Considering buying new computer...

Post #114,563 by Arkadiy 8/20/03 12:54:20 PM Reply	Considering buying new computer... Can the learned company here offer any insights? What to avoid, what to look for, who to buy from, prices and so on. I am looking for a Windows machine, one step off the best WRT the CPU and graphics. (please do not suggest Linux - that's what the current machine will be for). -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #114,574 by deSitter 8/20/03 1:31:08 PM Reply	ThinkPad A31 I can't praise this machine enough. Out of 10 units I've set up in the last year, I found not a single bad pixel in 1400x1050x10, and each unit was a solidly and flawlessly built as the next. IBM equipment cannot be bettered. -drl
Post #114,591 by orion 8/20/03 2:51:14 PM Reply	Check out Newegg.com [link\|http://www.newegg.com/\|http://www.newegg.com/] Use an Abit motherboard, they are very reliable but cost more than the cheaper PCChips etc motherboards. Get a Nividia or ATI display adapter, depending on which brand you trust. If Nividia, get a card made by the same motherboard maker, or else it might not work with the motherboard. Some motherboards have Nividia chipset video adapters built in. USR Modems, of course. Also might be listed as 3Com modems. Unless you don't want a modem. Some motherboards have modems built in. Realtek chipset network cards are the ones I use, reliable and not too expensive. Some motherboards have a LAN card built in. Get a name-brand memory stick, usually I choose Kingston, Viking, or other name brands. AMD motherboards and chips are usually less expensive and faster than Intel ones. Western Digital, Maxtor, Seagate are all good hard drives. I like Western Digital best of all because their Non-OEM drives have a 3 year warranty. Mice and Keyboards, I usually buy generic unless I need special features. But IBM keyboards are the best, Keytronic are cheaper. Logitech Mice and Trackballs are the best. Get a DVD/CDR drive, I usually look for Sony, Panasonic, BTC, Mitsumi and a few other brand names. Creative is a good brand too but expensive. Floppy drives, if you still use them, try Sony, Mitsumi, Panasonic. Creative Labs Sound Blaster cards are the best audio cards. ATX cases, get one that has a good power supply. Usually the more expensive cases have the best power supplies. Read the specs and reviews on cases before you buy one. Anything bought OEM may have a limited warranty, so beware of that. But for the cheapest results, consider our Admin's advice on the $400 computer: [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=105271\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=105271] *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #114,690 by pwhysall 8/21/03 3:48:38 AM Reply	Re: Check out Newegg.com Use an Abit motherboard, they are very reliable but cost more than the cheaper PCChips etc motherboards. Avoid PC-Chips motherboards like the plague. If Nividia, get a card made by the same motherboard maker, or else it might not work with the motherboard. Utter, unmitigated crap. USR Modems, of course. Also might be listed as 3Com modems. Unless you don't want a modem. Some motherboards have modems built in. Modems is modems is old news. Ethernet -> DSL/Cable is The Way. Realtek chipset network cards are the ones I use, reliable and not too expensive. Some motherboards have a LAN card built in. I'm all about Intel network adapters; features and performance can't be beat. AMD motherboards and chips are usually less expensive and faster than Intel ones. Well, yes and no. The new P4 boards with 866 MHz FSB will happily shit all over any Athlon you can buy once equipped with a 3GHz CPU. Low end, price/performance is definitely tilted in AMD's favour, but you have to consider whether a chip with an operating temperature of ~60 degrees C is something you want. Western Digital, Maxtor, Seagate are all good hard drives. I like Western Digital best of all because their Non-OEM drives have a 3 year warranty. Maxtor? Are you NUTS? I've RMAed more of their shitty disks than all other manufacturers combined. Mice and Keyboards, I usually buy generic unless I need special features. But IBM keyboards are the best, Keytronic are cheaper. Logitech Mice and Trackballs are the best. Modern IBM keyboards are indistinguishable from any others. Microsoft make the best mice, especially for a lefty like me; Logitech's ergo mice are so damn ergo that I can't use them. Get a DVD/CDR drive, I usually look for Sony, Panasonic, BTC, Mitsumi and a few other brand names. Creative is a good brand too but expensive. Creative Labs CD drives are shit. I went through three of those crappy things in about 18 months. I've got a Freecom CDRW now. Creative Labs Sound Blaster cards are the best audio cards. HAHAHA! Riiiiiiiiiiight. ATX cases, get one that has a good power supply. Usually the more expensive cases have the best power supplies. Read the specs and reviews on cases before you buy one. Norm, I know you're trying to be helpful, but you're alternating between spewing crap and stating the obvious. