Hopefully, it makes the Palestinians more realistic

Post #151,573 by bluke 4/18/04 8:18:08 AM Reply	Hopefully, it makes the Palestinians more realistic The sooner the Palestinians understand that there is no right of return the sooner they will be able to actually negotiate a reasonable settlement. The Palestinians want it both ways, they want a Palestinian state with no Jews in it, and they want to return to Israel as well turning Israel into a second Palestinian state. There is no precedent anywhere for the right of return, just look at India and Pakistan. In addition, the Palestinians need to learn that actions have consequences. They could have had a much better deal 3.5 years ago at Camp David, instead they started a war of terrorism. You can't make a deal if the other side believes that they have nothing to lose by waiting. The Palestinians until now have worked with the following assumption. No matter what they do they can always get a deal based on the 67 borders. Therefore, they have no incentive to truly negotiate, stop the terror, etc. What do they gain? They are still hoping that with terrorism etc. they will get more. What Bush has done is say that actions do have consequences, and the fact that the Palestinians haven't accepted a deal will hurt them. Hopefully this brings the Palestinians to a more realistic stance.
Post #151,582 by Another Scott 4/18/04 10:59:19 AM Reply	You make some good points. Thanks.
Post #151,657 by JayMehaffey 4/18/04 7:19:00 PM Reply	Re: Hopefully, it makes the Palestinians more realistic There is no precedent anywhere for the right of return, just look at India and Pakistan. The problem is that you can apply that to Isreal also, which wipes out a large percent of the reason for the country to exist. Like it or not, the same historical rational that says that Isreal should be where it is, says that the Palistinians have just as much right to that land. The problem with the Palistinian right of return has nothing to do with them having a legitimate claim, rather the problem is that there isn't enough land in Isreal to let them back in. You can't make a deal if the other side believes that they have nothing to lose by waiting. The Palestinians until now have worked with the following assumption. No matter what they do they can always get a deal based on the 67 borders. Therefore, they have no incentive to truly negotiate, stop the terror, etc. What do they gain? And quite a few Isreali governments have stalled also, knowing that the longer they stall the more land the settlers take. Both sides of this dispute are guilty of many crimes, and both sides have large groups that wish the dispute to continue. Solving the dispute is going to require an outside mediator that can force both sides to negotiate fairly. What Bush has done is say that actions do have consequences, and the fact that the Palestinians haven't accepted a deal will hurt them. Hopefully this brings the Palestinians to a more realistic stance. That might be what Bush had in mind, but that is not how it will come across to the Palestinians. They will percive it as meaning that there is no reason to negotiate at all now, because now that the US has sided with Isreal there is nobody that will force Isreal to keep any agreements they sign. Jay
Post #151,659 by boxley 4/18/04 7:29:34 PM Reply	enough land isnt the question its the keeping Israel a home for the Jews. If an Islamic government got voted in by plurality in less than 10 years according to some estimates it would be death for all jews all the time.. With an Hamas operative in charge of the courts, Arafat heading the Supreme Court, Hezbulla in charge of housing and the EU wringing its hands going please stop now. Thats why there will be no right to return now or in the future. Unlike the territiries Israel has elections. I suppose they could do what the Arabs do, have one election and spend the next fifty years saying we are democratic, we had one election already. no need for more. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,668 by a6l6e6x 4/18/04 8:15:47 PM Reply	But then you reap what you sow. The Zionist came to dispossess and annihilate the locals. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,672 by boxley 4/18/04 8:35:04 PM Reply	came to what and when? They came to a desert bought land, cultivated it and only defended after attack upon attack by folks brought there by greed who wanted what another had built without doing the work themselves. That was the origin until statehood. After statehood land was grabbed and people killed, but the Arabs were on the offense until 1948. After that they went on offence many times but lost many times. When the Jews were going into camps during the War the Mufti Of Jerusalem was there inviting the Germans to come and finish the group in the ME. I have sympathy for the current folks but non at all for the people that brought them to their current impasse. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,685 by a6l6e6x 4/18/04 9:36:34 PM Reply	That's a false premise. [link\|http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm\|Jews For Justice In The Middle East]: The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine to reclaim their ancestral homeland in the late 19th century. Jews bought land and started building their Jewish community their. They were net with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs` inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today. The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet shall show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present). The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence to Arab society in Palestine.Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the Population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century (over 1200 years). In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world-view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn\ufffdt matter. The Arabs` opposition to Zionism wasn\ufffdt based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,688 by boxley 4/18/04 9:39:03 PM Reply	well nicely worded spin to fit your view but we have been down this path before. The british actively helping the Jews? When the Jordanian officer corp was to a man British Army after 48 I tend to doubt that. