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New Projecting?
Perhaps you are an educated person from a good family. Bin Laden may have been educated, but is not very smart. Unless that you believe that he hated his own people for their backwardness and wanted to see them destroyed. He had to know that the US needed another bogey man after the Eastern Bloc fell. Hell, he fought in Afghanistan with our weaponry against the old bogey man. Think about it.

In simple terms, post cold war America is a big dog armed to the teeth with rows and rows of very sharp teeth. For comparative military terms, we'll make the Islamic "world" a jackrabbit. If this "educated" jackrabbit chose to bite the foot of this dog, what did he think would happen? Was he betting the dog wasn't hungry? The dog had no bite? Just what fucking intelligence is in that. If he were so well educated, he would know that Americans have an attention span that coincides with Sweeps week. We wouldn't remember "who" fought this war (in socio-economic terms) any more now than in the Vietnam, Korean, WWII, Civil War, ad nauseum wars. Our national actions are never "wrong" from the Spanish American War, etc... Ask Germans about the Third Reich... This is pure and simply overintellectualizing a non complex issue.

Quite frankly, the folks in Washington - from the CIA to the White House to the Pentagon - are put there to make sure this country survives. Period. Do you think that anyone there really gives a shit what France or Germany thinks? They are not the world - nor "world opinion". There is no "west" anymore either as that implies there is an "east". Who, pray tell is the "east"? They are a political annoyance at present from this mindset. In many regards, they are beaten empiricist that pose no threat, military or intellectual. It is in the US's best interest now to court the former Eastern Bloc and Russia (an oil rich country). To continue to trade with and appease China, etc...

Bush did not screw the pooch because there was no pooch. Iraq is in the US's strategic interest because of it's oil and it's geography. It is a good place to start "cleaning up" the rest of the third world. Bin Laden gave us an excuse. Given his background, he had to know this would be the result. Right? To exhalt Bin Laden as intelligent is laughable, unless you go for the theory that he really hates his own people and wants their way of life destroyed.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Read the history of guerilla conflicts
it is replete with examples of large, well-armed, wealthy nations being brought to heel by small, low-tech, poor forces.

... and yes, he does hate the current leadership of Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries; he sees them as toads to the American behemoth.

Western Civilization need not imply the existence of an Eastern Civilization; it only needs to imply the existence of other civilizations... like China, SE Asian, Arab, African.

Is Iraq really that good a place? After all, that's what Kennedy thought about Vietnam as a way of dealing with communism in SE Asia.

To denigrate bin Laden as "not intelligent" or dumb is to risk greatly underestimating him. Let's see... he's managed to build a pan-national terrorist organisation, and build one that is able to act. You can't do that if you are an unintelligent person.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Going to give up on this one...
because I do not personally know Bin Laden. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that he is clever. Intelligent is as intelligent does or conversely, to quote a movie character, "stupid is as stupid does".

My hack analysis of his psyche puts him as a mercenary who's angry at his former boss. When the Soviet Union ceased, he was unemployed as were many other third world nations caught in the ideological struggle. All fifty cent euphemisms aside, the US and NATO really didn't give a shit about these "allies" when they were no longer convenient.

I'll give the best analogy I can think think of. A guy get's laid off and decides he's so pissed he's going to buy a gun. He goes back in to his old job and starts shooting his peers. Never does it seem that the CEO gets it. Why? If the guy really wanted to do any "good", he'd kill the dude that was responsible for his layoff. I don't even pretend to know the answer. I just find it interesting.

Unless you look at Bin Laden as perhaps a "Bluto" like character in Animal House (this calls for a really futile stupid gesture), what type of intelligence was Bin Laden showing other than callous military cunning. If you're impressed by him, you should really be impressed by the cunning the US military showed in taking Afghanistan in less time than it took the Soviets to mount an offensive. Afghanistan being probably the most quoted example in your book of a "wealthy nation being brought to heel".

I seriously digress. I found your posts in this thread thought provoking and excellent in content and basic logic. It just doesn't seem to flesh out with the basic reality, IMO.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Are you forgetting Mogadishu, Somalia?
Or for that matter (to be non-partisan) [link|http://www.dailypast.com/middle-east/us-marines-beirut.shtml|Beirut, Lebanon] in 1983?

Kill a few Americans, show some gore on TV, and they turn tail and run.

But, apparently bin Laden thinking that attacking the US at home as being worthwhile was a stretch. Still, for $100K in expenses to cause hundreds of billions in damage was hard to resist.
Alex

"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
New So then.. it's the PNAC Fundamentalists + Xian-Rightists
(of whatever collective intelligence one is pleased to assign)
VS a Paladin with an aim to be Caliph - Unify Muslims,
whose root-strategy we may only surmise, and
(of whatever collective intelligence one is pleased to assign).