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,792 by jake123 8/21/03 2:43:01 PM Reply	Re: Check out Newegg.com > AMD motherboards and chips are usually less expensive and faster than Intel ones. Well, yes and no. The new P4 boards with 866 MHz FSB will happily shit all over any Athlon you can buy once equipped with a 3GHz CPU. Low end, price/performance is definitely tilted in AMD's favour, but you have to consider whether a chip with an operating temperature of ~60 degrees C is something you want. Buddy, I live in Canada. I'm all over that. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #114,823 by pwhysall 8/21/03 5:05:02 PM Reply	:-) Yeah, well, not all of us consider the PC to be part of our home heating system :) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,844 by Silverlock 8/21/03 10:12:04 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #114843 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=114843\|ICLRPD] ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #114,596 by inthane-chan 8/20/03 3:39:09 PM Reply	Newegg is definitely a way to go... ...if you don't mind putting all the parts together yourself. Get an NForce 2 chipset motherboard, and an AMD Athlon - the processors are good, and they're cheap. NForce 2 also has some damn spiffy sound built in, so you won't need an additional sound card. Don't skimp on the fan. Get one of the "upgraded" models - you'll thank yourself later. Video: This is a weird time to buy a video card. ATI has done a good job of cleaning up their driver act, but there's still some "bugginess" in their drivers - one specific example is that Neverwinter Nights crashes like a Mother with ATI's latest drivers. In addition, they stop updating drivers very early on for "older" hardware - basically, anything they aren't selling as new anymore. You can find hacked ATI drivers that will work with older cards, but don't bet on it. However, ATI has excellent image quality, and better performance than NVidia at this point in the game. In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others? Therin lies the true measure of a man.
Post #114,600 by admin 8/20/03 4:02:12 PM Reply	See my post about the $400 computer? [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=105271\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=105271] Update the parts for today as opposed to June. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #114,653 by Arkadiy 8/20/03 9:45:17 PM Reply	Yes, thanks. May be the way to go... Both you and Inthane are sending me to NewEgg, nForce and Athlon. That's 2 more votes than any other combination :) -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #114,765 by folkert 8/21/03 12:56:58 PM Reply	I also suggest... a VERY GOOD Power Supply. As Grygus has said elsewhere, buy a good power supply, you'll never regret it. Buy a cheapy... you will againa and again and maybe more after a fry or two. Personally, I lke the KT333A or KT400 Chipsets for mother boards... that then precludes AMD Processors... and ofhtose that make em, I like Gigabyte Best right now, Solid, well designed very generous with the ports... But hey, each to his own. I my self, for video cards... as of yet, See no real reason to move away from nVidia. RIGHT NOW is the key. I believe the more and more ATI starts to realize the OSS way of driver development... ATI cards WILL in fact be the operative machines for Linux or any other OS. The ATI hardware appears to have a lot MORE headroom. But Alot of nVidia support is out there for now. BTW, Z currently runs on an XP1900+ and a Gigabyte GA-7VRXP (KT333 Chipset) Quiet smooth well apportioned. Nice. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* So charmingly heathen, your skin is like a teardrop on a popsickle.
