diatribes to other people's web sites, and save on the hosting fees.
As I said before I don't listen to Rush, I don't listen to the radio much. I post what my mental illness tells me to post. Those other past actions have also been a result of my mental illness being in control.
I don't think I have improved at all, in fact I beg to differ, I believe I have gotten worse. People still conspire against me and try to abuse me, etc.
BTW one of my nicknames in high school was Mozart, one of my classmates nicknamed me that because he compared my behavior and work to Mozart's in some way. I use some Mozart tapes to help me relax, and they improve my learning for my accelorated learning college courses that compress a semester of learning into five weeks.
If you believe me or not makes no difference to me, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,883
8/12/04 10:56:22 AM
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Learn to speak english.
Like him I am also always right. Like you were right about the Mac Jihad being after you, instead of them being a delusional self-creation? There are logs to prove it, too. I post what my mental illness tells me to post. Those other past actions have also been a result of my mental illness being in control. So how am I supposed to tell that you're different now? You're spewing bullshit at the same rate as before... I don't think I have improved at all, in fact I beg to differ, I believe I have gotten worse. People still conspire against me and try to abuse me, etc. And having said that, it makes it obvious to me that you refuse to take responsibility for yourself. All evidence about this supposed "conspiracy" you have forwarded has been found to trace directly back to yourself - you are creating "drama" for yourself by doing this. That's not genius, that's stupidity. If you believe me or not makes no difference to me, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. Then why are you arguing with me? WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
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Post #168,895
8/12/04 12:24:17 PM
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What's that aphorism about wrestling with a pig?
[link|http://www.rayjutkins.com/quotes/quotations011.html|Cale Yarborough].
Hint, hint.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #168,923
8/12/04 2:23:04 PM
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I know.
Just wanted to make my points and bug out. They're made, I'm buggin.
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
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Post #168,892
8/12/04 12:18:06 PM
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Maddox is a loudmouthed boor.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #168,927
8/12/04 2:58:30 PM
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thanks for clearing that up, then
Ah. A high school classmate called you "Mozart." If that's not solid-gold proof of your genius I just don't know what it'll take to satisfy some of your carping critics here.
Be true to your genius, Norm! Listen to your inner voices, particularly when they whisper "You can fly, Norman! Right now! You just have to believe!"
Jump! Jump!
cordially,
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Post #169,114
8/12/04 11:44:20 PM
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Okay, that's a little too far, I think
Let's not encourage that.
I'm getting genuinely worried about Norman.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #169,122
8/12/04 11:58:18 PM
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Norman is as Norman does
if you notice I dont participate its because I no longer see his posts, he is either fine or he is not. Thats Norm, he will outlive us all out of spite.
thanx,
bill
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #169,124
8/12/04 11:59:48 PM
8/13/04 12:40:38 AM
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Yeah, that's true but...
I get more nervous because he's a lot closer in proximity to me than any of you guys. ;)
Edit: Sorry Norman, but you start to scare me when you, well, when you start acting like this... i.e. not like yourself.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Edited by Nightowl
Aug. 13, 2004, 12:40:38 AM EDT
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Post #169,141
8/13/04 6:37:50 AM
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Seems like an upswing
of Manic Depression. About a month ago he seemed a lot better than he had for quite a while. But then he got wierder and wierder in the direction of being all-knowing. Since he can spout very well when he is in this mode, he can probably bullshit his way through less informed groups of people. But here people call him on it.
A while back I stoppped posting to him, thinking I would be pushing him over the edge.
But since this is the flame forum, I'm expected to say something nasty.
So:
JUMP!
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Post #169,277
8/13/04 11:29:47 PM
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I could care less, actually.
I stopped bothering to pay him any attention a long time ago.
My advice to Norm is to stop nibbling on the barrel. Put it in your mouth and pull the trigger.
If you think I'm being unreasonable cruel, then Fuck You, too. I've had enough.
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Post #169,283
8/14/04 1:00:37 AM
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You mean you *couldn't* care less?
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #169,292
8/14/04 3:51:22 AM
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No, that's an American idiom
..and everyone knows exactly what it means.
-drl
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Post #169,296
8/14/04 4:50:28 AM
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No they fucking don't, you philistinic colonial baboon.
:-P
A chap has to maintain the standards expected of this forum.
It's "I could care less", when what you really mean is "I couldn't care less"?
And I thought British English was a weird language. (It is.)
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #169,306
8/14/04 9:02:06 AM
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It doesn't read correctly...
...because when spoken it is done extremely sarcastically.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #169,308
8/14/04 9:18:29 AM
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Nopers.
As Bill pointed out, when you say it sarcastically, it takes on a different meaning.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #169,309
8/14/04 9:35:38 AM
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"Avoid it as Nonstandard"
His Tory lordship is correct. [link|http://www.bartleby.com/68/29/1529.html|Bartleby]: Kenneth G. Wilson (1923\ufffd). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.
could care less, couldn\ufffdt care less
Although many have tried, no one has yet satisfactorily explained how the negative fell out of the older and accepted couldn\ufffdt care less, although logic of course says that could care less makes no sense. Both forms are clich\ufffds, and both are certainly best restricted to the lower Conversational levels and the most Informal of writing. But could care less could also earn you the scorn of logic lovers and clich\ufffd haters alike. Avoid it as Nonstandard. I agree. It's one of those idioms that people say without thinking about. Rather like "The point is is that ..." It reminds me of that famous song, sung by Billie Holiday, The Platters, Fred Sanford, and others: "If I couldn't care less" - [link|http://lyrics.rare-lyrics.com/B/Billie-Holiday/If-I-Didn't-Care.html|Jack Lawrence / Milton Ager]. ;-p Cheers, Scott.
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Post #169,312
8/14/04 10:19:11 AM
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Missing the point.
