Yo, potato head...

Post #12,264 by screamer 10/8/01 1:34:47 PM Reply	Yo, potato head... As far as the WTC, I would agree that we are stupid and lazy, but... How could any rational sentient feeling human being ever consider in their wildest science fiction nightmare that commercial jets full of passengers would be used as bombs? I mean, really. I do understand a little bit about intelligence gathering as well. But, unless we bug everyone's voice and data communications constantly (ala Predator), and use massively parrallel systems (such as are found in NSA)... Oh, I get it, are you advocating a total abandoning of our concept of privacy, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, etc... Should we only worry about guys that are named Abdul or Mohammed? No gorilla chest here partner. Actually a very informed realist (read Ecclesiastes - "a time for war, a time for peace") who knows the military capabilities of the countries in question. Do you doubt the combined might of the US/UK/FR/CAN/GER/RUSSIA/NATO against the poorest and most backward societies on planet - - - MILITARILY SPEAKING --- ? If that's Gorilla chest beating, then don't mess with that gorilla ;-) Look, this country has it's faults, and I have been very vocal in pointing them out in these fora over the years :-) but their is absofuckinglutely nothing you can say that would imply or connote or suggest or that in any way implicates the WTC happened because of anything we did or didn't do. That is intellectual dishonesty. When trying to rationalize an event like this, I guess it's natural to try to blame someone... If I may, Charlie Manson got it in his head that the rich Hollywood elite were the cause of etc... They deserved to die! You may have to substitute the Beatles for Allah in this analogy, but bear with me. The Hollywood elite must have known they would be resented - that nutcases like Mansion were lurking around every bush all the time... They must have had security cameras/bodyguards/etc... So when Manson sent his buddies in to do his dirty work (ala the suicide freaks that were happy to leave the miserable "life" they knew in the Middle East), LaBianca and Tate should have been prepared for what was to come (I mean, it was their fault, right?) And of course, OBL and Manson didn't actually "do" anything... Am I missing something in this analogy? How about our difference of opinion? Now, back to my main point, I don't give a damn what OBL or Charlie Manson thinks about anything. How they "justify it", etc... Who cares? The last comment about the Jews bears serious discussion as the Christian and Muslim attitudes towards them gave us wonderful history such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, etc... Just one clarification to your statement. I know you are a Christian... Are you saying that the Jews selected themselves to be God's chosen people? That Christ and Mathew and all the other old Jews that you hear about every Sunday selected themselves? Just curious? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,266 by boxley 10/8/01 1:39:43 PM Reply	Uh oh, Chrlie and OBL? Damn I wouldnt of convicted charlie on tate. La bianca was a different story since he went in himself to tie them up. I would have locked his but up on a 3 strikes clause in 68 or as the crime was labeled back then habitual criminal, automatic life. Since OBL doesnt liv here, is not a US citizen etc, we legally should be able to shoot him on sight since he is not a political leader. thanx, bill What is a user? You mean userid isnt the same as uid?, gid? whats that? I dont understand "ask the requestor to send a non formal email request for ftp access? whaddya mean dean? Halp Iam drowning in Bovine Fecal Matter!!!! Bill
Post #12,316 by screamer 10/8/01 5:32:20 PM Reply	LOL!!! By the way, it's a decent comparison? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,272 by deSitter 10/8/01 1:57:35 PM Reply	Well, I Considered It ..many times. It was obvious. The people at the helm here wanted to build an antimissle defense just a few months ago. It was pointed out that a nuke in a Cessna or a truck would fly well under such a defense. Stupid. More stupidity - apparently some people think we can go into Israel mode security-wise. The only problem with that - we have thousands of times more area to defend and hundreds of good-sized cities with poor defense resources. Not likely unless we devolve into a police state - which seems to be where we are headed. The people who run the show are plain bubba stupid. The current situation is the logical end result of living the lie of political correctness. Immediate actions that should have been commenced on Sept 12 1) Revocation of ALL temporary visas and ejection of their holders, no exceptions 2) Strict racial profiling of all airline passengers 3) Carte-blanche for the CIA and NSA to get down and dirty 4) Ultimatums to Middle East governments that further religious infighting will not be tolerated 5) Enter into a close defensive arrangement with China and Russia as equal partners to enforce civility in the world at gun and bomb-point. 6) Planning for a campaign to collect all nukes from unstable countries, including India and Pakistan if necessary. The most important thing is cooperation with China and Russia. It's ugly but necessary. This means voluntarily renouncing the meaningless position of the world's only "superpower". Of course almost none of this happened or will happen.
Post #12,274 by bepatient 10/8/01 2:07:17 PM Reply	So you want >them< to win. Its our freedom their after. And you want to hand it to them. Kick out all them goddamned foreigners. Anybody named Abdullah is not allowed to fly. CIA and NSA can have absolute authority to monitor every citizen without just cause or even slight suspicion. I'm glas you're not in charge...unfortunately there's senior leadership that seems to think that civil liberties are a "threat to national security"...just like you do. damned sad, if you ask me. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #12,277 by deSitter 10/8/01 2:22:47 PM Reply	You Missed It Completely I want OUR liberties defended with great vigor. I want to deny them THEIR liberties. I want the CIA and NSA to have the legal authority to interdict assholes all over the globe without even having to think twice. They can't get our freedom unless we hand it to them. Turning ourselves into a police state, where a little old matron with a cooler of Doc Otis has to be searched before entering a stadium, is not my idea of freedom. We have one huge advantage - we are thousands of miles from most of the world assholes. So we eject everyone who can't trace his family to George Washington or Sacajaweia. Case closed, no more worries about mujahedeen on our airplanes. Harsh but necessary. The ejectees are welcome to return to their home states and set up friendly, civilized governments. "No one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by make the other poor bastard die for his." - GS Patton
Post #12,289 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 3:32:57 PM Reply	Why is America strong? My family came here as immigrants 7 years ago. Yesterday my Mom asked "Why does America think she has enough money to fight this war, and feed Afghanistan, and stand guard in Kosovo, and over Iraq and so on?" And my answer was: because I, and millions of others all came _here_ to earn our living. Kill immigration - kill America.
