US Customs: new and improved

4/5/04 3:07:26 PM

Unfortunately,

It appears they did their jobs.

And, also unfortunately, it appears they had not been doing so previously.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,156

by mmoffitt

4/5/04 5:52:26 PM

Yes, by God, let's make sure we're all properly stamped.

Maybe we could all start sewing different colored patches on the outside of our clothes. You know something that could be used to easily identify us. Like a Star means "believes in freedom - not to be trusted", etc.

bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

Post #150,162

by boxley

4/5/04 5:59:27 PM

and let the riff raff sozialist authors in?

wouldnt the islamicides object to travelling in such company?
thanx,
bill

"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #150,176

by drewk

4/5/04 7:34:30 PM

This may not be for you, but ...

How many times has someone bitched about the laxity of the H1B visa program? Here is someone who was clearly entering under conditions that would seem to require one, and now people are upset at it being enforced.

Granted, there is a difference between a "typical" H1B, which supposes a lack of qualified local talent; and this case, where it was the specific individual that was required. But is there an exception in the law for that?

Given that I prefer enforcement of existing law to passing ever more draconian laws (which will then also be selectively enfoced), if the law as written says that someone coming here to earn money needs an H1B visa then this author should have had one.

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #150,182

4/5/04 8:25:39 PM

I hadn't looked at it that way

drewk:

if the law as written says that someone coming here to earn money needs an H1B visa then this author should have had one.

I confess that I never gave a thought to the scores of American novelists this pommy bastard is displacing on the so-called "lecture circuit." That hall could have been filled instead with fans of, ah, John Grisham, or...uh, Danielle Steele, or maybe some dude who does serious littrachur, like, you know, whatsisname, the DaVinci Code guy. Instead, this McEwan character snags the swag, further worsening our already dire trade deficit. Come to that, maybe we need to put some limits on the number of foreign-authored novels we allow to be published here—at the very least, any non-citizen author with books in print stateside should be required to have an H1B before entry, in case any of his work earns royalties for him during his stay. We can't be too careful.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #150,184

by drewk

4/5/04 8:52:28 PM

[sigh] I knew the disclaimer wouldn't matter

You know, the part where I said:

Granted, there is a difference between a "typical" H1B, which supposes a lack of qualified local talent; and this case, where it was the specific individual that was required.

And did you also read my explanation for why I still think it's a good idea to enforce the laws as written? That was the next paragraph:

Given that I prefer enforcement of existing law to passing ever more draconian laws (which will then also be selectively enfoced) ...

I'll spell it out, since you either didn't get it or chose to miss it:

We already have laws which, if enforced, may have prevented some of the 9/11 hijackers from being herre.
Instead of promising to enforce the laws already on the books, our government has decided to pass a whole new raft of invasive laws that would not have had any effect even had they been in place and enforced.
If we're going to start enforcing existing laws, we have to enforce them as written, otherwise they're meaningless.
If the visa laws say that anyone coming here to work is supposed to have an H1B, and there is no exception in the law for individual authors/journalists, then this should be standard practice for anyone coming to lecture here.

If the law had not been enforced in the past, and now is being enforced, then the behavior of the border guards was exactly appropriate. And after contacting people with the pull to get the visa through quickly, he was let in. And the next time he comes he'll apply for the visa sooner. What's the problem?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #150,185

by boxley

4/5/04 9:23:37 PM

your as bad as me I wont drink california wines either

but for books there is a few authors out there.
literature
Try American Gods [link|http://www.neilgaiman.com/about/bio.asp|http://www.neilgaiman.com/about/bio.asp]
Tietam Brown excerpt at [link|http://www.wnyc.org/books/17964|http://www.wnyc.org/books/17964]

Craftsmen
James Lee Burke White Doves at Morning
Peter Bowen Thunder Horse
Andrew Vache Blossom

have you tried any of the above?
thanx,
bill

Post #150,277

by scoenye

4/6/04 1:20:35 PM

This does NOT involve H1-B visas, but the B-1

A different beast entirely. It is a short-term visa for those coming to do business in the US. B-1 holders are either self-employed abroad (as in this case), or work for foreign companies doing business in the US.