Yes, it's not logical. When spoken straightforwardly. But as has been pointed out twice, saying it sarcastically gives it a new meaning.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #169,316
8/14/04 10:40:41 AM
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saying it sarcastically
...in the USA gives it a different meaning.
Saying it sarcastically over here simply marks you out as a loony, which is why I was confused.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #169,318
8/14/04 10:47:08 AM
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dont come here and ask someone to bum a fag then
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #169,319
8/14/04 11:06:03 AM
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or knock up your girlfriend, for that matter.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #169,327
8/14/04 12:26:04 PM
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Trouble is, too many *don't* say it sarcastically. ;-)
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Post #169,328
8/14/04 12:31:19 PM
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And we've discussed this before
Bzzt. Wrong. The saying means exactly what it says.
Would it be clearer to you if the saying was, "I suppose that I could care less."?
The claim is that it is possible to care less. The fact that you need to think about and say it indicates that that possibility is remote and unlikely. Of course I pointed this out to you before, but you didn't seem to get it then either.
I guess that someone out there could be stupid enough to find this kind of roundabout insult even more opaque than you do.
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #169,331
8/14/04 2:49:23 PM
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And I could not have cared less, then!
But, I supposed I found out I could care less. I guess I was careless.
/me is not an asshole... all of the time.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
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Post #169,417
8/15/04 9:43:11 PM
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Sorry, but..
I believe this has become an authentic Idiomatic Expression which, despite the possibility of 'interpreting it' as you suggest: always and everywhere meant and means:
[About the topic raised] I don't give a shit\ufffd!!
(And a soup\ufffdon of.. See how non-PC I Am !?! cha cha cha -- in recent years)
That's my brilliant analysis and.. I'm Sticking To It
(see how incisive, perspicuous and Resolute I Am ??)
moi
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Post #169,497
8/16/04 12:18:45 PM
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Peter, try reading it like this:
(the elipsis is in square brackets)
"I could care less about Norm [but I don't]."
or perhaps...
"I could care less about Norm [if I wanted to, but since that would take additional effort, and I have already expended too much effort already on this, I don't].
See? Americlish! It's a wonderful language...
;-\ufffd
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #169,499
8/16/04 12:24:47 PM
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No, I think it really *is* an implied 'not'
Same way, "The server needs upgraded," means, "The server needs to be upgraded." Or, "The trash needs emptied," for, "The trash needs to be emptied." Dropping the "to be" has become very common the last couple of years. It bugs the shit out of me.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #169,504
8/16/04 1:15:44 PM
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Isn't it annoying though...
When Shakespeare's question is shortened down to, "or not". Delivered sarcastically, of course.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #169,508
8/16/04 1:31:12 PM
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As was the original
...delivered sarcastically, that is. Hamlet knows Polonius is eavesdropping.
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Post #170,139
8/19/04 1:11:58 PM
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I got your message
it is not something to joke about, or be sarcastic about.
Truth is, you all want me to end my life, but use the sarcasim to avoid your true feelings. IwT without me, you reason, would be a lot better.
BTW it is Schitzoaffective disorder, not bipolar disorder, I've posted my illnesses before and it is not my mistake if you are too stupid to remember or are such a poor armchar psychologists that you misdiagnose me. I must ask for your qualifications. Are you following Jung or Freud, or perhaps I think you are following Fraud more likely.
As for as kiling myself, I won't do your dirty work, you will have to do it yourself. Come on over and kill me, you know you want to, make it look like a suicide and everyone will believe it.
Face facts, you all care about me about as much as you care about a germ.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #170,219
8/19/04 2:49:53 PM
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Overgeneralizing
you all In proper Texas speech, that should be y'all. But as long as we're on the topic, the question is why you think this is the opinion of the collective "you all". The current poster doesn't rate you in the genus of germ, but neither does he think that discussing personal problems is a particularly rational course of action (especially in proximity of Flame Quarantine). The behavior of said participants did not cause the schism, nor is it likely to result in resolution. Most of the banter along these lines rates as pure noise. You will not necessarily receive affirmation, comfort or solace in the digital world. For that, you must seek the more intimate confines of those around you in the real world. Trying to defend one's trustworthiness is a futile effort, either by clamoring for excellence or feigning inferiority. Nothing gained in valiantly trying to defend one's honor against real or perceived slight. My problem with you as a forum participant has no bearing on what I think you should do with your life (for good or ill). Instead, this community is about exchanging ideas on a vast array of subjects. The problem I have is that the subject constantly revolves around the question of "Orion". Orion as a subject has been beat to death over time. There's not much on the issue that hasn't been bandied about. I know it's a very important subject from your frame of reference, but the question is why that subject is more important than say the War in Iraq. Thousands have died in that conflict, and you don't hear all the people in the region discussing Orion. Orion doesn't rate as a germ, but neither does Orion weigh in as the most important topic worthy of spilling untold amounts of ink. It's definitely not boolean logic of (a) I love you man; or (b) fuck off and die. There are many subtle grades of caring and hatred. Indeed, hatred is not the opposite of love - they both are emotive sense - the opposite would be apathy. Oh well, enuf of thise shit. Get out with your family and stop with the nonsense of worrying about your online avatar in the metaverse.
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Post #170,478
8/20/04 5:15:14 PM
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Once more, with clarity....
I don't give a fuck about him in the slightest. He's not worth the time it would take to scrape him off my shoe.
If he wants to be left alone, then I'd suggest he do us the same favor for a change.
There are times that I don't consider my life a bed of roses either, but you won't see me taking it out on the rest of the world. I'm certainly not going to advertise my "dirty laundry" here or anywhere else.
Quite frankly, I don't think it's any of your (collective "your") concern about what goes on in my private life. My public life and my private life are seperate and have always been that way. That's the way I intend on keeping them.