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,690 by a6l6e6x 4/18/04 9:52:13 PM Reply	Did you get to the Balfour Declaration part? Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,709 by boxley 4/18/04 11:15:46 PM Reply	when do my wife and kids get to move in upstairs? Balfour, the Jews get everything wast of the Jordan the Arabs everything east. When does it go into effect? people pay cash for dirt. They spend more cash for more dirt. The locals dont like it start attacking the newcomers. Sounds like upstate NY and the Mowhawks to me. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,841 by a6l6e6x 4/19/04 5:47:20 PM Reply	The Balfour Declaration was just an idiot's thought. It has no meaningful significance. Makes as much sense as Bush declaring the Sunni triangle in Iraq as the new homeland for US illegals from Mexico. Populating the cradle of civilization and all. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,868 by boxley 4/19/04 10:25:01 PM Reply	As long as Rceaga has a history of belonging in Falujah that the western world celebrates twice a year with lots of rejoiceing in and fingering their knives and muttering in their beards about those despicable Mexicans running the world, let them move there. You cant be hosannaing the christ one minute and then claim Jews dont belong in JUDEAH the next. Pick one story to beleive in and stick with it. Next thing you will tell me that manifest destiny was ordained by whities god to use the good land the Indians didnt use efficiently. Jews needed a homeland, not welcome anywhere else as equal citizens so might as well let them have the one they always lived in before several other attempts to evict them permanently. The locals could have made welcome, as prior to 600AD they probably were the same folk. Their leaders determined otherwise and made a determined effort AGAIN to rid them from the soil. They killed everyone in Hebron, they killed all in Safed who NEVER LEFT in the years PRIOR to 1948 from the roman evictions. As expected the cousins who had been living elsewhere until they PAID for their dirt and moved in took exception. No matter all your distaste and hatred for Sharon and his despicable acts does not entitle you to kill all the Jews who dare set foot in Israel. Or to place people in charge whose only goal is to kill all the Jews in Israel and make sure all the rest of the jews be moved there to be killed. What is happening is wrong and will be sorted out but not by Hamas, Sharon and Arafat and Hizbullah, the sooner they die and determined men in the PA take over with pragmatic vision there will be Palestine. The dinosaurs have to become extinct first. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,874 by a6l6e6x 4/19/04 10:48:08 PM Reply	In the words of Mordechai Vanunu: Via [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3640989.stm\|BBC]: "We don't need a Jewish state," he said. "There needs to be a Palestinian state." He added that there was no need for him to reveal anything more about Israel's nuclear programme, as the US and Europe already had all the information they needed. "Despite everything that was published, nothing changed - no one came to Israel and made [disarmament] demands," he said. Among government restrictions to be placed on Mr Vanunu's movements are thought to be a ban on going abroad, on speaking to foreigners and on getting within a hundred yards of any foreign embassy in Israel in case he should seek asylum. 'Totalitarian' state A brother of the former technician, Meir, said it was "scandalous" that Shin Bet - the internal security service - had allowed the interrogation to be broadcast. "This reminds one of the methods of a totalitarian country," he told AFP news agency. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,877 by boxley 4/19/04 11:34:04 PM Reply	so you agree that only arabs who want to kill all jews are the only ones entiltled to rule over the jews then with real regret you can say you didnt mean for them all to die. I know you are not like this so I will exit this sub thread, thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #151,886 by a6l6e6x 4/20/04 1:11:14 AM Reply	That's not what the man is saying. No one is killing anyone. He is proposing the "one state", I think sectarian, solution. The summabitch converted to Christianity in prison. I ask you to one more time to think about the [link\|http://savvytraveler.publicradio.org/show/features/2002/20020503/interview3.shtml\|synagogue in Tunisia] that was attacked by al Qaeda. There's been a Jewish community there for 2500 years (i.e. from a prior Diaspora). So Jews can coexist with the "goyem" with reasonable harmony. I'll grant you it's become more difficult since the creation of Israel and word of its atrocities spreading. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,892 by bluke 4/20/04 2:16:28 AM Reply	I guess the existence of Israel was responsible for... The crusades, the Spanish inqi=uisition and expulsion of Jews from Spain, teh pogroms in Russia in the 1880's, the Holocaust etc.
Post #151,958 by a6l6e6x 4/20/04 3:56:41 PM Reply	Did I say that? :) Or deny that the events you cite occurred? Lot's of minorities have suffered at the hands of majorities, or the powerful, or the religious. So it's your turn to do the same and annihilate the pesky Palestinians and everybody else shut the fuck up? Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,889 by bluke 4/20/04 2:11:58 AM Reply	Instead they should have executed him ... like the US did to the Rosenberg's
Post #151,959 by a6l6e6x 4/20/04 3:57:38 PM Reply	I agree, it would have been in character. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #152,039 by bluke 4/21/04 2:42:52 AM Reply	Actually not considering that Israel has no death penalty It is very much in character for the US where even retarded teen age criminals are exexcuted.
