Post #13,486
10/16/01 1:13:20 AM
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Fighting terrorism using Islamic Law
Osama bin Laden and the Taliban want evidence that the unGodly acts of September 11th go against Islamic religion.
Here is a rough draft of a case I am making against suicide and murder, from an Islamic perspective.
Key premise: Muhammad's message was to have faith in One True God. Christians and Jews also believe in One True God. By simple deduction we are all children of the One True God and thus Muhammad finally decided that tolerence for other religions was a good thing. We know from the story of Cain and Abel that God gets extremely upset when one of his children murders another, regardless of the justification. "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. So now you are cursed from the earth".
2nd premise: Muhammad was the final prophet, following the likes of Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Jesus. True Islamic followers must also observe the teachings of these prophets. You can't just pick and choose which prophets you want to follow. Moses was given the laws about murder, stealing, and bearing false witness against one's neighbors. Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, love your enemies and to do good to those that hate you. He also said, "blessed are the peacemakers".
3rd premise: Muhammad became known as a man of wisdom because he showed mercy, compassion and tolerance for the Meccans after negotiating a truce in 628 AD when he returned from Medina. Shouldn't the followers of Muhammad reflect the same compassion and tolerance as their favorite prophet?
4th premise: Muhammad received his first revelations from who? The angel Gabriel who also advised Mary, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of the father David."
5th premise: The Koran is very clear that offensive killing is not just. Period. Those that disobey this law will not find favor with the One True God, regardless of their religious or political justifications, and regardless of their outward piousness.
6th premise: Muslems have always prided themselves with having intelligence and wisdom. They have advanced civilization by developing numerals, paper, medicines, engineering techniques and magnificent poetry. They were smart to learn from other knowledgable civilizations that they became aware of. Now some Islamic extremists want to kill an entire advanced society, a society that shows tolerance for all of God's children living on their soil. Osama bin Laden wants to kill all non-Muslems who set foot on "his" soil, and he does this in God's name.
I thought it was God's soil?
What have I missed? Where have I possibly gone astray?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Post #13,488
10/16/01 1:27:52 AM
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Wild-card.
2nd premise: Muhammad was the final prophet, following the likes of Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Jesus. True Islamic followers must also observe the teachings of these prophets. You can't just pick and choose which prophets you want to follow. Moses was given the laws about murder, stealing, and bearing false witness against one's neighbors. Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, love your enemies and to do good to those that hate you. He also said, "blessed are the peacemakers".
Jesus also refers to himself as the Son of God, but Islam does not. So how do they deal with that? Do they alter His teachings somehow? (Myself, I don't know.) This might be taking us further into what true Islam means than you may have wanted to go.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #13,551
10/16/01 9:16:33 AM
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What I've determined ...
... is that Muhammad was a mortal person with mortal flaws (unlike Jesus). I thought that Muslems merely didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead after three days.
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Post #13,571
10/16/01 11:08:22 AM
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Sort of
Muslims do believe that Mary did not lay with man. But they don't believe that Jesus was the son of god. Rather that he a specially marked human prophet. The most clear cut verse that places Jesus among the mortals that I can see is this: They do blaspheme who say: 'Allah is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help
Theis verse is also interesting for the way it mentions the Trinity by name: O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Jay
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Post #13,623
10/16/01 3:48:25 PM
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Resolving Bible-Koran conflicts
The Bible reflects a religious history that Muslims believe in.
However the Bible is a document that went through considerable editing over time. In fact the New Testament was written from eye-witness accounts at some remove from the actual events, there were multiple versions of the testaments around, and the current document is based on an authorized selection of such. This makes it subject to interpretation not just of what was purportedly said, but whether the words you see have been altered.
Now the Koran was dictated by Mohammed. There is no ambiguity, and no question.
Therefore when the accounts given in the Bible come into conflict with the accounts given by Mohammed of what really happened, all good Muslims believe that Mohammed's account is definitive.
That said, there is a specific resolution of the "son of God" issue. For that resolution in their own words, various links from [link|http://www.submission.org/jesus/|this page] may enlighten.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #13,690
10/16/01 10:00:38 PM
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"The Koran was dictated by Muhammed" Also the book of Mormon
by Joseph Smith, no ambiguity. What I find interesting was the Koran being written by the old testament version of a fleet owner of tractor trailers. He had poetry as well as the spirit of an accountant. makes you look at truck drivers in a new light.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #13,719
10/17/01 2:05:19 AM
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That's a good point.
