Post #12,216
10/8/01 10:47:33 AM
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A couple of points.
"Bin Laden may even see himself as a new Mohammad or Saladin. Saddam Hussien almost filled the role but got squashed. Now it is time to sqash OBL & the other similarly minded leaders who see this as a west vs Muslim war."
According to the to the Sunni Islamic faith, Muhammad was the last prophet, period. Abraham was first (plus he was Muslem). Moses, Jesus and others were also OK but after Muhammad, nada. The Shiites believe there were prophets after Muhammad.
"Again I remind you that you calling the Taliban evil oppressors of Afghanistan is just your Christian opinion voiced from the security of a modern nation with enormous economic & military power. It ignores what others did & might do."
That may be true but if you look at the track record of the Taliban over the past 9 years, it is ugly and brutal. No real change from the past 20 years or so but still it's ugly. When do you suggest things will improve for the Afghan people? When all Americans are killed in a glorious Jihad?
Maybe the Taiban are really a loving and kind government and I'm just biased. That does not suggest that ALL the Taliban are wicked and evil but the ones that aren't are not calling the shots, so to speak.
Lastly, you are calling it my "Christian" opinion. I see it as my human and compassionate opinion. I have no problem with the Islam religion and in fact I think it teaches peace and wisdom just like most other religions. But if you insist on calling me a Christian, I can live with that. I just wish I was a more perfect one. I'll keep trying.
Peace.
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Post #12,225
10/8/01 11:25:47 AM
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Re: A couple of points.
The taliban actually brought stability but had the baggage of Bin Laden who was a founder of the Taliban movement. Yes they can be criticised for some of their civillian actions but all in all they were better rulers than the mad mob before them - those people commited some awful mayhem & murder before being pushed out.
Granted the Taliban are mostly Pashtun & have a lot of support form imports (arabs).
I am only warning against seeing them in black and white terms.
The bad side of them (exporting terrorism) has got them in deep sh**
Cheers
Doug
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Post #12,296
10/8/01 4:10:05 PM
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TaliBAM
>> The taliban actually brought stability but had the baggage of Bin Laden who was a founder of the Taliban movement. Yes they can be criticised for some of their civillian actions but all in all they were better rulers than the mad mob before them - those people commited some awful mayhem & murder before being pushed out. <<
From what I read, the Taliban have brought back much of the brutality that they forced out. After they gained power, it went to their head(s) and they got carried away.
IOW, they used some niceness to gain power, but then that niceness faded.
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #12,384
10/9/01 2:58:15 AM
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Re: Taliblame
That just doesn't stack up but it is a nice smug western view of them.
Afghanistan is now and became a hell hole because of the componding effect of drought and previous warfare & tribalism.
Consider the Iranians, today Washington is talking to them & is ignoring many nasty deeds of terror suposedly carried out by them in their early days. The Lockerbie bombing was most likely at their instigation as payback for the civilian jetliner downed by that US a/c in the Gulf, that no one appologised for. They took over the Shah's secret police & kept them working. They began assasinations abroad, etc: etc: etc:.
The Taliban's real crime was and is training terrorists for export.
Calling them evil for any other reason is smug cultural arrogance on our part. Again I come back to the point that the country was blasted back to just after the stone age & has been hit by a massive long lasting drought.
Doug M
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Post #12,406
10/9/01 8:40:17 AM
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Absolute Bull
Any organization that has bands of thugs patroling communities and beats to death anyone committing a minor infraction of "Islamic laws" (which are actually tribal customs) and are rewarded for inventing new methods of cruelty is evil from a human perspective.
Any group that goes through museums and destroys anything there they don't like is mankind of his history and is committing crimes agains humanity.
No, the Taliban is evil by any measure, and should be destroyed to the last participant.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,418
10/9/01 11:06:17 AM
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Re: Absolute Bull - so you say
I would argue that the Taliban is not as bad as portrayed in the west.
You are sucking in western propaganda as much as anyone.
I don't disagree that some of their ideas are odd.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #12,419
10/9/01 11:10:09 AM
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That might depend...