Post #152,051 by Another Scott 4/21/04 7:11:47 AM Reply	Since when? Honest question. I thought one of the Nazi war criminals (I've forgotten his name) was hung in Israel. Cheers, Scott.
Post #152,081 by bluke 4/21/04 12:23:54 PM Reply	He was Israel has the death penalty in law for only two crimes - Nazi war crimes, and cases of "extreme terrorism." In all its history the State of Israel has conducted only one judicial execution - that of the Nazi Adolph Eichmann. What this means is that for all intents and purposes Israel does not have a death penalty even though officially the law is on the books.
Post #152,181 by a6l6e6x 4/21/04 11:56:59 PM Reply	Not counting summary executions without trial of any... Palestinain that happens to be in sight. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #152,201 by boxley 4/22/04 8:21:56 AM Reply	bargouti ring a bell, he was summarily killed? Arafat? attempting to explain profiling doesn't require one to take a position for or against it any more than attempting to explain gravity requires one to be for or against gravity. Walter Williams questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #152,241 by a6l6e6x 4/22/04 3:04:03 PM Reply	Re: Arafat? Sharon needs Arafat. It was explained in Haaretz yesterday and I should have linked it. As long as Arafat is around, Sharon need not talk to Palestinians and just keep killing and robbing them of dignity, livelihood, and land. The best thing for some Palestinian to do would be to knock off Arafat. Barghouti is the back up for Arafat in case someone does take out Arafat. Sharon was not born yesterday. Alex Sacred cows make the best hamburger. --Mark Twain
Post #151,890 by bluke 4/20/04 2:14:29 AM Reply	Considering that the British and the French drew ... all the lines in the Middle East and much of Africa at that time, let's just redo everything. After al who gave them the right ot create Iraq or draw the border between Syria and Palestine and Lebanon, etc. Iraq was a creation of the British (if I am not mistaken Winston Churchill) to safeguard the oil there.
Post #151,720 by bluke 4/19/04 4:26:52 AM Reply	Re: Hopefully, it makes the Palestinians The Israeli government offered almost all the territory back about a month after the war (started by the Arabs to throw the Jews into the sea)in 1967. The Arabs responded with the famous 3 no's of Khartoum. The fact is that there was no one to negotiate with in the 1970's and 1980's. The PLO was crowned by the Arabs as the representative and the PLO did not recognize the right of Israel to exist. When Egypt sat down to talk they got back every inch of territory in 1978. It is hard to deny the Jews historic connection to the land. See [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=151574\| here ] for a humorous take on this. Jews have lived in Judea (the West Bank) uninterrupted for thousands of years. For a Jewish government to deny Jews to live in their holiest cities would be criminal. This is how the "settlements" started. The bottom line is that time doesn't stand still. If the Arabs had accepted the UN partition plan they would have had a state in 1948. If they would have accepted Israel's offere in 1967 they would have had all the territory. They didn't and now the facts on the ground have changed. There are 22 Arab countries comprising 99% of all the land in the Middle East. Is it too much to give the Jews 1% of the land? As I stated population transfers have occurred in many places. During wars that is what happens. The Arabs started teh war and reaped the consequences. Here also, over 800,000 Jews fled Arab countries to Israel from 1948-1953.
Post #151,722 by bluke 4/19/04 4:36:45 AM 4/19/04 4:37:02 AM Reply	Definition of refugees According to most estimates about 800,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948 many of them leaving because the Arab leaders told them to. Somehow this has mushroomed into 3.5 - 4 million refugees 50+ years later. This is unprecedented in history. Think about this, UNWRA is the only UN refugee organization of it's kind and has been in existence for over 50 years. It's very existence perpetuates the refugee problem. Every other refugee issue in the world has been solved in much less time then the Palestinians. Why are they still living in refugee camps 50+ years later? Edited by bluke April 19, 2004, 04:37:02 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #151,779 by JayMehaffey 4/19/04 1:01:55 PM Reply	It would be nice It would be nice if the other countries in the region had accepted the Palestinians into their countries as part of the population. It would have prevented a lot of problems. But they didn't and they are not going to. Sometimes I think the Isreali's don't understand that it doesn't matter how resonable their posistion is. The point of negotiating a deal with other countries and groups is to find a posistion that everybody finds acceptable. Jay
Post #151,783 by bluke 4/19/04 1:11:44 PM 4/19/04 1:13:55 PM Reply	That goes for both sides to ask on one hand for your own state with no Jews in it and on the other hand claim that millions of refugees can go back to Israel is ludicrous. The right of return is another way of saying the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. The Palestinians have not budged an inch in their positions, Israel has moved a lot. You tell me who is being more accomodating? Edited by bluke April 19, 2004, 01:13:55 PM EDT Expand All History

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