We missed?

Post #12,148 by marlowe 10/7/01 5:57:25 PM Reply	We missed? [link\|http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011007/ts/attack_afghan_strikes_alive_dc_1.html\|Taliban says bin Laden is alive] Keep firing till we hit the target... [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,151 by brettj 10/7/01 6:32:03 PM 10/7/01 6:42:33 PM Reply	I don't think he was the target of this mission. This being the first strike and all. We went after anti-aircraft sites, terrorist camps and command centers (from what I've gathered so far). We also dropped aid packages to poor non-militant people in Afghanistan (tomato sauce and beans?). We also dropped radios, apparently. The Taliban took away TV's and radios before September 11th so that the Afghanistan people couldn't find out that the US-led coalition forces wanted to help them get out from under the terror of their Taliban oppressors. The Northern Alliance will probably conduct ground forces to root out many of the terrorists still remaining in Afghanistan (which I doubt bin Laden is still there). I'm hoping we can get humanitarian aid to the Afghanistan people as soon as we have wiped out many of the Taliban command centers and anti-aircraft sites. It will be a great day when their suffering is over and a true Afghanistan government can be installed instead of a terrorist supported government. Edited by brettj Oct. 7, 2001, 06:42:33 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #12,152 by Andrew Grygus 10/7/01 6:52:34 PM Reply	Better he stays alive. It gives us a clearer justification for mopping up his supporters. As to the aid packages, the Taliban should by now be loudly spreading the word they are poisoned as part of an American crusade against all Islam, and should be turned over immediately to the Taliban for safe "disposal" (by distribution to Taliban fighters, of course). [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,171 by dmarker2 10/7/01 10:47:53 PM Reply	Re: BEYOND SEP 11: Im still trying to figure out if .... Bin Laden is merely the 'face' we needed to focus the response on, or if he is just one part of a jigsaw of Islamic militancy. OBL probably makes by far the easiest target because he has publicly stated his fatwa & jihad against US. We need a face to target & perhaps he is it. If OBL gets killed I have no doubt we will come up with the next 'face' (probably Al Wahiri or whatever the egyption's name is). The evidence certainly points to OBL as a key element in the terrorist attacks but there is a good possibility it is even bigger than just el quaeda. It has been nore or less obvious for the past 15 years or so, that there has been a growth of Islamic related militancy in the sense of Islamic fighting groups forming and travelling to battle in areas where Islamic peoples are under siege or percieved to be under siege. The most aggressive input always seems to come from the Sunni muslims. OBL has publicy stated that it is OK to kill Shia muslims in the same way it is to attack US citizens. There are approx 120 million Shia in the world. These Islamic warriors have fought in ... Afghanistan in the 1980 & 90s Algeria in the 1990s righ thru until today Chechenya & the other states in that region Aceh (Indonesia) in the 1980s thru to today Moluccas (Indonesia) in the 1990s thru to today Southern Phillines in 1980s thru until today Bosnia in the 1990s Kosovo in the 1990s Ugyar region of northern China 1990s until today It seems that they see themselves as defenders of their peoples and their faith and that what they are fighting is a just and holy war to protect Islamic peoples against growing western dominance and aggression. Bosnia and Chechenya are two places where we have seen the very ugly side of Islamic peoples fighting genocide at the hands of Christian peoples. Both Serbs and Croatians hate muslims with an intensity I find disturbing. It reminds me of the hate we see toward Jews from many Arabs & Islamic peoples (such as at the recent conference on racism held in Africa). The Serbs & Croats will tell you how the Islamic people suppressed them for centuries & what terrible people they are. A Croat friend of mine once told me he hated the Serbs except when they were killing muslim Bosnians (saved the Croats the trouble). History certainly paints a kind picture of many Islamic empires. The Turks were far more tolerant of Christianity than the revers, despite having siezed Constantinople from Christendom. But back to the theme - I believe we are witnessing some of the extremes of action, by a people who feel besieged & fighting for their survival. OBL wants to paint the US retaliation as Islam vs West. I don't believe we see it that way at all but I am glad I am not Islamic or a Muslim. I also agree with the article linked to a few days back that paints Islam as going backward from its days as the leaders of education & knowledge. Iraq was one of the great centers of learning only as little as 500 years ago. Anyway - I really hope this Afghan program works out well for us & US Cheers - Doug Marker
Post #12,213 by brettj 10/8/01 10:22:44 AM Reply	Osama bin Laden is merely the beginning! You are absolutely correct that there are many other terrorist leaders that will need to be removed from power. The Coalition is merely putting a face on the first phase of this battle. Since bin Laden takes pride in praising these murderous attacks it only seems just that he and his extremists get our highest attention. After he either gives up or leaves this earth, then we will focus on other terrorist networks. It is a world wide effort to clean up these demons and give peace a chance. They want a Holy War of terror, the rest of the world wants world peace. Who do you think is going to win, the 10% or the 90%? P.S. Did you hear that the Palestinians are denouncing bin Laden and that their police broke up some demonstrations? I heard it on CNN about 15 minutes ago but I'm not sure I heard it right. I can hardly believe it.