Meanwhile.. through Shrub's very Large (Texas-large) mouth, currently:

Our friends are ex-friends and utterly-predictably vacillating.
*We* are firmly stuck to a Tar-Baby whose entire infrastructure must needs be utterly replaced, as the folks stand about in (Confucian) helpless confusion - with neither water, power, communications .. working worth a shit.

And for the entire-focus of the (now greatly lapsed) "Find the Terrorists" game being upon the Leader(s) -- thus damn little attention paid to the drudgery of nailing All Those loosely-coupled invisible *cells* ..

And our Constitutional Republic a mere facsimile of its former (tarnished and Corp-controlled) state, and with the VICTORY Act awaiting in the wings, next - -

What are the odds?



Ashton


Edit - and courtesy Oklahoma! cf.
Poor Jud is daid;
A candle lights his haid
. . .
..but it's summer and
we're runnin outta $Ice$
Expand Edited by Ashton Sept. 13, 2003, 12:23:36 AM EDT
New Get over yourself, friend...
This has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Shrub or Clitoris or whatever fucking political bend you want to assign. The boys behind the martyrs were trained by our own CIA. They (the CIA) have been trying to figure out how to "deal with them" since the late 80's. I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH... Myopia seems to be consuming thee lately.

You seem to grasp the macro in so many areas, why do refuse to grasp it here. This is the backwash of the cold war. This mess was created even before Shrub's daddy was in politics. I will take it even one step further and say that I am really fucking offended when I hear Peter go on about America when Great Britain was truly the one responsible for most of the mess.

Whether or not Bush Jr is politically astute or not has nothing, repeat nothing to do with this situation. The CIA was here long before him and will be calling the shots long after he's gone, irregardless of what chowderhead sits in the White House.

Think for a minute about why the Pentagon was a target. Think also what kind of hornets nest your kicking when you attack it. Do you think Bin Laden is an "intelligent" man? Logically? What could be accomplished other than what has happened. Even I predicted it to a tee the day after 9-11 on this forum - we're going to use it as an excuse to clean up the messes we created in the third world starting with Afghanistan and then Iraq, next Iran, next Syria, next North Korea.

I repeat, unless he hates his own kind and wishes to see them destroyed, what intelligent thing was accomplished?

Ashton, I know you are on a roll, so much so that you use shorthand instead of coherent English. But for whatever its worth, I find your S to N ratio quite high recently. I'm assuming you are gearing up for election year? You're a treasure, to be sure, but once again, I'm starting to suspect that your idealism may be clouding your vision. YMMV
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New PS
Bite me you panty wasted weak titted sniveling pinko communist fascist French loving turd.

Yeah, that's right. You want a piece of me... You want a piece of me?

I've never had a chance to officially "flame you". We've dropped cannisters in on eachother from time to time, occasionally even smoke bombs. But it was liberating. I even called you a "dumbass" in my initial unedited version before I hit save.

It's late and you know what? I just read my own post to which I am replying and feel somewhat like I'm reading an old Akroyd character on the original SNL, "Ash, you ignorant slut".How intelligent is it for us to be debating how intelligent someone else is? :-0

Keep up the good fight. Gotta go to bed - I'm pretty grumpy.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
New Who can resist?___"An Invitation to the Dance" -
that lovely lilt from a bygone era of real musical compositions with actual people-played instruments, none of them transistorized - nor accompanied by SHOUTING (or smashed faux-instruments either, cometothinkofit..)

OK meretricious spawn of gang-bangs by herds of syphilitic dung beetles {leave The Beatles outta this!} Why my Father's insurance policy is so Much Better than -


But Seriously, Dan .. WTF - good practice for when the Shit really hits The Fan.
I shall endeavour to omit as much shorthand as my internal-aMuse can forego.
That'll make it longer. Tough. Manifestos are such good exercise. But dumb.

And No.. I don't surmise {either} that your smart-neurons have been irreversibly deranged, via proximity to one of the world's longest-running Floating Crap Games.. with its own cult of the Virgin and other ephemera.. Really I Don't! (if I said this less obliquely we'd have to move it to Religion.)
..But you may have become self-seduced by a need for comforting What-If-We-Could.. thoughts (?)