Post #150,278

by drewk

4/6/04 1:28:08 PM

Thanks, missed that. Does it change my point though?

===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.

Post #150,287

by scoenye

4/6/04 3:17:52 PM

No contest to the law enforcement bit

The visa waiver program very cleary prohibits what he intended to do, so this was entirely his own fault and immigration was entirely correct.

But given the flammable nature of any post that mentions H1-B around here I thought it important to point out those were not involved. Plus, as we're usually fairly quick to lambaste others (as in "the world beyond Iwethey) for factual errors...

Post #150,377

by jake123

4/6/04 11:37:21 PM

There are many more work type visas than H1B

For example, if I were to end up working in the US, it probably wouldn't be under H1B.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #150,221

4/6/04 8:15:32 AM

Where's the like-kind...

...smart-ass response below to the guy saying the exact same thing? albeit with more words.

You'ld have been screaming bloody murder about "this administrations failures" had it been, say, an author lecturing about border security being let through without the proper paperwork and arriving saying "they didn't enforce the laws".

Instead, its some fu-fu intellectual type who got his feathers ruffled...RIGHTLY. (Actually, haven't read McEwen so I don't know...but it sounded good ;-))

I'll save the red patch just for you :-)

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,556

by mmoffitt

4/8/04 4:38:10 PM

I had to look twice.

You'ld have been screaming bloody murder about "this administrations failures" had it been, say, an author lecturing about border security being let through without the proper paperwork and arriving saying "they didn't enforce the laws".

I saw the ;-) just before I went nuke.

Post #150,205

4/6/04 2:02:44 AM

Damn straight.

Us Brits are not to be trusted. We're firmly in the "shifty foreigner" camp now.

A nasty situation has been avoided - what if McEwan had been planning on developing Novels of Mass Destruction?

I, for one, welcome our new Soviet^WAmerican masters.

Post #150,210

by Ashton

4/6/04 2:54:38 AM

Driving on the Left - dead giveaway.

Post #150,220

by Meerkat

4/6/04 7:54:00 AM

Oi! :-)

John. Busy lad.

Post #150,222

by boxley

4/6/04 8:27:46 AM

/s/f/t :-) also larn yersel football heathen

Post #150,257

4/6/04 11:55:44 AM

I already know football, pagan.

Game with ball, played with the FEET.

Post #150,228

4/6/04 8:45:15 AM

Trust noone.

Thats their job.

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3581687.stm|8 passport carrying brits arrested and half a metric ton of ammonium nitrate confiscated.]

You were saying?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,244

4/6/04 10:09:19 AM

Their job

I've worked with "them" since shortly after you learned long division, I wot, and while many, many customs folk over the years have impressed me with their professionalism (which is seldom encouraged, usually ignored and occasionally punished by their masters) there's also a certain hard core of ignorant, officious, narrow sensibilities who revel in the inflexible exercise of the powers their offices bestow upon them—the worst sort of small-town cop mindset—and it was this side that was delectably on display when the question of whether McEwan was in the habit of writing fiction or nonfiction novels was posed.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #150,249

4/6/04 10:52:53 AM

Does this, then,

mean you have capitulated that they acted correctly in stopping the man...but instead only showed their lack of knowledge of the arts by asking stupid questions?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,284

4/6/04 2:34:36 PM

I'll respond to this piece of silliness here

...there's also a certain hard core of ignorant, officious, narrow sensibilities who revel in the inflexible exercise of the powers their offices bestow upon them\ufffdthe worst sort of small-town cop mindset\ufffdand it was this side that was delectably on display when the question of whether McEwan was in the habit of writing fiction or nonfiction novels was posed.

