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New Re: Just how do you do that?
I posted a link and a rant about how horrible this case was - but I do NOT blame the girls as such. I blame the collectivisation of the family and the prosecutorial steerage of it. Parents do not have enough authority to discipline their own children, and too much of the village is doing the raising.

But the proper course here would be 1) a total, stern rebuke from a public figure of both the police and the DA's office, with a profuse apology to the victim and a determination to review policy 2) a forced public apology from the girls themselves, before their schoolmates and with the victim physically present. The best punishment for a child is to make them feel honest, righteous shame for their behavior. To scare them this way was not only mean-spirited, it was useless - fear only makes for more fear, while shame makes for an adjusted personality. The direction of law enforcement and punishment is organized around fear, when it should be organized around shame. For example - the Japanese have one of the safest, crime-free societies known, because no self-respecting Japanese would subject himself to the crushing shame of bad behavior. Fear of punishment by the state does not work. Shame, the self-punishment of a healthy conscience, does. If kids were raised to feel healthy shame instead of "you're all just wonderful angels!", they'd grow up much better and be much more circumspect about what they do. Then the prisons could go back to being used to lock really bad people away.

As for the victim - he should sue the fucking shit out of everyone in sight in Garden Grove.

-drl
New Authorized!
I blame the collectivisation of the family and the prosecutorial steerage of it. Parents do not have enough authority to discipline their own children, and too much of the village is doing the raising.

Parents aren't taking responsibility. That's the bottom line. I don't know where it comes from but I see it all the time. Parents are disconnected and worse, lack the fortitude to provide punishment. They're pushovers. Teachers get attacked in classrooms, schools attempt discipline, and parents cry foul. There's an entire generation that's got their heads in the sand here.

I think the approach with the handcuffs was possibly a little excessive but not too far out of line considering the magnitude of the offense. Providing public example for their peers was almost certainly a goal as well.

OTOH, I'd like to see these kids lose most entertainment privleges, and sentenced to a year of community service that will expose them to the plight of the homeless as well as prison conditions endured by their victim. Face to face restitution is a powerful deterrent and teaching aid.



The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New I don't think it was excessive at all
They were looking at putting the guy away for the Rest Of His Life, so they could escape a little parental guidance. I don't think they should go to jail, but the leading away in handcuffs and giving them a little taste of what they were willing to condemn this guy to if they'd carried through is not a bad idea. We're not talking about shoplifting candy at the corner store here.

If their parents whine, it means that the parents are losers.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New You really like how Japan works?
You are right that Japan is very strong on using shame as a motivator. The flip side of that is that anyone whose position is seen as shameful becomes an acceptable target.

[link|http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/tell_story.1474.html|http://www.thingsasi...l_story.1474.html]

Is that really the model for how we should treat socially disadvantaged people?

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Re: You really like how Japan works?
I wasn't holding them up as a model society - merely one with low crime. In fact I doubt I'd be comfortable there.

Shame as punishment was common before the Pennsylvania system was implemented. (So, unfortunately, was death. England has something like 200 separate offenses punishable by death in the 18th century. Some were as trivial as theft by taking.)

-drl
     12 yr old girls handcuffed in LA - (deSitter) - (11)
         Not so sure on this one.. - (Ashton)
         Just how do you do that? - (imric) - (5)
             Re: Just how do you do that? - (deSitter) - (4)
                 Authorized! - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                     I don't think it was excessive at all - (jake123)
                 You really like how Japan works? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                     Re: You really like how Japan works? - (deSitter)
         Necessary - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
             And the counter-evidence is so freaking clear - (drewk) - (1)
                 Lying as a sign of linguistic ability.... - (imric)
         Re: 12 yr old girls handcuffed in LA - (qstephens)

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