About the origins of the Koran vs the authorship of The Bible. Thank you.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #14,422
10/21/01 9:24:43 AM
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More Koranic proof that bin Laden is evil
Thanks for the excellent link. Bin Laden has said that the One True God has told him to kill innocent civilians. His own Quran says that no soul bears the burden of another. He is murdering people with souls that are innocent. Just one more obvious proof that Satan has taken control of these terrorist's souls and caused them to brutally disgrace Islam. According to the Quran, these terrorists are now reaping what they have sown. They sowed murder and destruction and they are now losing their power to continue their campaign of hatred.
Quran (The Final Testament) confirms the basic principle in the Old and New Testaments, that a man will reap only what he sows.
"Every soul is responsible only for his/her own work" 53:39
".............no soul benefits except from its own work, and none bears the burden of another......" 6:164
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Post #13,506
10/16/01 2:29:55 AM
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Dream On
Quote - "Kill'em. Kill'em all." -Stonewall Jackson, RE Yankees
PS - is there no limit to your pollyannaism? Aren't you a little embarrassed? Why don't you go over there and hand out yellow smileys to everyone? Can you hold up under torture? No?
God is dead. Long live God.
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Post #13,578
10/16/01 11:32:14 AM
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Yellow smileys!
Oh, man, I just had a flashback to the early 70's. A Unitarian Universalist church. Sandals. Making lanyards. Some guy who looked just like Mr. VanDriesen. They hadn't invented yellow smileys yet, but I'm sure theyd've been plastered all over the place.
Are we are saying... is give me some chants.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #13,568
10/16/01 10:53:25 AM
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Re: Fighting terrorism using Islamic Law
Off the top of my head I can see problems with your second premise, fifth and sixth premise. And I'm left to wonder why you included the fourth at all.
The problem with the second premise you give below is that Muslims believe that Muhammad was sent to correct the misinterpretations of the previous prophets and the mistakes of their followers. This is important because the OT as quoted in the Koran doesn't match the one of Christian Bibles or Jewish Torah. Thus where Muhammad and the previous prophets appear to conflict, they must give way to Muhammad's practice and belief.
The fifth premise you give below has a serious flaw. The Koran isn't nearly as clear cut in this regards as you would like to think. The following quote for instance explains when you can kill for revenge.
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
and I'm sure Bin Laden places great weight in this section.
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
The sixth premise you list has at least one problem. Every civilization, every group of people, and even most individuals have pride in their intelligence and wisdom. That doesn't actually mean that they have any.
Jay
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Post #13,720
10/17/01 4:42:17 AM
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It's all about perspective?
I think that's what you are getting at. I tried to figure out a way to justify suicide and murder from the Islamic perspective but what I think you are telling me was that I was still relying on the Bible for background logic. You, on the other hand, see a vastly different justification based upon Islamic pride in their prophet, ignoring the prior prophets that Islam is supposed to respect and admire.
You think Islamic believers think Muhammad was the wisest of the prophets, even though he couldn't preform miracles and had numerous human shortcomings. I suspect you are right, even if it sounds mildly dis-logical. When pride, prejudice and power come into play, people can justify almost anything, even committing mass murder in the name of Allah.
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Post #13,792
10/17/01 2:39:12 PM
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Partially
I actually thought you where trying to refute terrorism, but yes, your logic was littered with Christian thinking. I don't think a Muslim would ever raise the point about Jesus. A Muslim will refer to Muhammad when possible, but if there isn't a saying by him to use I suspect they would be more likely to appeal to Moses then Jesus.
I suspect the long history of conflict between Muslims and Christians has something to do with this though. The Koran does have a fair amount of space talking about Jesus, but modern Muslims don't refer to it. Jesus is a non-issue to them, unless they want to play up the compatibility between their religion and others.
As for you final point, yes I think most Muslims would consider Muhammad the wisest of the prophets. But from a religious perspective, his most important trait was that he was the last, his word is the final word.
And in case, I would still argue that Islam is a more militant religion then Christianity in general.
Jay
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Post #13,900
10/18/01 12:19:38 AM
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Re: refuting terrorism and Bible ties
Sorry bout that. I was trying to refute terrorism using Islamic laws (but trying to understand murder/revenge from a Islamic extremist justification).
Apparently the radical Islam extremists do not give as much credit to prior Bible Prophets as I thought they would.