Post #114,956 by Steven A S 8/22/03 3:37:02 PM Reply	Re: Yes, thanks. May be the way to go... I've been very happy with my nForce2 board. I did originally have some trouble with the manufacturer's IDE drivers. The DVDRom and CDR didn't seem to be getting the full system rights, so they wouldn't autostart and some game CD verification routines failed. This was fixed simply by going with the default windows IDE drivers. This chipset comes with a very usable 5.1 surround sound system built in. Depending on the motherboard it'll come with one or two 10/100 or 1G network ports. The only card I plugged into this board is the Graphics card. If you get a board with this chipset, remember to get two matched memory sticks to take advantage of the bandwidth increase. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #115,579 by qstephens 8/27/03 3:59:44 PM Reply	Re: Considering buying new computer... Try Dell. Seriously. qts
Post #115,580 by admin 8/27/03 4:01:28 PM Reply	Why? I'm not trying to be antagonistic... I just don't see the value proposition there. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,585 by pwhysall 8/27/03 4:28:46 PM Reply	Humungously powerful systems at low prices... ...if you stay well, well away from OptiPlex systems. They're optimised for manageability which means they've got WOL, DMI and friends out the wazoo but they tend to suck hard performance-wise. The Dimension 8300 I'm going to be getting in a couple of months (3.2GHz P4, 1G RAM, 200G SATA disk, Radeon 9800 Pro, 18" digi flat panel yadda yadda) comes in at about \ufffd2K. You just can't do that by buying the bits; the screen alone would eat nearly half your budget. OK, I'll try: CaseTek case, \ufffd52.88 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=58927\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=58927] 450W PSU, \ufffd36.43 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=59491\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=59491] 3.2GHz P4 CPU, \ufffd546.75 : (Scan don't provide product info for this) MSI 875PNEO-FIS2R mobo with SATA, \ufffd149.81 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=61402\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=61402] 1G PC3200 memory, \ufffd123.38 : (Scan don't provide product info for this) 128Mb ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, \ufffd281.94 : (Scan don't provide product info for this) SoundBlaster Audigy 2, \ufffd85.72 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=43842\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=43842] 18.1" TFT Iiyama 4636D, \ufffd727.33 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=14342\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=14342] Windows XP Pro, \ufffd246.74 : [link\|http://www.insight.com/uk/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=MSSA026NS\|http://www.insight.c...duct_id=MSSA026NS] Altec Lansing 641 4.1 speakers, \ufffd217.96 : [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=28116\|http://web6.scan.co....fo.asp?WPID=28116] Western Digital 200G SATA disk, \ufffd189.16 : [link\|http://www.insight.com/uk/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=WDGA03KVP\|http://www.insight.c...duct_id=WDGA03KVP] Total: \ufffd2534.72 And that's before shipping! I know you could do that spec for MUCH less if you were prepared to (a) economise on quality and (b) shop around and (c) assemble the thing yourself. However, what the Dell has that the above system doesn't is 3 years on-site warranty :) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #115,586 by pwhysall 8/27/03 4:30:35 PM Reply	Damn. Add another 100 quid or so for a DVDROM drive + DVD writer. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #115,590 by Another Scott 8/27/03 4:50:31 PM Reply	Apples and oranges. The Dimension 8300 has a 250 W power supply. Dell doesn't offer the Iiyama monitor. I'm not up on memory these days, but you spec'ed PC3200 DDR RAM while the 8300 uses 400 MHz dual channel DDR - I don't know if they're equivalent. Dell typically skimps on memory speed. I get about $3800(2400 pounds) for a 8300 per your specs (but the 200 GB drive is Ultra ATA, not SATA, the speakers are different, etc.) from Dell US. It often does cost a little more to built-it yourself. But it's important to compare apples to apples - i.e. you can probably get better parts for the same price as the big PC houses. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #115,611 by pwhysall 8/27/03 7:28:50 PM Reply	PC3200 == DDR 400, if I'm reading things right. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #115,614 by Another Scott 8/27/03 8:29:05 PM Reply	Right. crucial.com lists them as the same. Of course, you can get 500 MHz DDR RAM now from Corsair. $378 for 2x0.5 GB from newegg.com For the kind of money that Dell wants for the 8300 I would buy a nice display and about 6 $400 Athlon machines and set up a Beowulf cluster instead. >:-D Why am I reminded of an [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=104428\|LRPD] you nominated? ;-) I hope you get the box! Cheers, Scott.
Post #115,699 by inthane-chan 8/28/03 2:49:21 PM Reply	ICRLRPD I See a Recursive LRPD! Why am I reminded of an LRPD [*] you nominated? In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others? Therin lies the true measure of a man.