I would argue that the Taliban is not as bad as portrayed in the west.
On your sex, and how many family members have been killed by the Taliban.
Addison
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Post #12,531
10/9/01 8:04:26 PM
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Re: First to cast stones
Lets have a party, we can start by having fun looking at the covert behaviour of a large western country that for decades has said one thing publicly whilst its intelligence arm was killing & plotting murder & mayhem that transformed nations, behind the scenes. I am not saying that I wouldn'd do same in the shoes of a president but it does seem that there is a blidness by some in looking at the behaviour of others esp when both sets of deeds are filtered through propaganda machines.
Cheers
Doug
Probably time to move on from this pointless thread - I have got the message !
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Post #12,425
10/9/01 11:28:49 AM
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Are you saying then . . .
. . that [link|http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20011001-96150849.htm|this story] is not true?
Seems pretty consistent with other stories I've seen for months, but nobody was looking back then.
They themselves described how they were going through the museums destroying all pre-Islamic artifacts, culminating with blasting the statues out of the cliffs.
No, this is not "just Western propeganda".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,519
10/9/01 7:03:19 PM
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Re: Are you saying then . . .
No !
Destroying pre-islamic culture is an odd practice - not enough to justify a modern military power attacking this country. It is enough to cause concern to observers.
I repeat yet again - the Taliban's real crime is harbouring the notion that they can and should train Islamic militants in urban terrorism and allow it to be exported to countries like USA. The fact that the CIA had a *lot* to do with fostering the skills & creation of the Taliban is a side issue. For this problem they can be justly deat with BUT many people ignore that Iran went through some just as ugly phases in the period after the Shah's overthrow and yet today Washington is attempting to make friends rather than blast them.
This type of irony is one that causes frustration among many mid-eastern people (but is of course no justification for urban terror attacks).
D
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Post #12,547
10/9/01 9:41:26 PM
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You didn't deal with the main point.
The article by a former Taliban enforcer describing his work. Destroying artifacts was a secondary item.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,557
10/9/01 11:01:49 PM
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Re: What point ?
The article (which I had read) describes some of the awful things people do to each other
As I said in another post - 'let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone '
By this I am saying that many regimes incl the US practice nasty deeds against their own and other people to achieve certain ends. Some do it by proxy others directly. You focus on those aspects of Taliban behaviour ignores the commonality of bad practices by particular 'persons' against others. Times are very tough in Afghanistan.
So all you are telling me is that some of the Taliban are accused of crude methods by this former member.
I repeat yet again, The Taliban's biggest crime is training terrorists and exporting it.
D
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Post #12,580
10/10/01 2:29:47 AM
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And I say the Taliban's main crime is . . .
. . that they have institutionalized a whole list of crimes against man (and especially against women) and against humanity, one of which happens to be training and exporting terrorists. None of these are random acts (condemned by the majority as they would be here (and most elsewhere)), they are fully integrated into the sect as part of it's culture.
So times are hard in Afghanistan. Oh how my heart bleeds for the poor Taliban (most of whom seem to be Arabs and Pakistanis who are in Afghanistan by choice).
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,583
10/10/01 3:19:40 AM
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Re: Please humor me on one point ...
What I want to illustrate here is just what can be done to blacken the image of an enemy ...
Do you recall this event before the US congress where Bush was requesting approval to mount his campaign against Hussien's Kuwait invasion ...
In this testimony, a woman who said she worked as a nurse in a hospital in Kuwait city stated how Iraqi troops had entered the hospital and taken all the incubators from the maternity ward & had removed babys & 'thrown' some on the floor while doing so - the woman cried as she gave this testimony & so did many congresspersons & senators & also the public who saw replays of her testimony. This particular bit of evidence was amongst the most damning and emotive ever given to justify the claim that the Iraqis were murderous bastards who deserved what ever came to them.
My question is - do you recall that testimony & do you agree generally with what I am saying about its impact ?
Doug
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Post #12,624
10/10/01 11:27:54 AM
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I remember reading about the story . .
