Post #140,888
2/10/04 5:19:44 AM
2/10/04 5:23:32 AM
|
12 yr old girls handcuffed in LA
[link|http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-girls10feb10,1,3641217.story?coll=la-home-headlines|http://www.latimes.c...la-home-headlines]
Yes, these girls should be made to understand how wrong what they did was. But this is torture. What is a 12-year old girl going to do that requires handcuffing? It's horrible. This is why you keep children away from zealous prosecutors unless there are extraordinary circumstances. You just don't know what to think any more. Normal relations between children and adults do not lead to this.
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Feb. 10, 2004, 05:23:32 AM EST
|
Post #140,891
2/10/04 6:39:58 AM
|
Not so sure on this one..
Yes, patently unnecessary - in the sense of "preventing escape or violent attack on arrestors". But this *crime* was as serious as a physical attack on that person, and it employed innate 'feminine dominance' - a technique also useable by males (but I digress).
IME - by age 12, most possess all the sinister capabilities of the hardened conman, though usually intermixed the vaguely-hateful insouciance of the gelatinous Neoconman. So how Does one bring-Really-Home.. the magnitude of what these perpetrated, in a '04 cynical, desensitized, bizness-scurrilous society ???
These kids have seen their weekly heaped dead burned body movies (from which they doubtless had subliminal tips on honing their small charade). And by 12, had they developed a fledgling conscience at all -- would know quite well, the magnitude of what they were contemplating. Not at 10 (though some would know by then). But by 12. We accelerate natural processes.. menstruation age keeps dropping.
So ... not sure on this call; it's a close one. It would depend on some personal eval of the perp. Cops used to do that. Today? WTF Knows.
|
Post #140,892
2/10/04 6:45:58 AM
|
Just how do you do that?
They sent an innocent man to jail for 8 MONTHS! Have you ever been in jail? Those girls did something WORSE than assault. And for what? To get out of trouble for being LATE?
What would you have the prosecuter do? Give them a stern talking to and a lollipop when they left the prosecutors office?
Were the handcuffs worse than a spanking?
No.
With luck, they won't put the innocent in jail by lying again.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #140,894
2/10/04 7:00:41 AM
|
Re: Just how do you do that?
I posted a link and a rant about how horrible this case was - but I do NOT blame the girls as such. I blame the collectivisation of the family and the prosecutorial steerage of it. Parents do not have enough authority to discipline their own children, and too much of the village is doing the raising.
But the proper course here would be 1) a total, stern rebuke from a public figure of both the police and the DA's office, with a profuse apology to the victim and a determination to review policy 2) a forced public apology from the girls themselves, before their schoolmates and with the victim physically present. The best punishment for a child is to make them feel honest, righteous shame for their behavior. To scare them this way was not only mean-spirited, it was useless - fear only makes for more fear, while shame makes for an adjusted personality. The direction of law enforcement and punishment is organized around fear, when it should be organized around shame. For example - the Japanese have one of the safest, crime-free societies known, because no self-respecting Japanese would subject himself to the crushing shame of bad behavior. Fear of punishment by the state does not work. Shame, the self-punishment of a healthy conscience, does. If kids were raised to feel healthy shame instead of "you're all just wonderful angels!", they'd grow up much better and be much more circumspect about what they do. Then the prisons could go back to being used to lock really bad people away.
As for the victim - he should sue the fucking shit out of everyone in sight in Garden Grove.
-drl
|
Post #140,909
2/10/04 10:22:57 AM
|
Authorized!
I blame the collectivisation of the family and the prosecutorial steerage of it. Parents do not have enough authority to discipline their own children, and too much of the village is doing the raising.
Parents aren't taking responsibility. That's the bottom line. I don't know where it comes from but I see it all the time. Parents are disconnected and worse, lack the fortitude to provide punishment. They're pushovers. Teachers get attacked in classrooms, schools attempt discipline, and parents cry foul. There's an entire generation that's got their heads in the sand here.
I think the approach with the handcuffs was possibly a little excessive but not too far out of line considering the magnitude of the offense. Providing public example for their peers was almost certainly a goal as well.
OTOH, I'd like to see these kids lose most entertainment privleges, and sentenced to a year of community service that will expose them to the plight of the homeless as well as prison conditions endured by their victim. Face to face restitution is a powerful deterrent and teaching aid.
The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
-- Alan Kay
|
Post #140,935
2/10/04 11:48:18 AM
|
I don't think it was excessive at all
They were looking at putting the guy away for the Rest Of His Life, so they could escape a little parental guidance. I don't think they should go to jail, but the leading away in handcuffs and giving them a little taste of what they were willing to condemn this guy to if they'd carried through is not a bad idea. We're not talking about shoplifting candy at the corner store here.
If their parents whine, it means that the parents are losers.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #140,917
2/10/04 10:52:37 AM
|
You really like how Japan works?
You are right that Japan is very strong on using shame as a motivator. The flip side of that is that anyone whose position is seen as shameful becomes an acceptable target.
[link|http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/tell_story.1474.html|http://www.thingsasi...l_story.1474.html]
Is that really the model for how we should treat socially disadvantaged people?
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #140,926
2/10/04 11:16:47 AM
|
Re: You really like how Japan works?
I wasn't holding them up as a model society - merely one with low crime. In fact I doubt I'd be comfortable there.
Shame as punishment was common before the Pennsylvania system was implemented. (So, unfortunately, was death. England has something like 200 separate offenses punishable by death in the 18th century. Some were as trivial as theft by taking.)
-drl
|
Post #140,941
2/10/04 1:05:08 PM
|
Necessary
Supposed something went wrong. Suppose one of the girls tried to run for it and got killed by a passing car. The cops would be roasted over a slow fire for not following procedures. Following procedures to the letter is the only way they could protect themselves, especially when children are involved.
The societal problem is child worship, an unrealistic image of children as pure, innocent and unable to lie or make up stories. Much of this is created by the advertising industry to get parents to buy stuff for their kids and by misguided social workers to further their own interests.
Children, even at 12, are self centered, self serving, manipulative wild animals that lie as a first resort, mske up incredibly detailed stories of things that never happened and don't care a hoot what damage they do to others. It was bad enough in the past, but today they are fed endless tools and suggestions by television. No child should ever be believed without supporting physical evidence.
I speak from personal knowledge - I was one once, and I remember my childhood in clear detail (and I was by no means among the worst or most manipulative). Sometimes I think becoming a parent automatically erases all memories of one's own childhood (probably an evolutionary adaption to keep the little monsters from all being strangled).
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #141,544
2/12/04 10:15:48 PM
|
And the counter-evidence is so freaking clear
The societal problem is child worship, an unrealistic image of children as pure, innocent and unable to lie or make up stories. Take your average 2-year-old. Just barely able to talk. Put him in a room with a cookie jar and tell him not to eat any. Go away for five minutes. Come back in while he's got one in each hand and crumbs all over his face and ask him if he ate any. No, they learn to lie all on their own. Not lying is the thing that has to be taught. ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
|
Post #141,573
2/13/04 6:42:12 AM
|
Lying as a sign of linguistic ability....
I thought the most compelling sign of human-style intellectual ability in Koko (the gorilla who was taught sign language) was when she broke the sink in her environment - and made up an elaborate tale about someone else who came in and did it...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #141,505
2/12/04 6:00:27 PM
|
Re: 12 yr old girls handcuffed in LA
Sorry, but I don't see a problem here. Girls at that age are much more mature than boys. This sort of thing is one reason why I oppose the death penalty.
qts
|