Post #12,222 by dmarker2 10/8/01 11:15:02 AM Reply	Re: It is what we heard here - Palestinians know ... that US is just too bloody big and powerful to piss off - they screwed up during the Gulf war by allowing overzelous underbrained citizens to yell & celibrate when Iraq went into Kuwait but Palestinians have come to realise along with the rest of us that if the us sneezes the world catches a cold. It is interesting that this got announced - I wonder if this was part of the behind the scenes dealing. I really think that the US has the power & now the maturity & sense of purpose to shock all the sensible players into sorting out their messes. So far it is being handled very well - fingers crossed - Lets hope we hear a few more denunciations PS the news here said that the Palestinians resented OBL justifying his terror campaing by using their problems with Israel. The comments were blunt & most unlike the Palestinians as I know them :-) Cheers Doug M
Post #12,338 by brettj 10/8/01 7:10:44 PM Reply	There was a follow-up. OBL never cared about Palestine ... ... before but now it is part of his propoganda, all of the sudden. I read this to suggest that he is getting desperate to find friends, even if he never used the Palestinians as part of his politiacal agenda before. Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. I'm just surprised that so many nations seem to understand what he is up to in this attempt to start a Holy War against America. America wants to fight terrorism and injustice and Osama and his gang of brain-washed extremists want a World War. Which side is full of hatred? Is hatred a sign of God or the Devil? I appreciate your compliments of our governments response so far. We've made some mistakes in the past (as ALL governments have) but I hold out hope that all nations will work together to make our planet a global village where we can all get along. (without having to kill each other to get our point across.)
Post #12,239 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 12:22:32 PM Reply	Chechnya In 1998 they got everything they ever wanted: de-facto independence with a perspective for referendum in 10 years, their own elected governement, even the oil. Then they decided that it's not enough and attempted to add a neighboring Dagestan to their land. At about the same time, 2 appartment buildings went down in Moscow and (don't remember for sure, but probably Leningrad). NOthing was proven, but the Second Chechen War got under way.
Post #12,341 by dmarker2 10/8/01 7:17:07 PM Reply	Re: Chechnya - Phase I then II I've always believed that Russia wanted a pause to rethink how it would crush the Chechyens & once they had taken that breather they went in to finish the job - but slightly better organised & a little wiser about tactics. I don't believe Russia was going to tolerate an Islamic state so close as Chechenya was a springboard for all the states around it. Cheers Doug
Post #12,376 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 11:54:57 PM Reply	Re: Chechnya - Phase I then II That may be, but Chechens did give a perfect pretext for the second war.
Post #12,172 by dmarker2 10/7/01 11:06:35 PM Reply	Re: Not everyone sees the Taliban as oppressors ... Yes, to our western sensibilities they are. To some Afghans who fought them they are. But to many they are just a bit zealous but will sort themselves out in time. The Taliban's problem is their support for the training of Islamic warriors and urban terrorists. It is this and this alone that isolates them. If one measures the Taliban's (ignoring the terrorism training issue) against the Somalian warlords of the early 1990s, they by far preferable. But, Bin Laden is the Taliban & the Taliban warriors are him, and his anti west goals. There are a large number of peoples who see Bin Laden as a modern day saviour of Muslim & Islam against the west & its values & wants. Bin Laden may even see himself as a new Mohammad or Saladin. Saddam Hussien almost filled the role but got squashed. Now it is time to sqash OBL & the other similarly minded leaders who see this as a west vs Muslim war. Again I remind you that you calling the Taliban evil oppressors of Afghanistan is just your Christian opinion voiced from the security of a modern nation with enormous economic & military power. It ignores what others did & might do. Cheers Doug Marker
Post #12,216 by brettj 10/8/01 10:47:33 AM Reply	A couple of points. "Bin Laden may even see himself as a new Mohammad or Saladin. Saddam Hussien almost filled the role but got squashed. Now it is time to sqash OBL & the other similarly minded leaders who see this as a west vs Muslim war." According to the to the Sunni Islamic faith, Muhammad was the last prophet, period. Abraham was first (plus he was Muslem). Moses, Jesus and others were also OK but after Muhammad, nada. The Shiites believe there were prophets after Muhammad. "Again I remind you that you calling the Taliban evil oppressors of Afghanistan is just your Christian opinion voiced from the security of a modern nation with enormous economic & military power. It ignores what others did & might do." That may be true but if you look at the track record of the Taliban over the past 9 years, it is ugly and brutal. No real change from the past 20 years or so but still it's ugly. When do you suggest things will improve for the Afghan people? When all Americans are killed in a glorious Jihad? Maybe the Taiban are really a loving and kind government and I'm just biased. That does not suggest that ALL the Taliban are wicked and evil but the ones that aren't are not calling the shots, so to speak. Lastly, you are calling it my "Christian" opinion. I see it as my human and compassionate opinion. I have no problem with the Islam religion and in fact I think it teaches peace and wisdom just like most other religions. But if you insist on calling me a Christian, I can live with that. I just wish I was a more perfect one. I'll keep trying. Peace.
