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New Re: How about scrap income tax altogether
It has the advantage of being highly visible. Every time you go to the checkout counter, you see you're paying 30% (or whatever) federal sales tax.

But the liberals won't like it, since it would hit the lower classes too hard. (as if they aren't being hit in many ways anyway.)

Still, better that than a VAT; a VAT is almost completely transparent.
Who knows how empty the sky is
In the place of a fallen tower.
Who knows how quiet it is in the home
Where a son has not returned.

-- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
New Re: How about scrap income tax altogether
But the liberals won't like it, since it would hit the lower classes too hard

How's that? The idea from the link I posted exempted food, rent, and medicine. It also menas you pay more if you buy soemthing more expensive. 10% of that Beamer is a lot more than 10% of that Yugo. So even though the tax is evenly applied, it still hits 'the rich' more than 'the poor'
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Doesn't matter
Even if food, medicine, rent is excluded, the liberals will whine about televisions, clothes, stereos, computers, computer games (er, I mean computer educational software), etc. etc.

It doesn't matter. The rich are paying the same percentage, so therefore it must be unfair. That's why we have a graduated income tax, so the rich pay "their fair share".

Tell me that isn't so. Then look at any congressional debate about tax reform.
Who knows how empty the sky is
In the place of a fallen tower.
Who knows how quiet it is in the home
Where a son has not returned.

-- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
New Yeah...
I made the mistake of asking you something when you were just echoing an argument not necessarily your own

I don't quite understand the argument that just because you make more you should pay more other than as a linear relationship to what you make.

I make a lot more than some of my friends and associates, but due to some details in my job and some past history, I'm paying an awful lot of money in debt and some other expenses that are related to the job I do. So in the end my lifestyle is really no different then theirs. Should I be taxed more?

Ironically, I'm trying to work my way into a much lower income simply because the things I really want to do with my life don't pay nearly as well
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Depends on how you look at the numbers...
Hi Jay,

I don't quite understand the argument that just because you make more you should pay more other than as a linear relationship to what you make.

It depends on how you look at the numbers and what you feel the purpose of the taxes are. If, to take the two extremes, you view taxes as a being like a user fee - everyone pays the same amount to supply the same services - then uniform tax rates make sense. If you view taxes as being a way to make society more equitable, by redistributing some income, then "progressive" tax rates make more sense.

The [link|http://www.census.gov/prod/www/statistical-abstract-us.html|Statistical Abstract of the US (PDFs)] is a good source of information about all sorts of numbers about the US.

Table 740 lists "Mean Taxes Paid..." in 1997.

1997 ............ 95,850,000 Households
$13,077 mean taxes paid (Federal Income, State Income, FICA, Property)
24.9% of mean before-tax income.

If everyone was treated equally (ala Thatcher's Poll Tax (IIRC)), then those families that made slightly more than $13,000 a year would obviously be hurt by an equal tax.

Percentage-based taxes have problems with defining what "income" is. What should be excluded? Insurance proceeds? Investment income? Should all income be taxed the same way? What about capital gains?

What deductions and exclusions should be allowed? Children? That means a higher burden on young single people and the elderly. Food? If so, what about resturants? Medicine? What about vitamins and "herbal supplements"? Medical equipment? What about exercise machines and Rec Club memberships? If you say "No exclusions" to keep the system simple and transparent and minimize abuse, there are also problems. The tax rate has to be rather high to supply the multi-trillion dollars the governments need to do their job. People who are currently paying very low effective rates would be hurt unless there were exceptions and exclusions. But someone has to decide what they are and what fits - leaving the system open for potential abuse by the tax law writers.

Table 745 lists "Share of Aggregate Income Received by Each Fifth and Top 5 Percent of Families: 1970 to 1998"

1998 ....... 71,551,000 Families

Bottom Fifth $21,600 cutoff, 4.2% of aggregate income
Next Fifth $37,692 cutoff, 9.9% of aggregate income
Next Fifth $56,020 cutoff, 23.0% of aggregate income
Next Fifth $83,693 cutoff, 47.3% of aggregate income
Top 5% $145,199 cutoff, 20.7% of aggregate income

Many argue the top 5% people having 20.7% of the US family income means that they can afford to pay more (as a percentage) in taxes than those at the bottom of the income scale. They can't be paying their fair share right now, right?