The idea that it is somehow heinous for him to get asked if he writes fiction or nonfiction keeps on coming up.

That is just plain stupid. If I was the border guard in question and I was dealing with McEwan, I would have had to ask the same question. Because I don't actually care about fiction, and so I've never heard of McEwan until this article.

All that that question means is that someone talked to McEwan for a while, and McEwan is not as famous as he deluded himself into thinking that he was. The article also attempts to demonstrate that he is famous and should be treated with fame. But, all of the pompous posturing notwithstanding, he isn't all that famous. Walking down the street, the average person can't be expected to have heard of him, or to recognize him. Expecting a random border guard to have heard of him is therefore unreasonable. No matter how many awards he has, or highly placed fans are willing to vouch for him.

The fact that he would expect that doesn't speak well for him. The impression he leaves is that he thinks he is famous, and therefore the world must conform its rules and its treatment of him to that fact. Which speaks volumes about the size of his ego, and leaves me with no desire to ever deal with the overprivileged, pompous fool.

Hopefully he has learned his lesson. If you want to do business in a country, and you want to make it legitimate, you don't go there on a tourist visa. If you want to make it under the table, you have to do it all the way and not tell them that the trip is for business. But if you want to get paid and are being above board, then you need the appropriate visa. Whether you are talking about the USA, UK, or any other country.

Regards,
Ben

To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]

Post #150,302

4/6/04 4:57:01 PM

silly is as silly does

ben_tilly:

The idea that it is somehow heinous for him to get asked if he writes fiction or nonfiction keeps on coming up.

"Heinous" was your term, and the question framed to McEwan (who is quite well-known to those who follow such remnants of English language "literature" as the market has suffered to endure to our wicked day—an admittedly smallish class from whom b_t openly disassociates himself) was (emphasis added, since the word apparently did not register first time out) "What kind of novels do you write: fiction or nonfiction?"

Although Truman Capote attempted to get the notion of the "nonfiction novel" accepted a generation ago, it never really caught on, and so for the inspector to put it the way he did would be akin to...oh, I don't know, perhaps to asking McEwan whether his laptop computer used integrated circuits or vacuum tubes. Particularly in view of my long professional association with this crew, it struck me as delightfully droll and all too characteristic of a certain subset of the class. But I speak here as an old English major, and I can certainly appreciate that the ungrasped distinction wouldn't resonate with one who proclaims his own indifference to it. As to b_t's ardent hope that he will not be obliged "to ever deal with [McEwan]," I can of course make no promises, but I do think the likelihood remote.

reassuringly,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #150,309

by Another Scott

4/6/04 5:36:49 PM

"Both"

...so for the inspector to put it the way he did would be akin to...oh, I don't know, perhaps to asking McEwan whether his laptop computer used integrated circuits or vacuum tubes.

And, of course, he should answer "both" if such a question is posed to him. After all, the display does use a cold-cathode vacuum tube to generate the light in the display, AKA a fluorescent bulb.

HTH.

>:-)

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who is surprised you didn't recall [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=137120|this] thread. :-)

Post #150,310

by Ashton

4/6/04 5:47:56 PM

Should the novel aspect fail risibility tests amidst pursang

triple-distilled logic, perhaps an equivalent level of casuistry might be -

So then, how do I know your Leenux 'install' ain't disaffected by that Nimda worm-thing?

Jes tryna be helpful

Then there was the Mexican customs guy a askin moi (on our answering that we were headed way South, etc.) "Zapotecs, eh?"
..least they knows their own history in these backward countries, maybe a few writers too. Customs guys, even! :-\ufffd

Post #150,334

4/6/04 7:11:52 PM

And this makes you feel superior?

I did miss the word "novel". I also admit that I am aware that novels are typically fictional in nature.