Post #12,225 by dmarker2 10/8/01 11:25:47 AM Reply	Re: A couple of points. The taliban actually brought stability but had the baggage of Bin Laden who was a founder of the Taliban movement. Yes they can be criticised for some of their civillian actions but all in all they were better rulers than the mad mob before them - those people commited some awful mayhem & murder before being pushed out. Granted the Taliban are mostly Pashtun & have a lot of support form imports (arabs). I am only warning against seeing them in black and white terms. The bad side of them (exporting terrorism) has got them in deep sh** Cheers Doug
Post #12,296 by tablizer 10/8/01 4:10:05 PM Reply	TaliBAM >> The taliban actually brought stability but had the baggage of Bin Laden who was a founder of the Taliban movement. Yes they can be criticised for some of their civillian actions but all in all they were better rulers than the mad mob before them - those people commited some awful mayhem & murder before being pushed out. << From what I read, the Taliban have brought back much of the brutality that they forced out. After they gained power, it went to their head(s) and they got carried away. IOW, they used some niceness to gain power, but then that niceness faded. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #12,384 by dmarker2 10/9/01 2:58:15 AM Reply	Re: Taliblame That just doesn't stack up but it is a nice smug western view of them. Afghanistan is now and became a hell hole because of the componding effect of drought and previous warfare & tribalism. Consider the Iranians, today Washington is talking to them & is ignoring many nasty deeds of terror suposedly carried out by them in their early days. The Lockerbie bombing was most likely at their instigation as payback for the civilian jetliner downed by that US a/c in the Gulf, that no one appologised for. They took over the Shah's secret police & kept them working. They began assasinations abroad, etc: etc: etc:. The Taliban's real crime was and is training terrorists for export. Calling them evil for any other reason is smug cultural arrogance on our part. Again I come back to the point that the country was blasted back to just after the stone age & has been hit by a massive long lasting drought. Doug M
Post #12,406 by Andrew Grygus 10/9/01 8:40:17 AM Reply	Absolute Bull Any organization that has bands of thugs patroling communities and beats to death anyone committing a minor infraction of "Islamic laws" (which are actually tribal customs) and are rewarded for inventing new methods of cruelty is evil from a human perspective. Any group that goes through museums and destroys anything there they don't like is mankind of his history and is committing crimes agains humanity. No, the Taliban is evil by any measure, and should be destroyed to the last participant. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,418 by dmarker2 10/9/01 11:06:17 AM Reply	Re: Absolute Bull - so you say I would argue that the Taliban is not as bad as portrayed in the west. You are sucking in western propaganda as much as anyone. I don't disagree that some of their ideas are odd. Cheers Doug
Post #12,419 by addison 10/9/01 11:10:09 AM Reply	That might depend... I would argue that the Taliban is not as bad as portrayed in the west. On your sex, and how many family members have been killed by the Taliban. Addison
Post #12,531 by dmarker2 10/9/01 8:04:26 PM Reply	Re: First to cast stones Lets have a party, we can start by having fun looking at the covert behaviour of a large western country that for decades has said one thing publicly whilst its intelligence arm was killing & plotting murder & mayhem that transformed nations, behind the scenes. I am not saying that I wouldn'd do same in the shoes of a president but it does seem that there is a blidness by some in looking at the behaviour of others esp when both sets of deeds are filtered through propaganda machines. Cheers Doug Probably time to move on from this pointless thread - I have got the message !