. . and thinking it didn't make sense at the time. Baby incubators? what the hell is this about?
Of course there will be plenty of stuff like this from both sides (we just won't hear the ones from the other side), but in the case of the Taliban, the story I've referenced, while it may be embellished in detail, is pretty consistent with what we've been hearing for well over a year now, and consistent with the Taliban's stated policies.
"Conform or die"
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,747
10/10/01 6:47:54 PM
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Re: The later facts were damning ...
The girl was not a nurse - she was the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat.
The story was fabricated and she was coached by a group of people working with the CIA.
The man who did the coaching and the 'company' he worked for also went to Russia to help plan Yeltsin's re election back when it was believed Yeltsin was going to be creamed by the communists & right wingers (Yeltsin won).
The point about the incubator testimony was that it was pivitol evidence used to sway public opinion. It sure sucked me in at the time.
Now ask yourself - that evidence swayed a nation but was baced on a bare-faced & concocted lie fed to the congress & senate. It was done by the same people who are now in power in the US.
When intelligent people get taken in by such monstrous lies, we can either shrug it off or decide to be far more critical of suspect reports that seem to serve a specific purpose.
That report on the Taliban smacks of this same dirty tricks swaying of public opinion. I give it a 70% - 80% probability of being deliberate misinformation. But only time *may* tell.
Either way - as evidenced by your own opinion, it has achieved its desired effect.
Cheers
Doug Marker
( a - 1st casualty of war - truth
b - who are the acknowleged worlds masters of propaganda & news manipulation)
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Post #12,818
10/10/01 11:23:16 PM
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I am sorry, it has achieved nothing here.
I was quite as convinced of the evil of the Taliban months ago as I am today, and quite as convinced they should be liquidated then as now.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #12,822
10/10/01 11:34:10 PM
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Re: So be it
I know I am not immune to propaganda - but as I get older I do find myself rating certain types of item on a scale of probability for its potential as truth vs blatant propaganda - this is made all the more significant when it gets proven that some of the most emotive propaganda turns out to be fabricated by people associated with ones own govt.
Propaganda doesn't always offend me - I do want to be able to understand what the true intent is. Telling lies to the Senate began back in Roman times :-)
Cheers
Doug
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Post #12,558
10/9/01 11:01:50 PM
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Re: What point ?
The article (which I had read) describes some of the awful things people do to each other
As I said in another post - 'let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone '
By this I am saying that many regimes incl the US practice nasty deeds against their own and other people to achieve certain ends. Some do it by proxy others directly. You focus on those aspects of Taliban behaviour ignores the commonality of bad practices by particular 'persons' against others. Times are very tough in Afghanistan.
So all you are telling me is that some of the Taliban are accused of crude methods by this former member.
I repeat yet again, The Taliban's biggest crime is training terrorists and exporting it.
D
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Post #12,586
10/10/01 4:04:10 AM
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Well, I recall - and an appropriate reminder.
She proved to be a relative of quite 'interested-party' Kuwait muckeymucks IIRC. And the story was false - as later came dribbling out. You might also have thrown in:
Tonkin Gulf - the putative excuse for Johnson to receive carte blanche for the entire Vietnam massive escalation in futility and horror.
Actually I'd side with Andy insofar as - there is a pattern of internal oppression of the defenseless by these robed folk - fully as execrable a factoid as is their also being in the terror-export business. (Though.. cleaning out perpetrators of internal madness is not particularly in our charter: the export part IS)
But we haven't even begun to see the 110 dB audio levels to come - of massive disinformation all around, "national security" coming back to remind of all the events since 1945.
After the *next* planned foray... Who Knows what will be done on all sides. Already one thing is clear: Murica pre-9/11 won't return in our lifetimes. For better and for worse.
Where is William Blake when we *need* him..
Songs of Innocence and of Experience
A.
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Post #12,489
10/9/01 4:43:46 PM
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Yeah, but it's *stable* brutality
With the Taliban, you get reliable murder and mayhem.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
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Post #12,494
10/9/01 4:53:54 PM
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Knock it off, Private !
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