Post #134,936
1/12/04 1:10:56 AM
1/12/04 1:39:16 AM
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My honest response
Think twice about public displays of validation, either validating someone else, or validating yourself.
Validation is necessary, yes. It is absolutely key. But the only validation that matters in the end is your own self-validation. Which never has to be said. And that can't be given. Either to you, or by you.
Public cheerleading, no matter how well-intentioned, is a poor substitute. And attempting to fill yourself on something that is emotionally unsatisfying leads to gorging behaviour. But still doesn't satisfy. (I know some examples that..well, let's just say that I know some extreme illustrations of the principle that external validation can't make up for a lack of internal validation. Ever.)
Furthermore bystanders can tell that it feels fake. And are likely to dislike it. Speaking personally, when you and Norm get to consoling each other, that is how I react.
A book that touches on this topic (in a different context) is [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805058265/103-3954996-4747866?v=glance|Passionate Marriage]. This is the best relationship book that I know of. (Not that I've put a lot of energy into relationship books...) A key point involves "self-soothing". It is very common to see relationships where one or both members of the couple use the other to prop themselves up emotionally. The result isn't very stable, and the resulting fear blocks the relationship from going anywhere good.
The lesson is more general than marriage, but you can see it very clearly there. A person who can't heal themselves emotionally, can't heal anyone else. And someone who can heal themselves, knows that they can't really heal anyone else.
Cheers,
Ben
UPDATE The word "either" was misplaced...
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Edited by ben_tilly
Jan. 12, 2004, 01:39:16 AM EST
My honest response
Think twice about public displays of validation, either validating someone else, or validating yourself.
Validation is necessary, yes. It is absolutely key. But the only validation that matters in the end is your own self-validation. Which never has to be said. And that can't be given. Either to you, or by you.
Public cheerleading, no matter how well-intentioned, is a poor substitute. And attempting to fill yourself on something that is emotionally unsatisfying leads to gorging behaviour. But still doesn't satisfy. (I know some examples that..well, let's just say that I know some extreme illustrations of the principle that external validation can't make up for a lack of internal validation. Ever.)
Furthermore bystanders can tell that it feels fake. And are likely to dislike it. Speaking personally, when you and Norm get to consoling each other, that is how I react.
A book that touches on this topic (in a different context) is [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805058265/103-3954996-4747866?v=glance|Passionate Marriage]. This is the best relationship book that I know of. (Not that I've put a lot of energy into relationship books...) A key point involves "self-soothing". It is very common to see relationships where one or both members of the couple use the other to prop themselves up emotionally. The result isn't very stable, and the resulting fear blocks the relationship from going anywhere good.
The lesson is more general than marriage, but you can see it very clearly there. A person who can't heal themselves emotionally, can't heal anyone else. And someone who can heal themselves, knows that they can't really heal anyone else either.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #134,937
1/12/04 1:12:31 AM
1/12/04 1:15:20 AM
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Re: My honest response
Okay, so noted...
But is that the answer to what self-centered is? Self-validation?
Thanks Ben.
Nightowl >8#
P.S. And did you mean "can't" in the first part of the last sentence instead of can? I presume that you did, because can doesn't make sense.
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman
"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Edited by Nightowl
Jan. 12, 2004, 01:15:20 AM EST
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Post #134,940
1/12/04 1:28:28 AM
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You reversed the meaning
When self-validation is working well, then you aren't self-centered, because your self is satisfied. If you don't know how to handle your own fears and issues, then attempts to fill your own needs causes a very visible focus that comes across as being self-centered.
On the last sentence, I meant exactly what I said. Nobody can truly heal anyone else. Healthy people, who know from experience what you have to do for yourself, inevitably recognize this. Unhealthy people commonly don't.
Barring chemical intervention (IMHO far too often used), the most that you can do is nudge people towards better habits. At the remove of a text-only interface, it is virtually impossible to even do that.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #134,941
1/12/04 1:30:50 AM
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Re: You reversed the meaning
When self-validation is working well, then you aren't self-centered, because your self is satisfied. If you don't know how to handle your own fears and issues, then attempts to fill your own needs causes a very visible focus that comes across as being self-centered. Ah ok, that makes more sense. On the last sentence, I meant exactly what I said. Nobody can truly heal anyone else. Healthy people, who know from experience what you have to do for yourself, inevitably recognize this. Unhealthy people commonly don't. Okay the statement was: "And someone who can heal themselves, knows that they can't really heal anyone else either." So you meant it to say exactly what it says above, that even if you can heal yourself, you can't heal anyone else? Okay, sorry. I had thought maybe it meant to say, "Someone who can't heal themselves knows that they can't really heal anyone else either." Thanks for explaining it, Ben. Nightowl >8#
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman
"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
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Post #134,942
1/12/04 1:39:49 AM
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Oops, I'd left in the word "either" wrongly
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #134,943
1/12/04 1:46:02 AM
1/12/04 1:58:17 AM
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Huh?
Ben wrote:>>Oops, I'd left in the word "either" wrongly<<
Now I'm more confused than ever. The statement indicates that even if you CAN heal yourself, you still can't heal anyone else, is that the bottom line?
Edit: I reread your edited post, and now I get it. :)
And one more question before I head to bed...
What does the thread about my car have to do with self-centeredness or validation, or does it? All I was asking was informed opinions about what I'd been told.
Thanks
Brenda
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman
"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
Edited by Nightowl
Jan. 12, 2004, 01:58:17 AM EST
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Post #134,973
1/12/04 10:08:06 AM
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NFC about your car discussion
I skipped that thread and so can't comment.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #134,945
1/12/04 1:47:23 AM
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Re: You reversed the meaning (new thread)
Created as new thread #134944 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=134944|Re: You reversed the meaning]
-drl
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