Post #12,425 by Andrew Grygus 10/9/01 11:28:49 AM Reply	Are you saying then . . . . . that [link\|http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20011001-96150849.htm\|this story] is not true? Seems pretty consistent with other stories I've seen for months, but nobody was looking back then. They themselves described how they were going through the museums destroying all pre-Islamic artifacts, culminating with blasting the statues out of the cliffs. No, this is not "just Western propeganda". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,519 by dmarker2 10/9/01 7:03:19 PM Reply	Re: Are you saying then . . . No ! Destroying pre-islamic culture is an odd practice - not enough to justify a modern military power attacking this country. It is enough to cause concern to observers. I repeat yet again - the Taliban's real crime is harbouring the notion that they can and should train Islamic militants in urban terrorism and allow it to be exported to countries like USA. The fact that the CIA had a lot to do with fostering the skills & creation of the Taliban is a side issue. For this problem they can be justly deat with BUT many people ignore that Iran went through some just as ugly phases in the period after the Shah's overthrow and yet today Washington is attempting to make friends rather than blast them. This type of irony is one that causes frustration among many mid-eastern people (but is of course no justification for urban terror attacks). D
Post #12,547 by Andrew Grygus 10/9/01 9:41:26 PM Reply	You didn't deal with the main point. The article by a former Taliban enforcer describing his work. Destroying artifacts was a secondary item. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,557 by dmarker2 10/9/01 11:01:49 PM Reply	Re: What point ? The article (which I had read) describes some of the awful things people do to each other As I said in another post - 'let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone ' By this I am saying that many regimes incl the US practice nasty deeds against their own and other people to achieve certain ends. Some do it by proxy others directly. You focus on those aspects of Taliban behaviour ignores the commonality of bad practices by particular 'persons' against others. Times are very tough in Afghanistan. So all you are telling me is that some of the Taliban are accused of crude methods by this former member. I repeat yet again, The Taliban's biggest crime is training terrorists and exporting it. D
Post #12,580 by Andrew Grygus 10/10/01 2:29:47 AM Reply	And I say the Taliban's main crime is . . . . . that they have institutionalized a whole list of crimes against man (and especially against women) and against humanity, one of which happens to be training and exporting terrorists. None of these are random acts (condemned by the majority as they would be here (and most elsewhere)), they are fully integrated into the sect as part of it's culture. So times are hard in Afghanistan. Oh how my heart bleeds for the poor Taliban (most of whom seem to be Arabs and Pakistanis who are in Afghanistan by choice). [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,583 by dmarker2 10/10/01 3:19:40 AM Reply	Re: Please humor me on one point ... What I want to illustrate here is just what can be done to blacken the image of an enemy ... Do you recall this event before the US congress where Bush was requesting approval to mount his campaign against Hussien's Kuwait invasion ... In this testimony, a woman who said she worked as a nurse in a hospital in Kuwait city stated how Iraqi troops had entered the hospital and taken all the incubators from the maternity ward & had removed babys & 'thrown' some on the floor while doing so - the woman cried as she gave this testimony & so did many congresspersons & senators & also the public who saw replays of her testimony. This particular bit of evidence was amongst the most damning and emotive ever given to justify the claim that the Iraqis were murderous bastards who deserved what ever came to them. My question is - do you recall that testimony & do you agree generally with what I am saying about its impact ? Doug
Post #12,624 by Andrew Grygus 10/10/01 11:27:54 AM Reply	I remember reading about the story . . . . and thinking it didn't make sense at the time. Baby incubators? what the hell is this about? Of course there will be plenty of stuff like this from both sides (we just won't hear the ones from the other side), but in the case of the Taliban, the story I've referenced, while it may be embellished in detail, is pretty consistent with what we've been hearing for well over a year now, and consistent with the Taliban's stated policies. "Conform or die" [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,747 by dmarker2 10/10/01 6:47:54 PM Reply	Re: The later facts were damning ... The girl was not a nurse - she was the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat. The story was fabricated and she was coached by a group of people working with the CIA. The man who did the coaching and the 'company' he worked for also went to Russia to help plan Yeltsin's re election back when it was believed Yeltsin was going to be creamed by the communists & right wingers (Yeltsin won). The point about the incubator testimony was that it was pivitol evidence used to sway public opinion. It sure sucked me in at the time. Now ask yourself - that evidence swayed a nation but was baced on a bare-faced & concocted lie fed to the congress & senate. It was done by the same people who are now in power in the US. When intelligent people get taken in by such monstrous lies, we can either shrug it off or decide to be far more critical of suspect reports that seem to serve a specific purpose. That report on the Taliban smacks of this same dirty tricks swaying of public opinion. I give it a 70% - 80% probability of being deliberate misinformation. But only time may tell. Either way - as evidenced by your own opinion, it has achieved its desired effect. Cheers Doug Marker ( a - 1st casualty of war - truth b - who are the acknowleged worlds masters of propaganda & news manipulation)