There's only one or two people here who have EVER heard me voice anything about how my life is doing and they have been private face-to-face conversations. If I wanted everyone to know, I'd have opened my mouth and sprayed the forums with useless shite like Norm has done.
I've given up caring why Norm does what he does. I've heard the excuses time and time again. I'm not accepting them anymore.
I have the same attitude towards people who "attempt" suicide over and over and over again. If you're serious, you'll do it the first time and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, I view the multiple attempts as calls for attention, not help. The first attempt might be a cry for help, maybe even the second attempt, but after 2 I really have to wonder.
As painful as it is to bring this up, Ben Kosse (may he rest in peace, finally) is the perfect example (to me, anyway) of someone who was serious. He was here one day, gone the next. To the best of my knowledge, noone here had a clue what was going on with him at the time.
In the past, when things weren't going well for Norm, he'd talk about killing himself. Everyone here got in a real panic because of what had happened to Ben and they didn't want a repeat.
Fair enough.... the first couple of times Norm did this.
After that, it became obvious to me that all Norm wanted was to feel important; to be the center of attention. I refuse to do that anymore, beyond writing this post.
So, when I say, "Stop nibbling on the barrel, pull the trigger.", I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious.
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Post #170,504
8/20/04 9:21:54 PM
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Those who call attention to themselves...
...many times don't care whether the attention is positive or negative reinforcement. Feelings of persecution serve the same purpose of elevating one's level of self-importance. I don't give a fuck about him in the slightest. He's not worth the time it would take to scrape him off my shoe. If you truly didn't give a fuck, apathy would be the proper response, not animosity. Instead, your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. There's only one or two people here who have EVER heard me voice anything about how my life is doing and they have been private face-to-face conversations. zIWTHEY is not completely void of discussion of personal issues, and I'd like to think that such lines of discussion are not taboo. The issue is more one of moderation and according such topics the weight they deserve given the array of topics being discussed. Discussing Orion as a subject, for good or ill, is not a productive endeaver. Nothing further can be said that hasn't been said - at least those that have any merit. I wish him well in his personal journey, but don't particularly look forward to any further histrionics or backwash from those who carry on vendetta. As painful as it is to bring this up, Ben Kosse (may he rest in peace, finally) is the perfect example (to me, anyway) of someone who was serious. He was here one day, gone the next. To the best of my knowledge, noone here had a clue what was going on with him at the time. Not to denigrate memories of him but, Ben Kosse could come across as a right asshole. This is not to say I didn't like the kid - a real talent that is sorely missed - just that he had the same failings that many on IWETHEY suffer. IWETHEY is chalk full of people that don't seem to have a clue when it comes to moderating their style for the subtleties of social communication - bluntness being preferred as the medium for the message. Which is an issue that crops up in these parts every so often. We have lost some valued members because they felt that the heavy handedness of a large part of the hordes is too overbearing. The obvious question back is why the rest of us stick around, given that compassion can be rather scarce in these parts. Well, one might fit right in, being a coarse asshole and fit right in with the crowd. Or one might be a mashochist, happily enjoying the constant ripping. Or, as the case may be with myself, I neither enjoy being the subject of derision, nor do I feel that my communication fits in with the crowd. Rather I see an interesting cross-section of individuals that really are as different as they are the same. But most importantly, I see the virtue of the various opinions being expressed in a sometimes brutal, but almost always honest manner. But then that just may mean that I'm masochistic after all. As for Orion, perhaps you are on the side of the majority about being miffed with him. I simply responded that I am not of that mindset, preferring to spend time discussing and reading other things that might actually make a difference, as opposed to be a repeat of past circumstances. I do consider it to be irresponsible to taunt for suicide, and consider you an asshole for suggesting such. But in the end, it's a meaningless expression of a sentiment in a semi-hostile environment. It's also playing into the hands of that which seeks attention.
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Post #170,506
8/20/04 9:46:19 PM
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Re: Those who call attention to themselves...
I can vouch for the fact that despite the asshattery, many of the people here are thoughtful and considerate.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #170,508
8/20/04 10:22:59 PM
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Tis true.
But then this is the flame forum, so I thought I'd backhand flame the entire crowd. :-)
Sometimes I'm amazed that this community even exists. It's not really a general forum, but then it's not really a special interest forum either. By all accounts, we should all be complete strangers. And given the amount of time that's elapsed, I've probably been miffed with each and every one of you at one time or another. But yeah, there is a community here, however improbable it's existance. And for the most part I enjoy the intruiging cast of characters.
And there's also a playful and silly strain - perhaps guided by our little LRPD friend. :-)
But to stay on topic for the forum - fuck all of you, very much. (Though I sure wish I had the CRC gift to give proper flamage).
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Post #170,507
8/20/04 9:47:27 PM
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Post of the Year, so far. IMHO. :-) Thanks Chris.
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Post #170,509
8/20/04 10:26:27 PM
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Wasted in the flame forums.
Judging errors skew my chances of such awards - though must admit that this is the first I've heard of the possibility of receiving bestowed honors. :-)
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Post #170,511
8/20/04 10:38:19 PM
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Great post, Chris... a few questions?