But if you look at Table 549, "Individual Income Tax Returns ..." you might reach a different conclusion.

Individual Income Tax as percent of Adjusted Gross Income
Income 1995 1997
Less than $1,000 . -0.2 -0.3
$1,000-$2,999 .... 1.2 1.5
$3,000-$4,999 .... 1.0 1.1
$5,000-$6,999 .... 1.3 1.5
$7,000-$8,999 .... 2.2 2.0
$9,000-$10,999 . . 3.0 3.1
$11,000-$12,999. . 3.9 3.6
$13,000-$14,999 . . 4.3 4.0
$15,000-$16,999 . . 4.9 4.6
$17,000-$18,999 . . 5.5 4.9
$19,000-$21,999 . . 6.5 5.9
$22,000-$24,999 . . 7.6 7.1
$25,000-$29,999 . . 8.6 8.4
$30,000-$39,999 . . 9.9 9.6
$40,000-$49,999 . 10.7 10.7
$50,000-$74,999 . 12.1 11.9
$75,000-$99,999 . 14.8 14.5
$100,000-$199,999 18.3 17.8
$200,000-$499,999 25.6 24.6
$500,000-$999,999 30.2 29.0
$1,000,000 or more 31.4 28.8

144,000 individual federal tax returns were filed in 1997 with AGI of $1 M or more.

So, it depends on how you look at it. Our federal income tax is already highly "progressive", at least up to the $500 K or so level.

This isn't a simple problem. Nearly every change to the tax law had good and bad effects.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Depends on how you look at the numbers...
It depends on how you look at the numbers and what you feel the purpose of the taxes are. If, to take the two extremes, you view taxes as a being like a user fee - everyone pays the same amount to supply the same services - then uniform tax rates make sense. If you view taxes as being a way to make society more equitable, by redistributing some income, then "progressive" tax rates make more sense.

I obviously see it as the first.

When you got to a restaurant, they don't ask you how much you make and then charge you $3 or $30 for a cheeseburger depending on your answer.

In this case, as in most cases, the government should be blind and the rules should be applied equally to all citizens
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Re: Yeah...
Echoing an argument?

Here's my position. Flat tax. Those below some boundary get negative income tax. Fair for everyone, IMO, though there are many who will howl at the unfairness (?) of it.

National sales tax: OK, I'll take it. I think it's less fair than a flat tax, but I'll take it. Again, every liberal bedwetter is going to howl at the unfairness of it.

There's damned near no fair tax that is going to get through Congress (or for that matter through any state); it's a thought problem more than anything else, IMO.

I'm a "Senior software engineer" so I make a bit, but not bazillions. I suppose I'm upper middle class. Perhaps that biases me against the current tax system. So be it.
Who knows how empty the sky is
In the place of a fallen tower.
Who knows how quiet it is in the home
Where a son has not returned.

-- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
New No.
The system is working much better for the rich than the poor. They should support the system in a proportional manner. The pain level for paying taxes should be uniform from top to bottom.

10% on top of the Yugo is a heck of a lot more painful for the family with a $30,000 income than 10% on top of the Beamer for an exec pulling in $6,000,000 per year who's paying for it with pocket change.

No a national sales tax is a highly regressive tax and is not an acceptable alternative.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Impossible...
The pain level for paying taxes should be uniform from top to bottom.