However I would not be disappointed by a guard who didn't know that. I am more disappointed that a purportedly educated person fails to understand that there is a difference between business and pleasure, and a tourist visa is not sufficient if you're going to be paid for your trip.

I'm even more disappointed that in reporting on the story, the fact that the mistake was the novelist's was buried so deeply. The reader is supposed to be outraged that such an eminent person would be held up by bureaucracy. But that is the nature of a bureaucracy. If you get the wrong visa, you get inconvenienced at the border. It happens to me, and it happens to famous people as well. (Unless you are so famous, as this person is not, to have someone else take care of the arrangements.)

Well no, I'm not actually disappointed that the reporter would do that. I have been often enough disappointed by reporters that no expectations were violated. But when I was younger and less cynical, I would have been disappointed.

As for your obvious pride in being a follower of literature, you are aware that literature has never really been that popular? In fact in many periods, literature has deliberately gone out of its way to be unpopular as a way of distinguishing the elite who follow it from the "common" masses! (This isn't just literature. The same thing happens in the music world as well.) Perhaps this age is worse than most, but I know of no evidence to that effect. Furthermore I've always been happy to let people who wish to isolate themselves in their own elite club stew in isolation.

So yes, you belong to a club that you consider elite. You are free to consider me as big a Philistine as you want. If you care to believe that I'm an uninteresting, uncurious bore without a spark of wit, that is your privilege. Our mattering maps could well differ sufficiently sharply that you may never have cause to reconsider that opinion.

If that is so, then I wish you the pleasure of your own company. It is far greater than any pleasure that you might get from mine.

Cheers,
Ben

Post #150,342

by Ashton

4/6/04 9:09:57 PM

Let us now braise famous men

Pshaw, Ben - psychs call that 'projection', but what do they know.

And what you so casually dub 'elite' is often confused with merely an appreciation for the subtle over the crass. Etc. Or had you something else in mind?

Imputing darker and divisive mindsets in this fashion is a bit surprising in one who evidently also relishes the subtle - unless you reserve that deliciousness just for Perlmutters (?) Are they also the Scripting Elite? ;-)

(As to whether or not litrachur is or is not 'popular' -?- offhand I can't think of a single connection between those concepts. Reading appeals to readers. Is reading 'popular'? Ought it be?)

Confused in Peoria Symphony Hall

Post #150,351

by boxley

4/6/04 9:46:27 PM

One mans literature is another mans asswipe

I find the author okay, but consider many other authors superior. An Icon of the Literati is Norman Mailer, Aside from the Naked and the dead and Armies of the night his writing sux donkeydicks. I force myself every couple of years to read his latest, I always finish books, cant force myself to finish his. Now I am a fan of Dumas Dickens Capote Wheatly Elliot and Sapir among others. Now I think Viega stated clearly that he knows the custom types upclose and personal and got a giggle over the Sgt Friday types dealing with an artist. That is amusing. Much doodoo about nothing.
thanx,
Bill

Post #150,356

4/6/04 10:06:16 PM

I didn't actually call it elite

I said, So yes, you belong to a club that you consider elite. Which doesn't mean that I agree. There are lots of "elites" in this world which are just cliques. I've never liked cliques, and I relish any opportunity to place myself on the outside of any that I can.

I think that that is different than what you had in mind by the word elite. But your proposed definition is one that the ones who claim to be elite would likely agree with.

As for relishing subtle distinctions, you could either assume that I've changed, or assume that I haven't changed and my motivations are not the ones that you might guess. I'd suggest the latter, but it is your choice.

When it comes to serious literature, I mostly avoid the genre because I found long ago that it doesn't much appeal to me. More precisely I found that while it makes an effort to present itself as speaking deep truths about humanity, it mostly speaks to the limitations of the authors' understanding of human nature. I have more reliable ways to entertain myself and others to learn about the world around me.

Other than sometimes quick demonstrations that I do not aspire to a lofty social standing, my selective apathy does not appear to have harmed me. I have, in fact, far more trouble due to my apathy for keeping up with popular culture.