...your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed. First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? I would really appreciate your insight on these, as you seem to have a really good view of things. Thanks Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #170,515
8/20/04 11:30:21 PM
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Wish I knew the answers
Living in quarters with a couple of manic-depressives, it would come in quite handy. :-) First question: if someone feels like the above statement, is that unfair to the betrayer? Especially if the someone considered the betrayer to be a true friend? Well, if we're gonna discuss personal things, I might as well discuss my own situation, with which I'm a tad more familiar. The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. Either way, it has to do with the expectations of the person feeling betrayed, rather than the person of derision. Manic-Depressives, at least the one's I'm intimate with, have their good episodes and their bad episodes. From a family perspective, you have no choice but to put up with bad, hoping for better days. I judge them not on their current attitude or behavior, but rather weigh it over the long term. There's not a magic bullet that says they are gonna be cured and it will all be smooth sailing from here on out. Anyhow, if you have to deal with the problem in an immediate sense, you have to try to get perspective. Otherwise, you end up being infected as well. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. And Last Question: Would you look down on someone who came to that conclusion that they needed to give up and stop making the effort for someone because they feel they are just getting nowhere? Or do you think they should persevere to be there for the person in question instead of abandoning them? Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. * Not that any of what I'm saying is particularly prophetic. Sometimes you just have to step back from the situation and recharge your batteries and set your expectations accordingly. Unfortunately, there ain't a damn formula for working with dysfunctional behavior. What works on one person, just makes matters worse on others. Trial and error is about the only method of debugging the program, and oddly what errors in one bout will succeed in another (and vice versa). ** And for the real answers to these questions, I'd have to be somewhere between my second and third beer - the professorial stage. Mind you, that stretch of time is sometimes but a blink of an eye, and it also happens to be when I could be a PGA Golfer. :-)
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Post #170,517
8/20/04 11:47:42 PM
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That makes two of us :)
The feeling of betrayal is based upon expectations. If one feels that one's sympathies and actions are beyond futile, that's one thing. But the feeling that the object of one's affections is purposely being squandered, then that's where betrayal enters the picture. I'm a little confused on the above sentence, can you help me clarify it? I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Please clarify that one sentence? I really want to understand what you said here. When it's not family, this can be rather difficult, as you clearly wonder whether this shit is really worth it. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Second question: And when is it okay to stop making the effort to help or be a friend? Is it ever an acceptable choice if one decides to give up on the "cause" as it were, because they are frustrated and out of answers? I suppose you could go with the touchy feely crap, and hold that a friend always accepts the befriended, for better or worse. Problem is that few friendships can take the natural strain. Best you can do is channel towards the positive, but realize that you're not a savior. Also have to realize that sometimes interspersing yourself into the situation with helpful hints can actually excerbate the problem. Would never abandon a family member, but neither do I think that I have the answer to making the person instantly turnaround with a positive outlook on life.
I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. And I also do not believe I have any answers to their problems, I just try to be by their side, or behind them, (in many cases, not just the current one), and help as much as I can if it's feasible to continue to do. I just don't know when you decide it is no longer feasible. I guess that's just a gut feeling. Much like the hippocratic oath, the first answer to any such question is: Don't do anything that can cause the problem to be worse. You have to measure your response and realize that in both the manic and depressive states, we are not necessarily dealing with rational and coherent behavior. Doesn't mean that you abanadon the effort, but it does mean that you have to measure your response such that it doesn't worsen the plight. That's the other problem. If I do what I feel I might need to do to take care of me, then sometimes it winds up "persecuting" the person in question. That only serves to enforce their persecuted complex or what have you.... so it's a hard call, take care of you, or worry about how it will affect the other person. (sigh) Perseverance is definitely the more compassionate approach, but you also have to worry about becoming part of the problem rather than the solution - either a crutch or part of a persecution complex. If proceeding, then you damn well better have the patience to last it out. Otherwise, you just become another casualty on the road. That's the other problem. I don't always KNOW if I'm part of the problem, which is sometimes why I decide maybe I should step back from it. And I have to be honest, I'm almost out of patience. (sigh) At any rate, you've given me a lot to think about, and I really do appreciate your response to my questions. I think I just have to decide for myself which course to take... just wish it wasn't such a hard decision. Thanks Chris, you helped more than you know. Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #170,527
8/21/04 12:50:19 AM
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Conscience is a tricky bugger
I would assume that "ones sympathies and actions are beyond futile" would mean that nothing I do can affect the situation anymore, is that correct? In more scientific terms: You're damned if do, and damned if you don't. But I'm a little lost on the last part. I always thought the object of one's affections was someone someone loved, so how does it get used in this sentence? Do you mean that the "object" of the betrayer is to "use" (squander) or otherwise manipulate the person feeling betrayed? Betrayal implies a sort of malice. In the current context, I'd consider the person betrayed cared at some point (Love is too loaded a word) and that a gift of dedication, time or resources was provided. The feeling of betrayal comes into play when one thinks that the gift is intentionally squandered (i.e. malice is involved). Manipulation can be a common facet of how that scenario plays out (but is only one of many possibilities). In order to feel betrayed, there must have been an investment (real or imagined) made at one time or another. That's my problem, that's almost where I am. Well then, the immediate problem is not the dysfunctional behavior, but rather it dwells within your conscience. Dealing with the problem from that perspective is a bit more rational, as your course of action is perhaps the one thing you have control over. I rarely abandon friends, it takes a lot to push me away, but sometimes you have to abandon someone (have done so in the past) when they are truly causing you more harm than good by your association with them. That is what I'm trying to weigh here... whether it's worth it to keep up the struggle. If you love it, set it free. If it comes back, then it's open hunting season. :-) Just to play out another scenario, I'd also like to remind that depending on the person making the decision, it can play out differently on a temporal basis. Let's say one had a sister-in-law that was married to a worthless piece of shit, that hadn't held a job for more than a couple of months time over a 20 year period of time. Worthless individual has no inkling of ambition or responsibility, not even being able to act as a child care provider, wasting away drinking beer, doing drugs, and watching the zombie tube. Let's say said person takes a bat and beats the spouse black and blue on the face. Well, most rational people would permanently remove themself from said abuse, and sister-in-law moved five states away and vowed to never have anything to do with said individual again. Well, it was easy to guess what happened within 6 months time - they were back together. Move forward in time. Said individual leaves crystal meth and needles lying on the dinning room table, with toddlers of 2 and 3 running around the house. Again, he gets the final boot. Within a week, he shows up with a broken jaw, as some drug deal had gone bad, and he had the ever living shit beat out of him. She takes him back and nurtures him to health. Wind forward to more recent. Said individual is high as a kite on the 3 year olds birthday, and threatens mother and family with a knife. Kids go nuts and hide in the closet while mom calls the police to escort worthless dad away for 3 months at county. Mother vows to never, ever, ever allow him anywhere near the vicinity. We recommend a restraining order - siggestion goes unheeded. Roll forward to today. He's back. I fucking can't believe such stupidity. What's the moral of this story. I don't know other than final ultimatims are only as final as the person giving the ultimatum. And given where we're at, at the current time, they were worthless and probably contributed in a cause-effect way over the long term. Anyhow, just as you have to view help from a long-term perspective, the decision to not help should also be made over a long haul, not waffling back and forth. * Ok, enuf of this personal advice. Anyone that takes my advice should probably have their fucking head examined (well, we do have to try to feign staying on topic in this quarantine). And anyone that's just rolling their eyes, hoping to be spared this thread - well - I love you too. :-)
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Post #170,529
8/21/04 1:31:24 AM
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Thanks
That clarifies it really well.