...because everyone has different pain thresholds

$45K a year for a single mom with four kids and no health care is a *lot* different than $45K a year for a family with one working spouse, one childcare spouse and a job with health care. Same income, but the impact of a %10 income tax is quite a bit different

I make *about* the same as I did several years ago. but back then I had one vehicle and I telecommuted. Now I live in a differentcity than I work; so I need to maintian two vehicles (including insurance) and I spend close to $200 a month on gas. My income has not changed, my pain threshold has changed. My income is also artificially lowererd because I spent 4 months unemployed a few years back and ran up very high credit debts paying mortgage and utilities on credit. I'm still paying those off. So my 'income' in terms of what I can actually use is lower than my 'income' in terms of a paycheck



That's where such plans are doomed to failure. As soon as you start playing games with 'everyone should have the same pain' then it becomes a nightmare of trying to equalize everyone's situation fairly, and the bereaucracy to do that becomes unbearbly heavy
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
     Let's hype the Internet sales tax revenue loss some more - (wharris2) - (56)
         Sales Tax - (jbrabeck) - (55)
             Which is why it's time to scrap the sales tax. - (inthane-chan) - (54)
                 Acceptable if . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (53)
                     Yeah, that's what I was suggesting. - (inthane-chan) - (52)
                         Flat tax, negative income tax - (wharris2) - (51)
                             How about scrap income tax altogether - (Fearless Freep) - (50)
                                 Re: How about scrap income tax altogether - (wharris2) - (8)
                                     Re: How about scrap income tax altogether - (Fearless Freep) - (7)
                                         Doesn't matter - (wharris2) - (4)
                                             Yeah... - (Fearless Freep) - (3)
                                                 Depends on how you look at the numbers... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Re: Depends on how you look at the numbers... - (Fearless Freep)
                                                 Re: Yeah... - (wharris2)
                                         No. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                             Impossible... - (Fearless Freep)
                                 The only way I'd go for this... - (inthane-chan) - (40)
                                     Umm... - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                         Well then... - (inthane-chan)
                                     Don't get yourself in debt... - (admin) - (32)
                                         Yeah, I know there's more to it than that... - (inthane-chan) - (18)
                                             Which net? - (Fearless Freep) - (17)
                                                 Doesn't work for everybody. - (inthane-chan) - (16)
                                                     Re: Doesn't work for everybody. - (Fearless Freep) - (15)
                                                         So how would you fix it? -NT - (inthane-chan) - (14)
                                                             I wouldn't - (Fearless Freep) - (12)
                                                                 You're only looking at the bad. - (addison) - (2)
                                                                     Re: You're only looking at the bad. - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                                                         Re: You're only looking at the bad. - (addison)
                                                                 And life was better a hundred years ago? - (ben_tilly)
                                                                 Wow, how *impressively* wrong you can be! - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                                                     Jerico. - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                     Cackle.. glorp - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                         Belladonna? Uhm... Thanks - I think! :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                                             belladona dilates the pupils (eye-opener) -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                 3 ears and a tail.. - (Ashton)
                                                                                 There's such a thing as being too open-eyed. - (marlowe) - (1)
                                                                                     Actually, I was thinking (and "thank?"ing Ashton for)... - (CRConrad)
                                                             Clarification - (Fearless Freep)
                                         Yup - (Fearless Freep) - (2)
                                             Been there - (tuberculosis)
                                             Escrow companies for contractors. - (inthane-chan)
                                         Re: Don't get yourself in debt... - (jbrabeck) - (9)
                                             Sorry To Hear That - (deSitter) - (8)
                                                 Very Important. - (imric) - (7)
                                                     Thanks - we finally have a diagnosis - (jbrabeck) - (6)
                                                         I'm with you, buddy - (jb4) - (2)
                                                             Please email me direct. - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                                                                 10-4...write you this weekend - (jb4)
                                                         I will. -NT - (imric)
                                                         One more... - (inthane-chan)
                                                         You have my support - (Silverlock)
                                     Re: The only way I'd go for this... - (addison) - (4)
                                         So if you SELL a stock... - (jb4) - (3)
                                             I don't think so. - (addison) - (2)
                                                 Sales tax on used cars - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                     Re: Sales tax on used cars - (addison)

History shows again and again how Nature points out the folly of men.
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