Obv it's Hardly! about the mere fecklessness of a Shrub; it's about what lies (entendre inescapable) behind a Shrub. And I too may dabble in that higher Scale: re the end-with-a mere-Whimper of the relatively short-running Cold War -- that Con Game of Leaders Bent on Remaining in Power via the Murdered Language which created the Dead People.
This has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Shrub or Clitoris or whatever fucking political bend you want to assign. The boys behind the martyrs were trained by our own CIA. They (the CIA) have been trying to figure out how to "deal with them" since the late 80's. I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH... Myopia seems to be consuming thee lately.
NOTHING TO DO with.. Daddy's Boyz / members-All of the dread KGBPNAC !? and its early-on Let's Get Saddam no-matter-What mindset? ..As we move towards that Global hegemony "Which Everyone Wants From US" cha cha cha -->

(..sorry about the cha cha - but, I seem to hear it everywhere. Lately.)

Illustrated to a T by the daily innuendo
{but so far as I've read: no direct actual declarative statement}
to the effect that: Iraq aided and abetted
{surely Must Have helped plan ?!} 9/11.

You'd dismiss all refs to the machinations of this group, on from the Goon Squad sent to disrupt the recounts in Miami .. through today: as mostly IRRELEVANT? Wouldst see the playing-out of the '80s antics whereby our passing out of RPGs (Stingers, actually IIRC) to rub the Russki's noses in a morass -
- and now coming back to bite Our Asses

- is the Prime Map of events! including all Shrub's selection as Mortimer Snerd for his coterie of Edgar Bergens ??
[for the radio-deprived: a famous ventriloquist and his er Dummy; note that Charlie McCarthy was the more famous smarter-Dummy in his performances.]

Sorry But: you overlook all of the lower-scale stuff.. as multiplies exponentially to overtake that simpler theme. The game you suggest is also the game the PNAC planned to Win. That game also required the simple bi-polarization of that artificial 'World' now gone; especially did it demand that the US be seen as ~incorruptible Nemesis. I submit: That Game was called on account of unscheduled Darkness.

Obv. examples as cancel that milieu:
1) Le Monde September 12, 2001, We Are All Americans. More examples unnecessary, I think. Largely through the {Texas-style words put into the} mouth of aforementioned Great Leader: Not 'We' - but
"the US Government, as Instrument of that Coterie, in full control of all its vast array of WMDs":
- within days of those almost Universal messages of GoodWill:

W managed to first, disdain the offers of Help. [Texan speak was instantaneous and predictable - isn't that called 'science' - when you Can Predict?] First W said ~ Thanks. But. We Can Do It Alone. And We Will. The State of the Union message was as bellicose and Unilateral a 'message' - as no one with the IQ of a tick could Miss. And: no one did (miss).

2) and 3) Then, as matters hotted-up for the PNAC scheduled Target #1 - Iraq.

(after "2)" - the obv. auto-retaliation of Afgh. natch -- a mere bagtelle -- as predictable as a John Wayne response to a snarled dare. Equally wobbly place today as is the later invasion. Women back in sacks, etc. As if we 'cared' now or before.) We called it A War, and NOT a Criminal Action - which it WAS ergo: we Needed a State to Hit. {But not Yet.. the Saudi state that provided 100% of the Criminals - run that up your flagpole and see who salutes}

- we again -disdainfully- relegated such offers to {let you help} to relatively few and unappealing chores, sharply and sometimes overtly Insultingly! -- and with no slightest 'involvement' with the decision-making, even Under the table, let alone On it. This-all amidst a barrage of Anti-UN rhetoric right out of My Gramma's ancient issues of Human Events (John Birch Society Bible, for the newcomers). Irrelevant to the present pair of Tar Babies? and the response of the rest of the world? The French-bashing was pure 11 yo schoolyard class. Shameful! We Have No Statesmen! left..

4) Today: would anyone argue that there remains more than a vestige of this GoodWill? anything resembling so large a measure as.. a soup\ufffdon of Trust! in the words or expected Deeds? Next -- of such mouthers of nastiness as Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz and the lesser bulbs -- Rumsfeld having usurped Presidential Authority (!) to speak disparagingly about (sometimes to) other world Statesmen ??

I just Don't See That Model working, Dan. But for amusement and amazement then,

Here's [link|http://www.thismodernworld.com/| Tom T's] external review of a book about The Soul of Capitalism and his latest cartoon about the folks who would prolly hugely share your view that [link|http://www.thismodernworld.com/pages/new/new_fr.html|It Isn't *OUR* Fault!]
[Can wait til Tues for Working Assets; OR read some ads or pay-up! to read Salon's now]

See, I believe that we are seeing much More than some cold-war dance among folks with only The Radio and local Authority Figures to 'interpret' for 'clarification'. That's *new* - the added communication worldwide: factoids AND spin. Instantly

Finally, and clearly implicit within
. . .
Do you think Bin Laden is an "intelligent" man? Logically? What could be accomplished other than what has happened. Even I predicted it to a tee the day after 9-11 on this forum - we're going to use it as an excuse to clean up the messes we created in the third world starting with Afghanistan and then Iraq, next Iran, next Syria, next North Korea.