I would have moved this out of the Flame Forum, hehe, but I had no idea where it would go if I had....
Hmmmm obligatory flame..... I'm not really good at those....
Besides, isn't being kind to your enemy the equivalent of heaping burning coals on their heads? Hehee! There's my flame, burning coals!
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #170,534
8/21/04 9:17:02 AM
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you can be a good fucking flamer
after all yer a woman,
just bring up the obligatory
LOSER, GET A FUCKING REAL JOB SO I CAN BUY SOME DECENT (insert object of desire here) YOUR FUCKING FAMILY, YOUR BROTHER GIVES BETTER HEAD.
see its easy. :-)
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #170,544
8/21/04 11:02:35 AM
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Oh sure, I can say the words
Problem is, I can't put the heart into it and the meaning behind it, because I'm just too damn nice and considerate. ;) It just ain't me.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #170,536
8/21/04 9:55:22 AM
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Some people always find a way to make the wrong choice.
It's oh so very painful to watch. Been there. :-(
I feel for you, Chris.
In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control.
It's my experience that adults rarely change personality traits or pathologies. It takes some sort of major event to get people to change (myself included), and even then it's easy to revert back to the previous trait or behavior. We're all creatures of habit.
It's easy to see a solution from a distance, but unfortunately, it's often impractical to implement it. In the abstract, someone needs to babysit said SIL and make sure she doesn't make the wrong decisions wrt said WPoS. That, in the abstract, means someone needs to take her and her children in. But I'm sure that's impossible and I'm sure that she wouldn't accept that anyway.
That's the solution I tried with my mother. It lasted less than 2 years and the stress damaged my relationship with her (even more). And in the end, it only delayed her spiral down for a while.
So even if one sees the solution, and tries ones best to implement it, there's only so much a person can do to help someone else. Ultimately, personal responsibility is the most important thing. If it's not there, moving Heaven and Earth won't help. Sometimes support group discussions can help the person, but too often they're impractical to attend. :-(
Hang in there. And best of luck to said SIL and her little ones.
Remember, we don't get to pick our relatives. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #170,545
8/21/04 11:06:22 AM
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No Kidding, Scott...
I'm sorry about your SIL too, Chris. It's so hard to watch people continue to put themselves in the same situations over and over. In my mother's case, her worst problem was managing money. (And she remarried a worthless slug of a person, but we shan't go there. ;-) The only way to keep her from mismanaging her finances was to make the decisions for her, or more accurately, prevent her from making financial decisions. After her stroke she ended up in a nursing home, so that part of her pathology finally was put under control. Reminds me of when a friend and I took another friend under our "management" and tried to help him manage his money... it failed completely, and ended with the IRS and the Police both coming to our doors. Fortunately we got out of the liability of it, but I had to ultimately abandon said friend who was causing all the problems.... even though I promise his mother on her death-bed I would look after her son.. Yeah right... some people just can't and won't help themselves, and trying to help them just gets you ensnared in their messes. Stupid SOB finally left town with police warrants out everywhere... hope he never comes back. Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #170,520
8/21/04 12:10:07 AM
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2 things
If you truly didn't give a fuck, apathy would be the proper response, not animosity. Instead, your words read more like one that did give a fuck at one time, and feel betrayed.
Not betrayed, just totally fucking pissed off and gettig tired of the whole fucking thing. AFAIAC, Norm's been a whiner from day one and I'm tired of it.
Don't like the way I blow my top? Too bad. It's been a long time coming. I'm surprised I contained it this long.
I do consider it to be irresponsible to taunt for suicide, and consider you an asshole for suggesting such.
Hey, then I'm an asshole. BFD. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Neither will you, I suppose.
We agree to disagree.
I really don't give a shit what you, or anyone else, thinks of me. Never have; never will.
I don't care to discuss Norm. I don't care to see others wasting their time on him, although there's not much I can do about it. It's their time to waste. I just wonder how many times you can smack your head into a brick wall before you figure out that it hurts. It usually takes only once for me.
YMSTV, mine doesn't.
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Post #170,564
8/21/04 2:15:39 PM
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*sniff*
I really don't give a shit what you, or anyone else, thinks of me. Never have; never will. I don't doubt it you snivelling little butterscotch schnappes drinkin toad-headed BASTARD! stylewhack2 n3jja If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #170,592
8/21/04 7:25:58 PM
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*snicker*
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Post #170,600
8/21/04 10:05:16 PM
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*shrug* couldn't help myself ;-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #170,521
8/21/04 12:12:11 AM
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sorry you had to have been there
saw the expression and the delivery of this verbalization of the contents of this particularization.
done over with
posted either get on with ir or shut the fuck up
jimbo, correct me if ZI am wrong,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #170,563
8/21/04 2:12:14 PM
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We're not worthy...we're not worthy ;-)
Nice post. Fuck you for making it!