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Post #13,626
10/16/01 3:57:04 PM
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The following link may be helpful to you
[link|http://www.habiba.org/islam.html|About Islam].
It says several things about the rules of Jihad. Reading those rules, it seems dubious to me that the bombing of the WTC could reasonably be justfied within the rules of Jihad.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #13,661
10/16/01 6:54:35 PM
10/16/01 7:09:32 PM
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Yes. it has been very informative.
What mildly surprises me is that so many people can interpret the religious texts to fit their personal objectives. (as Jay has made clear above and elsewhere)
It seems like the Islamic extremists are repeating the same mistakes as the Crusaders and the moderate Islamics are remaining silent as innocent believers are being murdered.
I still have incredible faith that good will prevail over evil no matter how many people are murdered by these satanic terrorists.
P.S. I regards to interpreting the scriptures for personal objectives I realized that some here might accuse me of that (and they might be right). I am trying to find scriptures that support a peaceful and compassionate solution to our current problems. I feel that the One True God would prefer that type of solution. Islamic extremists try to find scriptures that support a violent and dis-compassionate solution. I guess we all have free will.
Edited by brettj
Oct. 16, 2001, 07:09:32 PM EDT
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Post #13,692
10/16/01 10:09:47 PM
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Brett, this has squat to do with religion
Osama does this because he can. Most of us, heck all of us are capable of great evil. I know I am. Osama being a born into has had no struggle to work to feed himself and family, he has had a world class(by travelling the world) education and has found solace in a cause, then aggrandizing the cause for his own personable joy. He is a little boy torturing animals, and runs and hides. He has a fantasy world he lives in that unfortunately impacts the real world. Look at the interview with his son. A muslim may not shake your hand but Afhgans are danged friendly people. This cat does not even aknowledge a non Muslim by eye contact! This is fairy tale land, sinbad and the Pirates. Osama is trying to recreate the cult of the old man of the mountain. A sick and insane view of the world that used to make Muslim empires tread in fear. It lasted until the Caliphs mounted a determined effort to eradicate the fortress of the assasins and all his followers. Then the shit stopped. That is what we have to do now. G_D has nothing to do with this, this is sheer wolf and coyote killing to protect the flocks.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #13,721
10/17/01 5:01:05 AM
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Religious terrorist hide behind religion
... when what they really want is power, revenge and control. They hide behind their righteousness as they plot evil and destruction. In so doing, they harm the momentum and reputation of the religion they pretend to support. They tie evil to religion when religion is supposed to bring out the good in people. (to help God's children find peaceful solutions to life's problems)
So in a sense you are right and wrong, just as we are all good and evil. The real question is, which side will we favor when deciding the future of our lives?
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Post #13,722
10/17/01 6:10:43 AM
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It's not about religion!
As Bill said rather succinctly. That is spin. Think mafia, KKK, Hitler Youth, the clinic bombers, or even Rev Foulwell: if he had at his disposal say Suicide Crusaders for Christ -- it isn't Allah against JC: that propaganda is patently about recruiting the impoverished and naive - and especially those raised by parents who would use them as weapons, and say it is for God (and some virgins, later).
No holybook writings have *anything* to do with this war and its tactics: guerilla VS techno-power / 3rd world VS Rich world.
Had 9/11 not happened, we would (as all time previously) remain totally uninterested in the 'faith' or plight of these opponents - they are losers by our standards, too poor to matter: because they cannot do bizness with us. That is our main 'interest' in Any other group or nation. Clear?
All the rest is spin, propaganda for recruiting as many guerilla expendable troops as they can / bucking up our boys n' girls to defend our wealth. Our opponents may settle for merely destroying as much of our wealth as possible; this because: they realize fully that, they are impotent to take it in the usual ways of warfare! Thus - their job is much easier, as is their minimal strength leveraged by three main facets:
1) Via their stealth and anonymity: we must waste huge efforts to find them individually.
2) As it is impossible to 'harden against attack' an open society: their targets are manifold and largely vulnerable.
3) Via exploiting the religion concept to galvanize normal people to commit suicide (for fantasy rewards and evocation of moral fervor) - their access to targets is further magnified.
You will find it easier to keep score and do armchair quarterbacking as the Tee Vee War is rolled out before us all, replacing the daily soaps: if you do not continue to imagine that this has anything at all to do with Truth Beauty and Righteousness (as in: picking the god which will support Your side\ufffd, kick other side in teeth.)
HTH
Ashton
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