Riddle me this.

Post #137,067 by mmoffitt 1/22/04 9:39:28 AM Reply	Riddle me this. Cite another US President that used deception as a rationalization for "pre-emptive war". This situation is unique. And its not just American lives I'm talking about. How many innocent Iraqis were killed? Afghanis? (Q: How many Afghanis were on the flights of 9/11?) No sir, this is a depth we have never been to in foreign policy. The lies this pResident told were to justify an otherwise completely unjustifable war. If we are ever to recover the prestige we once had around the world, the first thing we need to do is assure the world that the previous policy of lying to rationalize pre-emptive war has been abandoned. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,072 by boxley 1/22/04 9:49:36 AM Reply	Abe Lincoln same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #137,073 by mmoffitt 1/22/04 9:51:37 AM Reply	And the lie would be????? bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,077 by deSitter 1/22/04 10:13:25 AM Reply	Re: And the lie would be????? That he would not impose desegregation of society or the abolition of slavery on the South - the idea that the overall goal was always the end of slavery, even though this was not the explicitly stated reason. The Yankee creation myth holds that the Emancipation Proclaimation was conceived by Lincoln as a means of transforming the war into a moral crusade after the fact. -drl
Post #137,078 by boxley 1/22/04 10:14:49 AM Reply	that the South was not entitled to secede same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #137,154 by mmoffitt 1/22/04 2:29:08 PM Reply	That's not what I was ever taught. Of course, born in North Carolina and raised in Southern California, my experience may be different from most. I was taught in grade school (and later in college) that the only stated mission was the preservation of the Union - at any and all costs. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,163 by deSitter 1/22/04 2:39:08 PM Reply	Re: That's not what I was ever taught. Yes, and he just happened to wait for the first decisive Yankee strategic victory and for the blockade to sink in to announce the EP (after Antietam, late 1862). However it is known that he had been making drafts for some time. -drl
Post #137,102 by Simon_Jester 1/22/04 11:45:22 AM 1/22/04 11:48:15 AM Reply	Remember the Maine? and I won't touch Vietnam or Korea. (Lots of lies in both) Edited by Simon_Jester Jan. 22, 2004, 11:48:15 AM EST Expand All History
Post #137,106 by mmoffitt 1/22/04 11:56:25 AM Reply	A few Nits. (Aside to Box) First, everyone knows "The first casualty of war is the truth." Second, the Maine was more about Hearst than the President. [link\|http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/remember.html\|See here for example] Third, in Viet Nam and Korea, whatever position you hold, we were not the first to attack. This notion of "pre-emptive" war is strictly a Neocon construction. Aside: Hey box, who fired the first shot? bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,140 by boxley 1/22/04 2:00:40 PM Reply	Alexander Hamilton same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #137,231 by boxley 1/22/04 10:13:10 PM Reply	still waiting if you are thinking the fort sumpter incident that was state property illegally occupied by federal troops disobeying pussy communist rules. thanx, bill same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #137,294 by mmoffitt 1/23/04 9:25:26 AM Reply	Imminent domain dude ;-) bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,299 by deSitter 1/23/04 9:37:06 AM Reply	any minute domain? or did you mean eminent? -drl
Post #137,311 by mmoffitt 1/23/04 10:08:42 AM Reply	AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH. I leave it, sheesh. What a dumb-ass, sheesh. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,318 by Arkadiy 1/23/04 10:25:19 AM Reply	Eminem domain -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #137,323 by boxley 1/23/04 10:39:44 AM Reply	minimum dolman (who really started hostilities) [link\|http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Background/BackgroundForts.html\|http://www.tulane.ed...kgroundForts.html] With public sentiment pressing for action, South Carolina sent commissioners to Washington to negotiate the transfer of the forts to the state, and requested immediate control of Fort Sumter. Like Slemmer, Anderson considered his situation increasingly precarious, indeed untenable if South Carolina occupied Sumter. After