(it is flame forum, yes??)
So piss off!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #170,958
8/25/04 4:10:34 PM
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Spitting on a grave
I mentioned Ben in my Yahoo Group, and Beep accused me of "Spitting on a grave".
I guess what I was trying to get at, is that Ben and I are alike in some ways and different in other ways. Unlike Ben, I don't hide my illness and when I get suicidal, I announce it and I get help before I actually do kill myself. This is one of the few things that has kept me alive. I've had friends who kept their problems to themselves, and pretty much put a gun in their mouths and pulled the trigger. I also have friends who didn't keep it to themselves but were able to tell someone before they did try to kill themselves, and are thus alive today.
In case you haven't noticed it, I do not want attention. That is all my "I want to be left alone" posts are about. If it really bothers you that much, CSS filter me, if you are smart enough to figure out how to do that.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #170,477
8/20/04 4:43:08 PM
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No you didn't. You're still here.
And who the fuck said I was joking or being sarcastic?
Stop whining and pull the trigger.
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Post #170,482
8/20/04 5:25:08 PM
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Playing Russian Rulette with Norm?
Yes, most of the holes are empty. Are you sure that all are? If not, given enough time and encouragement, it may just work, you know? So please keep your "pull the trigger" where Norm can't see it.
--
"...was poorly, lugubrious and intoxicated."
-- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
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Post #170,483
8/20/04 5:41:26 PM
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I believe that, "Blow Me", is the proper response.
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Post #170,960
8/25/04 4:17:15 PM
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Trust me, you aren't even worth it
remove one of your ribs and then you can go blow yourself! With your attitude, you'll must likely end up alone in life anyway.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,981
8/12/04 5:17:25 PM
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Now that you've made it clear
that it's Mr. Amadeus-Illness in charge, and that those wispy remnants of some 'Norman - 1, 2, 3, n' et al - have been crowded into the Quarantine cell-block, within the labyrinth of this Brave New psyche-du-jour:
All you need is the Cape, Crusader.
Certainly, You Can Fly! ..in C# Minor
(Before 11/2, I'd bet.)
No Guts / No Glory
I'll be watching the Darwin Awards for a full report.
Hell.. you might even get an Ignobel
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Post #168,774
8/11/04 6:53:46 PM
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ROFL!!!!!
I gotta find those icons!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,780
8/11/04 7:03:14 PM
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I've got a few here:
[link|http://www.oz.net/~inthane/emotes/|http://www.oz.net/~inthane/emotes/]
Go there, it will give you the traditional directory listing, click on individuals for preview. :)
WANTED: Precognitive Telepath for adventuring Partnership. You know where to apply.
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Post #168,581
8/11/04 7:59:17 AM
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unfortunately Homo Fatuous is the Sunday crowd
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #168,495
8/10/04 5:01:47 PM
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I am not stupid and I am sticking to my statement
if you do not agree with it, then you have that right.
Yes I feel that the war in Iraq was justified, to free the Iraqi people. We just gained an ally in an unstable Middle-East with the new Iraqi government, and a new market to trade with. If these facts trouble you, then you are the one who needs to pull his head out. You after all, only see the negative, and listen to biased partesian pollitics too much and don't really think for yourself. Try looking at the postive for a while, and see the benefits. Look at the other side of the issues if you dare.
Your fallacy of personal attacks on me or President Bush do not impress me, and only goes to show how bad your character is and how biased you really are.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,497
8/10/04 5:07:16 PM
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Re: I am not stupid &c
Yes you are. We just gained an ally in an unstable Middle-East with the new Iraqi government, and a new market to trade with. Did I say "shit-for-brains"? Shit's smarter than that.
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Post #168,739
8/11/04 4:52:02 PM
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Ah yes
I see it now, you are unable to grasp facts and concepts. You've obviously started slipping some time ago. This is natural, and part of life and aging. Soon you will end up in a nursing home, and then go the way of the dinosaur.
Only shit is in your depends.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,740
8/11/04 4:53:57 PM
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Now that's an LRPD!
Did I say "shit-for-brains"? Shit's smarter than that.
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #168,499
8/10/04 5:39:47 PM
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WTF are you talking about, moron?
We just gained an ally in an unstable Middle-East with the new Iraqi government, and a new market to trade with.
Lemme see. They may be nominally an ally, but right now we are providing them with troops and support rather than vice versa. The imbalance is rather large, and shows no signs of abating in the forseeable future.
Lemme see. They are nominally a market for us to trade with, but most of the business to be done in Iraq right now is with the US government. In other words we are the ones paying for war profiteering.
Lemme see. The big export that everyone cares about from Iraq is oil. Oil exports from Iraq have dropped from 2.5 million barrels a day (pre-invasion) to an average of a million barrels a day (post-invasion). With wide fluctuations. For instance in the last few days renewed fighting just dropped Iraq from 1.9 million barrels a day to back to 1.1 million barrels a day. This means that we have worse exports from that market than we did before! (Even if they were not exporting directly to us before, their exports helped depress world-wide prices for petroleum.)
Lemme see. Throughout the Middle-East our support has dropped like a rock. For instance Jordan went from 70% approval of the USA 2 years ago to under 10% per day. That means that people who were our allies now either aren't, or else they are but are going to be forced to do a lot less because of internal discontent. That's a net loss in terms of numbers of allies. And those were allies that we didn't have to spend many our dollars and lives to retain!
Let's see if I can make this simple for you. One way to measure Bush's success is by the gas prices that you see at the pump. Please do so. After all his regime started by mismanaging an energy crisis in California. I wouldn't mind seeing it end on the shoals of a world-wide energy crisis that he and Dick Cheney helped contribute to.