Cheers,
Ben

Post #150,366

by boxley

4/6/04 10:41:42 PM

fapfapfapfap " I have more reliable ways to entertain myself

Post #150,418

4/7/04 12:23:33 PM

4/7/04 2:16:38 PM

Re: And this makes you feel superior?

Why, no. Really, b_t, you're "reading" far too much into this. What you call my "club" is indeed small, measured against, say, the fanbase for professional football (it's been suggested that the American audience for "serious" literature could fit handily into a modern stadium—not, it is to be hoped, in the seats normally unoccupied in the course of a regular season game), but I neither described it nor regard it as "elite"; nor for that matter did did I call you or do I consider you a "Philistine." These are all assumptions you brought to the party. The boxter had no difficulty in identifying the intent of my original post and followups:

stated clearly that he knows the custom types upclose and personal and got a giggle over the Sgt Friday types dealing with an artist.

I don't fault the inspectors, or any average citizen, for not knowing McEwan from McKuen—for my own part I know the former largely from book reviews, having read just one of his novels—whereas I do find their apparent lack of awareness that "novel" is a more specific term than "book" richly comic, and thought to share it with my droogies here. Reasonable men may reasonably disagree on the conduct of our doughty border guards in this instance, but I find ben_tilly's caricature of my motives here moderately offensive.

cordially,

[edit: typo]

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Edited by rcareaga April 7, 2004, 02:16:38 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #150,440

4/7/04 3:27:19 PM

I'm reacting in part to the tone of the article

And in part to the outrage at a fairly innocuous event.

First of all are we agreed that if you're going to a country on a tourist visa, you need to convince the guard that you're a tourist? If you want to convince the guard of anything else, you need to have the appropriate visa. Any experienced traveller should know this.

Now on to laughing at the guard.

It is reasonable for the guard not to know that novels are typically fiction. I've encountered many cases where intelligent, well-educated people have drawn blanks on things that should be common knowledge. (One case that comes to mind involved which continent the Alps are on.) The fact is that it happens, and I've come to react with sympathy, not distain. I've also come to have distaste for people whose first reaction is to make the situation worse by putting down the unfortunate.

Perhaps my attitude is due to awareness of the fact that I'm often in the corresponding position when I draw blanks on things that really are common knowledge, such as current ads or popular TV shows.

What goes around, comes around, and all that.

Ben

Post #150,319

by FuManChu

4/6/04 6:12:03 PM

Well, shoot. Half the people really *are* below average.

To notice this about a specific group of people, and then decry it as somehow insidiously characteristic of that group? Not what I'd call a reasonable conclusion.

Post #150,255

4/6/04 11:54:18 AM

You'll be fingerprinting all the Americans, then?

After all, most crime in America is committed by Americans, and we can't have that, now, can we?

Land of the free, my hairy arse.

Free to watch TV and CONSUME but that's about yer lot.

Post #150,261

by boxley

4/6/04 12:08:20 PM

Most Americans already are finger printed

pee tested and deep body cavity searched, its called prescreening for employment.
thanx,
bill

Post #150,262

4/6/04 12:11:52 PM

If what you say is true...

...then fbog.

Post #150,263

by imric

4/6/04 12:17:51 PM

Aye.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #150,697

by Silverlock

4/9/04 9:42:37 PM

Fingerprinted for driver's license in Georgia.

Not the full ten set you get when you join any armed service or barred guestroom but still a finger print on the license.

-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko

Post #150,266

4/6/04 12:26:03 PM

If they had their way

It might just get there.

Sounds like you believe all citizens and non-citizens should receive equal treatment.

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3078690.stm|Maybe we should have a test then?]

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,270

4/6/04 12:43:51 PM

Your point?

Post #150,275

4/6/04 1:17:11 PM

To annoy you with reality, maybe?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #150,276