nightfall, on the evening of December 26, Anderson moved his small force from Moultrie to the more defensible Sumter. Despite South Carolina's insistence that Anderson's action was a hostile act and must be repudiated, President Buchanan refused to order Anderson to return. South Carolina then proceeded to occupy federal property in Charleston, including the military posts surrounding Sumter. By January 1, only Sumter remained a Union outpost in the midst of secessionist South Carolina. so negotiations were refused and hostile acts taken by the Union. Sounds rather clear cut, the North Started this shit. thanx, bill same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #137,164 by deSitter 1/22/04 2:39:44 PM Reply	How 'bout Vera Cruz? -drl
Post #137,165 by deSitter 1/22/04 2:40:26 PM Reply	"See no evil" before Pearl? -drl
Post #137,186 by mmoffitt 1/22/04 4:42:47 PM Reply	Again - Not Pre-Emptive War. If the conspiracy theorists are right about FDR sacrificing Pearl Harbor to be able to "get into WW II", then you've made my argument for me. For, it was so vile a notion that the US would enter a war *when it had not been attacked* that it couldn't be done until we were attacked. Am I not making this clear? The point is that Dubya went to war with Iraq on the basis that we were "under imminent threat" - NOT that we had been attacked. That makes his lies worse because it is the first time that a sitting president has lied to get us into a pre-emptive war without the thinnest veiled argument that we had been attacked first. We attacked first (and now it should be clear to all) *without provocation.* bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #137,273 by Ashton 1/23/04 5:38:23 AM Reply	Such a simple, clear notion So hard.. to get a 0-RPM reply. Yep: the Neocons were headed there, No Matter What; lied in their teeth about the certainty of attack by Iraq on the US (!) any old coming weekend.. Unless We Act Now!\ufffd. Steadfastly ignored the (now apparent) success of the slow-old UN inspections, in keeping this monster toothless - and still today! maintain the same utter BS (as in the SOTU pabulum as recently as Tues.) And still: that's debatable !? Suuure it is: because this be the land of the tiny-brain folks, where F=MA is debatable, even after the train hits your SUV. Pshaw.
Post #137,275 by deSitter 1/23/04 5:53:14 AM Reply	Re: Again - Not Pre-Emptive War. To show you how twisted American society had become even in 1940, I recently saw a short film in which Miguel de Notredame is invoked quatrain by quatrain to show how the German-Jap oppression was forseen, and the American response required. I sumbit that our current problems are the logical outcome of the radical reconstruction of 1861, when the real Country was sacrificed on the altar of an imagined Nobility of Spirit on both sides - and that the problems will worsen until the Spirit of '76 is found again - meaning, an actually involved citizenry with a vested interest in preserving Liberty - but of course that will never happen, and we are streaking toward an increasingly authoritarian future. The torch has been extinguised little by little by each succeeding generation, and now barely flickers only in a loosely united Europe. One can forsee a climatic war with them, and throw in a strong and opportunistic China in the east. The Irish don't like us any more, and that tells the entire story. -drl
Post #137,284 by hnick 1/23/04 7:45:54 AM Reply	You keep saying the Irish don't like us any more Where did this come from? When did they particularly like us in the first place? Does this mean that the IRA won't be raising funds in the US any more? Color me confused...
Post #137,285 by deSitter 1/23/04 8:03:48 AM Reply	Re: You keep saying the Irish don't like us any more Ireland has benefitted enormously from the EU, and in only 25 or so years has gone from being traditionally poor to having a thriving economy. Thus the modern Irish are more in line with France and Germany than they are with the US. Bush hatred is virulent in Ireland, who mock him mercilessly (you know how they are :). [link\|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/23/uttm/main595275.shtml\|http://www.cbsnews.c.../main595275.shtml] [link\|http://www.geocities.com/irelandvus911/main.htm\|http://www.geocities...ndvus911/main.htm] Although I don't have any information, I would not be surprised if the Irish were ticked at us for not backing their desire for union with Northwest Britain. -drl

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