I repeat, unless he hates his own kind and wishes to see them destroyed, what intelligent thing was accomplished?
Here lies the Heart of our differing views of the matter and IMhO larger Matter? of the sort, "how it might be that the stage-play of Life demonstrates the State of Being of the actors, singly and en masse" - yeah, stuff like That; words are so flimsy sometimes..

Taking the bold first -
I think you actually Imagine That: for all that has passed since 9/11 re the US's relationship to the other 6 Billion inhabitants and multi-various flag-waving assemblages of All Those People:

We're next gonna just Go Clean Things Up\ufffd \ufffd [!!]
I Think: that's what you Just Said. Right ?? Think About That a tad longer, OK?

But before we dissect the probabilities of That Aim - what egregious fun! {must we?}
I will agree at outset: you have lots of Murican company for this view of God+US = Nemesis of All Evil (as we define All Meanings) via our Righteousness (and Nukes). And when we can't buy much more Toys abroad.. what was that Domino Theory again? Did you fold that one in?

NEVER! forget that Ultimate Saber we rattle so incessantly .. but usually, quietly enough for it to escape the newsfotainment for the True Believers' amusement and the soothing of their Allegiance to all proposals made with a proper throb in the Leadership Voice.. (He's not getting any better at that - but before.. it never had to be particularly Good a throb)

Because THAT Sword: is all we have in The End,
as and when the 'economy' falters further under the multiple burdens of [unrecoverable!] Corporate over-raiding of all Stuff worth Stealing, the understandably wary consuming-sheep portion of the unfathomable $-equations and.. the expectable de facto / or unofficial / boycott of investments in our Debt
(Our Largest Product these days: getting buyers for our notes).
We're spending your kids' kid's stuff now. But.. No New Taxes by Sonny, either.

As Middle-Class becomes a arcane-word in Econ texts of the future and we race towards a Two-Class society with Gated ""Communities"" and.. all the Others Outside:
Well, are we sure we want to debate the Pax Americana thing?

As to the underlined bit -
Right you must be: this Dumb Fuck squandered $100K or so, and all he got for a day's work was:

A pattern of US | World alienation not 1:1000000 might have imagined possible - in virtual milliseconds, as History is writ.

An intensified malaise, bizness floundering and flagellation: panic shedding of mere drone-worker commodities (ever carried in the 'Expense' column of the Econ ledgers, in the CIEIO minds. Only now: they've SHOUTED this view for all to remember.) No prospects as we speak - in the foreseeable, except bogus numbers disassociating JOBS from 'an Up Market' cha. cha. cha.

Thus far {just?} Two Tar Babies par excellance - money, reputation and Competence! -sumps as there are no numerical values to plot. Military running to Over-time in-field. Nobody rushing to install their own cannon-fodder, unless I'm missing a lot of volunteers. Conscription next? How long to train? - unless it's to be that new Thiry Years War.

WORST: the trade of a marginally-functioning Republic with at least democratic pretensions, as could have been reformed - for a sleazy Ashcroftian statue-draping Vision of surveillance 24/7, girded by such notions as:
If you Question our Wisdom - You Are a Terrorist

{which flies in the hearts/minds of a certain sort of dunce - one unAware of Just How we came to steal this land from its inhabitants; and what we Said we meant to do for the Winners.. in atonement for How we did-in the Losers}

ie Well, are we sure we want to debate the Pax Americana thing?
(What sort of 'America' would be producing What sort of 'pax'?)
And When?


Cheers,

I Who Watch
can't Do a fucking thing - Either. Like you.
We have No StatesPersons left. Either assassinated back-when.. or converted in the gene pool to - consumer-grade fodder. Soylent-$$$$
New If I've offended you...
...then my work here is done :-)


Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
New Only once though...
I think I made it clear when it happened though.

:-0

The thing that gets me is that for most of my life I have been branded a liberal and a secular humanist. When stationed in Germany for almost three years, people were constantly asking me why is the US doing this or that... Like I have a fucking clue.

I am a human being first, a nation/race/religion/whateverelse much further down. I don't think of myself as an American. Most people I've met are pretty decent, no matter their nation/race/religion/etc... if you give them half a chance.

Human beings are prone to frailties and weakness however. Power seems to fuck with most carbon based life forms. We live in continually interesting times.