Regards,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #168,757
8/11/04 5:48:10 PM
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No, WTF are you talking about moron?
Based on 1945 prices and given a rate of 4% inflation, gas should be a lot higher today than it should be.
Gas prices are based on oil prices, availability of oil refineries and how much they can produce. You have to look at the whole market of oil:
A transcript from the Washington Post on an Interview with Guy Caruso, Administrator of the Energy Information Administration, shows that gas prices have hit a 23-year high (Washington Post, 2004, p. 1). Mr. Caruso states \ufffdThere are two main reasons why gasoline prices have risen this year. First, the price of crude oil, from which gasoline is refined, has increased from about $30 per barrel in early December to more than $40 in recent days. This increase alone would explain about 25 cents a gallon of the increase in gasoline (Washington Post, 2004, p. 2).\ufffd Mr. Caruso continues, \ufffdThe second main reason gasoline prices are higher is that our growth in gasoline demand this year has outpaced our growth in supply. As a result, our inventories are very low, which reduces flexibility throughout the U.S. gasoline market system. Thus, any problems with supply or unexpected increase in demand are met with higher prices (Washington Post, 2004, p. 2).\ufffd Apparently the two main factors are an increase in oil prices, and an excess demand.
What major factors have caused the excess demand for oil in the world? Mr. Caruso answers, \ufffdEconomic development in Asia, particularly China and India, has been robust in recent years. As the Chinese economy has grown, their appetite for oil has increased such that China is now the second largest oil consuming country in the world. Oil demand growth in China currently represents a large share of global oil demand growth. Global oil demand has outpaced growth in supply, contributing to the current tightness in oil markets (Washington Post, 2004, p. 4).\ufffd
Washington Post (2004, May 27, 2004). Transcript Rising Gas Prices. Retrieved August 11, 2004, from [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46044-2004May21.html|http://www.washingto...44-2004May21.html]
So the price of oil can accout for a 25 cents increase per gallon, yet gas has raised up more than that. So what is the other factor? Demand for oil and gas, and economics teaches us that as demand rises, and supply does not keep up, that prices rise also. So this can account for the remaining price hikes in gas.
So then your argument that involvement in Iraq was the only factor of the gas price hikes is a fallacy. You've obviously ingored the rising demand for gas in the world.
Ok, now many non-government US citizens were attacked or beheaded by terrorists. They were there because a corporation sent them there to do business with Iraq. Truck drivers, business consultants, teachers, and other non-military types. There is, indeed US corporations doing business with Iraq, and not just the US government. Hence you have committed another fallacy. US companies continue to sell to Iraq, when once Iraqis had to smuggle US goods in, for example. There are services being sold to Iraq as well, to help stuggling businesses, one of my past instructors runs a company that does just that for Iraq and other parts of the world. So there is evidence of trade.
Jordan was a loss to begin with, before the 9/11 attacks, they didn't like us because of our support of Israel. Iraq was a lost cause, no support of the US and very hostile to the US in viewpoints. What exactly did Jordan do for us? How many terrorists did they turn in, what aid or help did they give us to recover from the 9/11 attacks? So I question just how good an ally they've been. I do believe it was more of a pollitical thing than a real world thing. Apparently we traded Iraq for Jordan, and gained a real ally.
As Iraq grows and recovers, so will their economy and military. Once they are able to pump more oil and refine more gas, they can grow their economy and help to lower gas and oil prices. Yet you turn a blind-eye to this, and only see the short-term effect, and not the long-term effect and the payoff.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,772
8/11/04 6:52:12 PM
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Watch Norm attempt his hand at facts
Unfortunately he's picking the wrong ones.
First of all I never said that Bush is the only factor in current oil prices. I did say that you could choose to judge him that way. But those statements are different.
On top of your other factors for prices of oil, another that is frequently cited is uncertainty about the stability of the Middle-East. I've seen estimates that this contributes about $10/barrel to the cost of crude. Is that the only factor in price increases? Of course not - in fact you correctly label some others. But it is a big component (by the above estimate about 1/3 of the rise from 1999 to the present) and it is a component largely caused by this administration.
As for our popularity in the Middle-East, I just doublechecked and I'd named the wrong country. Jordan didn't like us much in 2002, we only got a favourable rating from a third of them. Of course that was a darned sight better than the 15% we're at now. There are lost causes and really badly lost causes. One of our traditional friends there is Egypt - and why not, when we give them $4 billion/year? Well 98% of them dislike us these days. Our best ally is Saudi Arabia, you might remember them as the people who you said would never support attacking us because it isn't in their interest. Our support there dropped from 12% to 4%. When 96% of a country that we really depend on dislikes us, we've got a problem.
Now you don't seem to see this as a problem. You're willing to write off the support that we had in the Middle East. You're willing to ignore the fact that our wars have caused uncertainty which is bad for oil. You're willing to not think about how we get out of this mess.
But then again, you're an idiot.
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #168,877
8/12/04 10:31:46 AM
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Watch Ben go down in flames
You didn't say any other factors, and implied that was the only factor. In fact, you blamed Bush for the high oil prices due to the war in Iraq. Yet there are other factors that Bush is not responsible for like the growing demand in other countries.
The middle-east has been unstable long before the Iraqi War. The source I cited, which has more credibility than you, said there was only a 25 cent rise in gas price due to the $10 increase in a barrel of oil, which as you claim, is due to the unstability of the middle-east. You also claim that this source is wrong, and instead of 25 cents increase it is more like 1/3rd the price, yet you have no source to cite this, unlike me.
Confusing Jordan with another country is just the start of your mistakes. Apparently you cannot tell the difference between one or another. US support has been dropping long before the Iraqi War, in fact the Hatred of the US spreads through the would and even Canada has dropped in support. This AntiAmericanism has reached even you, it is being spread by the terrorists and enforced by people like Michael Moore. This AntiAmericanism existed before Bush even took office, and has been growing since the past 30 years or so. How soon you forget the Iranian Hostage crisis? Yet I suspect you've obviously confused that with something else as well?