Post #12,818 by Andrew Grygus 10/10/01 11:23:16 PM Reply	I am sorry, it has achieved nothing here. I was quite as convinced of the evil of the Taliban months ago as I am today, and quite as convinced they should be liquidated then as now. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,822 by dmarker2 10/10/01 11:34:10 PM Reply	Re: So be it I know I am not immune to propaganda - but as I get older I do find myself rating certain types of item on a scale of probability for its potential as truth vs blatant propaganda - this is made all the more significant when it gets proven that some of the most emotive propaganda turns out to be fabricated by people associated with ones own govt. Propaganda doesn't always offend me - I do want to be able to understand what the true intent is. Telling lies to the Senate began back in Roman times :-) Cheers Doug
Post #12,558 by dmarker2 10/9/01 11:01:50 PM Reply	Re: What point ? The article (which I had read) describes some of the awful things people do to each other As I said in another post - 'let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone ' By this I am saying that many regimes incl the US practice nasty deeds against their own and other people to achieve certain ends. Some do it by proxy others directly. You focus on those aspects of Taliban behaviour ignores the commonality of bad practices by particular 'persons' against others. Times are very tough in Afghanistan. So all you are telling me is that some of the Taliban are accused of crude methods by this former member. I repeat yet again, The Taliban's biggest crime is training terrorists and exporting it. D
Post #12,586 by Ashton 10/10/01 4:04:10 AM Reply	Well, I recall - and an appropriate reminder. She proved to be a relative of quite 'interested-party' Kuwait muckeymucks IIRC. And the story was false - as later came dribbling out. You might also have thrown in: Tonkin Gulf - the putative excuse for Johnson to receive carte blanche for the entire Vietnam massive escalation in futility and horror. Actually I'd side with Andy insofar as - there is a pattern of internal oppression of the defenseless by these robed folk - fully as execrable a factoid as is their also being in the terror-export business. (Though.. cleaning out perpetrators of internal madness is not particularly in our charter: the export part IS) But we haven't even begun to see the 110 dB audio levels to come - of massive disinformation all around, "national security" coming back to remind of all the events since 1945. After the next planned foray... Who Knows what will be done on all sides. Already one thing is clear: Murica pre-9/11 won't return in our lifetimes. For better and for worse. Where is William Blake when we need him.. Songs of Innocence and of Experience A.
Post #12,489 by marlowe 10/9/01 4:43:46 PM Reply	Yeah, but it's stable brutality With the Taliban, you get reliable murder and mayhem. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,494 by Ashton 10/9/01 4:53:54 PM Reply	Knock it off, Private !
Post #12,219 by bepatient 10/8/01 10:55:15 AM Reply	Interview with Pakistan "President"... ...last night (around 3am)...let to some very interesting insights. 1) He felt that this operation would be very short. A day or 2. 2) He was not at all supportive of assistance to the Northern Allaince. 3) He seems to believe that there will be a transition in Afghani government that will be more "populist" 4) He urged the west for more than just humanitarian aid...he wants to help Afghanistan rebuild itself..recover its agriculture and become more self-sustaining. Very enlightening...and on CNN...so every once and a while you can get some balance on US tv. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #12,223 by dmarker2 10/8/01 11:20:24 AM Reply	Re: This guy is very impressive At first he seemed just like any other tin pot Army general leading a coup - but in negotiations India & in other appearances in the past 6 months he has grown in stature & is seen as a world class statesman. He may have taken power in a coup (he was a powerful army general on a return fligh to Pakistan when the Govt refused to grant landing rights he had the civilian plane land at a nearby military airfield then went & arrested the prime minister who gave the order not to let his plane land) but he is winning a lot of plaudits. Cheers Doug Marker
Post #12,257 by deSitter 10/8/01 1:11:10 PM Reply	Wishful Thinking I was wishing the same thing, but he will topple in a popular uprising eventually.
Post #12,387 by dmarker2 10/9/01 3:03:32 AM Reply	Re: Wishful Thinking - maybe But right at this time he is the best of the buch we have seen for the past 10 years & has the smarts to be working with the US. Maybe he won't step down this year as promised. Doug M
Post #12,238 by marlowe 10/8/01 12:19:21 PM Reply	Not everyone sees the world as round. Not everyone's opinion is worth the slighest consideration. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.

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