Post #12,290 by deSitter 10/8/01 3:38:28 PM Reply	Too Bad Sad but true. You don't see grease monkeys and carpet cleaners from Asbury Park flying jetliners into buildings. After things settle down, we can re-evaluate immigration issues. If your guests are burning holes in your carpet, send them home.
Post #12,304 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 4:46:21 PM Reply	Asbury Park? Who are those people from Asbury Park? And, after things settle down, they settle down for good. People who used to bring their hands here will go elsewhere or stay where they are. USA will become just another Old World in a new place.
Post #12,297 by gtall 10/8/01 4:17:34 PM Reply	Re: Well, I Considered It It takes some pretty good distortion to misunderstand a missile defense as being no good because it doesn't stop planes or trucks. A missile defense is just that, a missile defense...but maybe you like having Los Angles targeted by N. Korea, they're a bunch of fun loving guys. Other kinds of delivery we'll work on. You seem to have no shortage of blockades you want to throw up around the U.S. to keep people out. So your blockades won't do squat about missiles, we should have no blockades, right? I don't think you understand Israel, they have their own internal conflict between the religious right and secular left. You see it in their elections. When they feel threatened, the religious right gets the nod. When they think a peace is possible, they move left. Let's not forget the 4 wars the Arabs started to push Israel into the sea. It isn't like Israel is not surrounded by a bunch of people who want to see every last Israeli dead. "1) Revocation of ALL temporary visas and ejection of their holders, no exceptions" So, we won't allow any diplomats, foreign businessmen, etc. in the U.S. And what makes you think if we do this the rest of the world will decide they don't want any of us out there? "2) Strict racial profiling of all airline passengers" Brilliant, how about Armenians...their pretty dark looking, definitely not American. They should be watched too? How about Indians? They look like Pakistanis to us. Gotta watch them too? Come to think of it, Italians and Greeks are pretty swarthy, they could be travelling under fake Iraqi passports. "3) Carte-blanche for the CIA and NSA to get down and dirty" So, if they decide to bump off a few Americans that are getting in the way, this is okay? How about if we let them bump off a few Indians, do we get to feel bad if India allows their counterterrorism experts to knock off a few Americans in this country? "4) Ultimatums to Middle East governments that further religious infighting will not be tolerated" Yup, that's going to work. "Look youse guys, stop fighting and let yer women vote or...or...well, we think of something hideous to do to you". "5) Enter into a close defensive arrangement with China and Russia as equal partners to enforce civility in the world at gun and bomb-point." And China sees itself as an up and coming power, what makes you think they give a flying rat's ass if we get our tail caught in a crack. What's in it for them? Does this mean we get to help the Russkies mop up Chechnya? "6) Planning for a campaign to collect all nukes from unstable countries, including India and Pakistan if necessary." Gee, what a wonderful idea, how come we didn't think of this before. We'll ask these countries to give us their nukes. Lemme guess, they'll ask for a fair swap, we'll take theirs and they'll take ours. There's only, what, 140 Million Pakistanis, do we get to kill them all so we can take their nukes? And then kill them again when they make more. There's roughly a billion Indians. Let's say only a million get pissed off enough to try to stop us. Boy, we'll show them poor bastards that a million dead Indians won't stop us. Gerard Allwein
Post #12,318 by screamer 10/8/01 5:37:47 PM Reply	Heads... You win... I hate getting nasty with ya. It's like fighting my own brother ;-) (which I've been known to do...) . You have no argument with me on any of the points you just made - I agree totally. I still have to disagree about the level of competency at the top though. I just heard that Bush Sr. is extremely involved in this - the strategy, the planning, the implementation... He ain't pretty but he's about the best we got (in the political realm that is) when it comes to getting down and dirty. Of course this is just my opinion and opinions are like.... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,324 by screamer 10/8/01 6:01:36 PM Reply	Tails, I lose... In regards to the last post, I should add that I agree with you totally the day after the WTC thing happened. Now that I have had time to really think things through (ie, beyond my anger and emotions), I've changed my mind many times... and as Arkadij has stated, we are all immigrants here except for the native Americans (who most probably are Asians that came across the Aleutian Islands...). If you are a Muslim or Christian, we all came from Adam and Eve. If we are ever to REALLY live in peace, we will need to remember this at all times. We are all brothers and sisters on the planet Earth. We of the genus homo species sapien. Including would be terrorists. Two days after this event started, I posted a message in the religious forum asking if there was any place for a religion like the Taliban practice in the modern world. I also posted that I don't know if we'll be able to discriminate between Muslims and Muslim fanatics. It is quite clear that the events of the past few weeks demonstrate that we are capable. Bush is dropping food to the oppressed people at the same time he is dropping bombs on the assholes. I can't say that I am happy about the bombs thing, but it is understandable given the circumstances. And the food thing is a pragmatic war tactic, but I also believe it goes deeper than just trying to convert some very confused people by filling their bellies. I am hopeful that now that the "civilized world" is being allowed to clean house, that many of the injustices that exist in countries that we can't even point out on a map (where our business interests run - See the continent of Africa for example), will be put on the world's radar screen and all the Idi Ahmins and Pohl Potts ad nauseum will be told to quit hurting our fellow human beings... It's a nice dream. And maybe then, just then, people won't have to leave their homelands in search of a "better life". They can find it right where they are. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"

Welcome to IWETHEY!