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,991
8/12/04 5:33:31 PM
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While. You're. Raving.
Strive for, at least [link|http://maddox.xmission.com/tictacs.html| consistency].
Your Controlling-Psyche finds you in contempt of Courtesans.
Meanwhile, have a Tic-Tac\ufffd and cool out. In a few days, you'll be back to.. whatever.
(We still love-you-but-hate-the-bad-meds you've been overdosed with)
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Post #170,956
8/25/04 4:03:06 PM
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Ah Ashton, yet you don't understand
you want me to commit plagerism and copy everything Maddox says?
[link|http://maddox.xmission.com/plagiarism.html|http://maddox.xmissi...m/plagiarism.html]
So I take a different position, use different words, etc. On Slashdot this is seen as funny and I am considered a Comic Genius there. My karama is excellent there.
You've made the Maddox = Orion Blastar fallacy. Shame on you!
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,509
8/10/04 6:06:16 PM
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"Jane, you ignorant slut.."
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Post #168,513
8/10/04 6:25:22 PM
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Norm's calculus:
Gain one "ally" in the ME with a propped-up government in Eye-rack that will not survive 2 weeks when the last U.S."Coalition" troups pull out.
Lose just about all our NATO allies, whose backing has meant a whole lot more over the decades than any puppet govenrment we can install to expidite the extradition of all the [oil].
Brilliant math, dude! Hey, Know what? I got this bridge....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,533
8/10/04 10:17:17 PM
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On that...we may agree.
They don't fit the def of ally anyway. More like puppet, puppet.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,514
8/10/04 6:30:22 PM
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I vaguely remember a quote from Chesterton
to the effect that a strong man never says "I am not weak".
--
"...was poorly, lugubrious and intoxicated."
-- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
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Post #168,561
8/11/04 2:28:00 AM
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But a US President said, "Your President is not a crook!"
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Post #168,562
8/11/04 2:32:16 AM
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Re: I vaguely remember a quote from Chesterton
Having just read the memoir of a death camp 5-year survivor, I can say that he attributes his survival precisely to lack of weakness, to sharp instinct for survival and physical robustness. So the quote is of doubtful value. Perhaps better - "I am strong enough."
-drl
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Post #168,610
8/11/04 11:07:23 AM
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Precisely
A strong person either keeps his/her peace, or says something like "I [hope I ] am strong enough". But never "I am not weak". The way I understand Chesterton on this, you need two elements to produce "I am not weak": external evidence of weakness that leads to the question, and the internal lack of confidence that produces the answer.
--
"...was poorly, lugubrious and intoxicated."
-- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
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Post #168,532
8/10/04 10:15:45 PM
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Bzzt.
I wouldn't have gone quite so far off on the man jb.
In many cases, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not saying that is the specific case here...but parsed gramatically that statement wasn't >that< outlandish. In fact, in the one instance that BL asked for support he was rebuffed. So in those "official" circles they were indeed NOT allies.
BUT, both BL and Saddam support terrorism. Hussein did so economically (35 million in payments to families of suicide bombers) and also by providing safe harbor and did nothing to stop training in IRAQ. (Abu Nidal among others).
There is no doubt of Bin Laden's ties to terrorism.
While there is no tacit proof that Hussein supported attacks on the US, they were the only Arab country that did not officially condemn the act. In fact, they went so far as to announce on official radio that we were "reaping the fruit of our crimes against humanity". The next day Hussein's son was commiserating with the plight of Bin Laden.
So while you rail on Norm for using this to justify the war...that is not what he said in the quoted statement. Yes, we know that this is no justification for the war for most everyone here...but the reaction was a shade over the top.
Of course...this is my opinion and I don't expect you to agree with it :-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,735
8/11/04 4:40:43 PM
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Thank you
you are too kind.
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,781
8/11/04 7:05:21 PM
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Now, parse the WHOLE statement
The S4B part is the "[...]in that thought they are allies." No, they're not; even a presidential-sponsored study group explicitly said they were not allies. It's really quite simple: Norm parrots the company line that Saddam and al-Qaeda are allies, the work of the rest of the world demonstrates that they weren't.
And for that, I blasted the fool!
But you don't have to agree with me, either... ;-)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,875
8/12/04 10:20:17 AM
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Read it again Moron!
"in that thought they are allies"
I drew a parallel thought between them, and said in that thought they are allies. I'll draw another parallel for you, both you and Osama Bin Laden hate Bush, in that thought you both are allies! Take that!
"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
[link|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268|I am from District 268].
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Post #168,880
8/12/04 10:47:18 AM
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He just wanted to yell at you.
Thats how I read what you wrote...so methinks it was adequately understandable.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,921
8/12/04 2:07:01 PM
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You do simile as badly as you do facts!
And when you have a chance, look up reductio ad absurdum And then try not to do it again.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #168,995
8/12/04 5:48:15 PM
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In that spirit, then -
Let's pretend that Mr. Intellect has been given a small supporting role here, for a few minutes -
It can be argued with quite larger probability that Osama LOVES GW Bush!
Bush has given him vastly more than he ever dreamed to achieve (all on a budget apparently of.. $400-500,000; how's That for imbalance in War Costs for any opposing sides in the *History of the World , Mr. Newly-minted Econ Maestro?)
* forgetting for this minute that, you don't know shit about any of that History stuff, except from that 9 months-crammed-into --> 28 minutes, fois gras course.
So then:
Which 'President' do you imagine .. ... ....
Mr. Bin-L WISHES to have in place, next, huh?
..with a WIN like that, so far.
Please consult Mr. Maddox before going with Mr. Mozart; I know you'll sort it out.
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