Re: BEYOND SEP 11: Im still trying to figure out if ....

Post #12,171 by dmarker2 10/7/01 10:47:53 PM Reply	Re: BEYOND SEP 11: Im still trying to figure out if .... Bin Laden is merely the 'face' we needed to focus the response on, or if he is just one part of a jigsaw of Islamic militancy. OBL probably makes by far the easiest target because he has publicly stated his fatwa & jihad against US. We need a face to target & perhaps he is it. If OBL gets killed I have no doubt we will come up with the next 'face' (probably Al Wahiri or whatever the egyption's name is). The evidence certainly points to OBL as a key element in the terrorist attacks but there is a good possibility it is even bigger than just el quaeda. It has been nore or less obvious for the past 15 years or so, that there has been a growth of Islamic related militancy in the sense of Islamic fighting groups forming and travelling to battle in areas where Islamic peoples are under siege or percieved to be under siege. The most aggressive input always seems to come from the Sunni muslims. OBL has publicy stated that it is OK to kill Shia muslims in the same way it is to attack US citizens. There are approx 120 million Shia in the world. These Islamic warriors have fought in ... Afghanistan in the 1980 & 90s Algeria in the 1990s righ thru until today Chechenya & the other states in that region Aceh (Indonesia) in the 1980s thru to today Moluccas (Indonesia) in the 1990s thru to today Southern Phillines in 1980s thru until today Bosnia in the 1990s Kosovo in the 1990s Ugyar region of northern China 1990s until today It seems that they see themselves as defenders of their peoples and their faith and that what they are fighting is a just and holy war to protect Islamic peoples against growing western dominance and aggression. Bosnia and Chechenya are two places where we have seen the very ugly side of Islamic peoples fighting genocide at the hands of Christian peoples. Both Serbs and Croatians hate muslims with an intensity I find disturbing. It reminds me of the hate we see toward Jews from many Arabs & Islamic peoples (such as at the recent conference on racism held in Africa). The Serbs & Croats will tell you how the Islamic people suppressed them for centuries & what terrible people they are. A Croat friend of mine once told me he hated the Serbs except when they were killing muslim Bosnians (saved the Croats the trouble). History certainly paints a kind picture of many Islamic empires. The Turks were far more tolerant of Christianity than the revers, despite having siezed Constantinople from Christendom. But back to the theme - I believe we are witnessing some of the extremes of action, by a people who feel besieged & fighting for their survival. OBL wants to paint the US retaliation as Islam vs West. I don't believe we see it that way at all but I am glad I am not Islamic or a Muslim. I also agree with the article linked to a few days back that paints Islam as going backward from its days as the leaders of education & knowledge. Iraq was one of the great centers of learning only as little as 500 years ago. Anyway - I really hope this Afghan program works out well for us & US Cheers - Doug Marker
Post #12,213 by brettj 10/8/01 10:22:44 AM Reply	Osama bin Laden is merely the beginning! You are absolutely correct that there are many other terrorist leaders that will need to be removed from power. The Coalition is merely putting a face on the first phase of this battle. Since bin Laden takes pride in praising these murderous attacks it only seems just that he and his extremists get our highest attention. After he either gives up or leaves this earth, then we will focus on other terrorist networks. It is a world wide effort to clean up these demons and give peace a chance. They want a Holy War of terror, the rest of the world wants world peace. Who do you think is going to win, the 10% or the 90%? P.S. Did you hear that the Palestinians are denouncing bin Laden and that their police broke up some demonstrations? I heard it on CNN about 15 minutes ago but I'm not sure I heard it right. I can hardly believe it.
Post #12,222 by dmarker2 10/8/01 11:15:02 AM Reply	Re: It is what we heard here - Palestinians know ... that US is just too bloody big and powerful to piss off - they screwed up during the Gulf war by allowing overzelous underbrained citizens to yell & celibrate when Iraq went into Kuwait but Palestinians have come to realise along with the rest of us that if the us sneezes the world catches a cold. It is interesting that this got announced - I wonder if this was part of the behind the scenes dealing. I really think that the US has the power & now the maturity & sense of purpose to shock all the sensible players into sorting out their messes. So far it is being handled very well - fingers crossed - Lets hope we hear a few more denunciations PS the news here said that the Palestinians resented OBL justifying his terror campaing by using their problems with Israel. The comments were blunt & most unlike the Palestinians as I know them :-) Cheers Doug M
Post #12,338 by brettj 10/8/01 7:10:44 PM Reply	There was a follow-up. OBL never cared about Palestine ... ... before but now it is part of his propoganda, all of the sudden. I read this to suggest that he is getting desperate to find friends, even if he never used the Palestinians as part of his politiacal agenda before. Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. I'm just surprised that so many nations seem to understand what he is up to in this attempt to start a Holy War against America. America wants to fight terrorism and injustice and Osama and his gang of brain-washed extremists want a World War. Which side is full of hatred? Is hatred a sign of God or the Devil? I appreciate your compliments of our governments response so far. We've made some mistakes in the past (as ALL governments have) but I hold out hope that all nations will work together to make our planet a global village where we can all get along. (without having to kill each other to get our point across.)
Post #12,239 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 12:22:32 PM Reply	Chechnya In 1998 they got everything they ever wanted: de-facto independence with a perspective for referendum in 10 years, their own elected governement, even the oil. Then they decided that it's not enough and attempted to add a neighboring Dagestan to their land. At about the same time, 2 appartment buildings went down in Moscow and (don't remember for sure, but probably Leningrad). NOthing was proven, but the Second Chechen War got under way.
Post #12,341 by dmarker2 10/8/01 7:17:07 PM Reply	Re: Chechnya - Phase I then II I've always believed that Russia wanted a pause to rethink how it would crush the Chechyens & once they had taken that breather they went in to finish the job - but slightly better organised & a little wiser about tactics. I don't believe Russia was going to tolerate an Islamic state so close as Chechenya was a springboard for all the states around it. Cheers Doug
Post #12,376 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 11:54:57 PM Reply	Re: Chechnya - Phase I then II That may be, but Chechens did give a perfect pretext for the second war.

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