Rambling on here, but I don't want you to think that I am anti British/whatever. due to my pointing out Britain's history. In fact, because of the Beatles and the Who, I felt more in tune with Great Britain than America growing up. I'm totally rambling. No point either.

It's good to communicate in a forum such as this though, if for no other reason to write down and sort out some of the things kicking about in your head.
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer


But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.


Y. Islam - Father and Son
     This needs to be taken to Flame Forum -NT - (Arkadiy) - (81)
         Rot in hell, you and your kind. - (Arkadiy) - (63)
             Blow me. - (mmoffitt) - (61)
                 Go blow up the rest of them excesses - (Arkadiy) - (60)
                     Endless applause. - (bepatient)
                     My kind of language? - (mmoffitt) - (57)
                         You insist on continuing ... - (bepatient) - (56)
                             You know, ... - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                 Oh sure I can... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                     At least the volume is coming down a little. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                         None so blind as they can't see. - (bepatient) - (5)
                                             You got myopia? - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                 Chuckle. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     Heh. You're just pretending to be thick, aren't you? - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                         I know... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                             ICLRPD (new thread) - (Silverlock)
                             Taller in Toronto - (jake123) - (1)
                                 Nothing like that Canadian engineering ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                             Actually speaker of the CN Tower indirectly... - (lister) - (41)
                                 Respectfully disagree. - (mmoffitt) - (40)
                                     Re: Respectfully disagree. - (lister) - (1)
                                         They did hit a low lying building. - (mmoffitt)
                                     Really? - (drewk) - (14)
                                         They weren't going for body count - (ben_tilly) - (13)
                                             Re: They weren't going for body count - (Nightowl)
                                             Dive-bombing is not easy with 737 - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                 They did it at the Pentagon - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                                     Re: They did it at the Pentagon - (Nightowl)
                                                     If they really dive-bombed Pentagon - (Arkadiy) - (7)
                                                         Next to it?? - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                                             Re: Next to it?? - (Nightowl) - (5)
                                                                 Check out the link Ben gave - (drewk) - (4)
                                                                     Re: Check out the link Ben gave - (Nightowl) - (2)
                                                                         Another set of links. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                             Re: Another set of links. - (Nightowl)
                                                                     more like emulating a torpedo attack from the air -NT - (boxley)
                                             Re: They weren't going for body count - (deSitter)
                                     Symbolism - (jake123) - (22)
                                         That may well be the best opinion I have heard. - (mmoffitt)
                                         You make the same mistake - (Arkadiy) - (18)
                                             Hmmm - an interesting dissection. - (Ashton)
                                             The mistake is yours - (jake123) - (16)
                                                 Applause! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 There you go again - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                     Strategically - (jake123)
                                                 Oh, and by the way - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                     Sure he could have - (jake123) - (1)
                                                         I am between you two on this. - (mmoffitt)
                                                 Projecting? - (screamer) - (9)
                                                     Read the history of guerilla conflicts - (jake123) - (1)
                                                         Going to give up on this one... - (screamer)
                                                     Are you forgetting Mogadishu, Somalia? - (a6l6e6x)
                                                     So then.. it's the PNAC Fundamentalists + Xian-Rightists - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                         Get over yourself, friend... - (screamer) - (4)
                                                             PS - (screamer) - (1)
                                                                 Who can resist?___"An Invitation to the Dance" - - (Ashton)
                                                             If I've offended you... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                 Only once though... - (screamer)
                                         Eloquently summarized - (Ashton)
                                         It's a floor polish and a dessert topping! - (Another Scott)
                             Sorry Bill, Mike has a point - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Oh You Kid___:-\ufffd_____Love. It. -NT - (Ashton)
                                 ObPlug - (deSitter)
                     Tangential flame (new thread) - (drewk)
             kudos -NT - (deSitter)
         No grey areas (or matter) to see here...move along -NT - (FuManChu) - (2)
             Unless, of course, - (bepatient) - (1)
                 Fuck you too. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         It is possible to lament the deaths of *ALL* senseless - (Ashton) - (13)
             No. - (bepatient) - (11)
                 Fair point - sorta supposing.. - (Ashton) - (5)
                     Oh it is certain... - (bepatient) - (4)
                         You don't really know - you want to Believe - (Ashton) - (1)
                             Simplistic? - (bepatient)
                         Re: Oh it is certain... - (Nightowl) - (1)
                             Interesting comparison, Owl - (Ashton)
                 No. - (Nightowl)
                 Talking about Mecca - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                     Arkadiy___you be BAAD :-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
                     Re: pretty much justified from Mike's point of view... - (mmoffitt)
                 Hmm idea - (deSitter)
             re: bad moffitt. - (mmoffitt)

Exterminate!
113 ms