Post #115,701 by inthane-chan 8/28/03 2:49:32 PM Reply	Re: ICRLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #115700 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=115700\|Re: ICRLRPD] In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others? Therin lies the true measure of a man.
Post #115,606 by orion 8/27/03 7:12:40 PM Reply	Huh? I thought you didn't like SoundBlasters? Or am I remembering [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=114690\|your post] differently? Thing is I've had zero issues with Creative Labs audio cards. Your milage may vary. *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #115,609 by pwhysall 8/27/03 7:28:11 PM Reply	Oh hush. Just comparing like for like. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #115,641 by folkert 8/27/03 11:06:35 PM Reply	Yurz and Minz and Dellz Yours: [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=58927\|CaseTek Case CK-1018-B] \ufffd45.00 ex/VAT [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=59491\|450W CWT + SATA] \ufffd31.00 ex/VAT 3.2GHz P4 CPU, \ufffd465.32 ex/VAT [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=61402\|MSI 875PNEO-FIS2R 800fsb i875] \ufffd127.50 ex/VAT 1G PC3200 memory, \ufffd105.00 ex/VAT 128Mb ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, \ufffd239.95 ex/VAT [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=43842\|SoundBlaster Audigy 2] \ufffd73.00 ex/VAT [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=14342\|18.1" TFT Iiyama 4636D] \ufffd619.00 ex/VAT [link\|http://www.insight.com/uk/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=MSSA026NS\|Windows XP Pro] \ufffd209.99 ex/VAT [link\|http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=28116\|Altec Lansing 641 4.1 Professional] \ufffd185.50 ex/VAT [link\|http://www.insight.com/uk/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=WDGA03KVP\|Western Digital 200G SATA disk] \ufffd160.99 ex/VAT \ufffd2.143.82 == Total Line Item Cost \ufffd??? == Shipping \ufffd??? == Extended Warranties \ufffd395.90 == VAT \ufffd2,658.15 == Total Cost plus \ufffd100 for a DVD/CD Writer Mine: [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16811186029\|CaseTek Case CK-1019-2B] $49.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16817153008\|Thermaltake W0013 Silent Purepower 480W] $63.99 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16819116164\|Intel Pentium 4 3.2GHz 512k 800MHz FSB Retail] $635.00 ex/TAX ($476.25 ex/TAX OEM no fan or heatsink) [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16813130414\| 875P Neo-FIS2R] $174.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16820145449\|CORSAIR MEMORY XMS, With Black Heat Spreaders.Retail] $248.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16814102297\|ATI RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB DDR 8X AGP] $389.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16829102154\|Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2] $112.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16824006045\|Sony 18" Black LCD TFT Monitor, Model SDM0S81R/B ] $515.00 ex/TAX (This one has way better specs too) [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16837102143\|Microsoft Windows XP Professional with Service Pack SP1a] $143.00 ex/TAX (OEM Pricing when purchased with Hardware) [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16836113130\|Altec Lansing 5100 5.1 6-Piece Speaker System] $130.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16822144153\|Western Digital 200GB SATA WD2000JD 7,200 RPM 8MB Hard Drive] $238.00 ex/TAX [link\|http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=N82E16827109204\|TDK Indi DVD+/-RW Drive AID+440N] DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, CD-R, CD-RW $239.00 $2,905.99 == Total Line Item Cost with a $30 instant Rebate on TFT Display $40 == Shipping $123.12 == Extend Warranties 1 year past Original on all parts except TFT Display (shucks) $174.36 == 6% Michigan Sales Tax $3,079.36 == Total cost shipped to my door Dell Dimension 8300 Apportioned Much alike the previous: $3,617.00 == Total Machine Cost with priority Support for full 3 year term $90.00 == Shipping $222.42 == TAX $3,929.42 total cost shipped to my door. Yurz:\t$4,413.04\t\ufffd2,758.15\nDell:\t$3,929.24\t\ufffd2,455.78\nMine:\t$3,079.36\t\ufffd1,924.60 I don't know... but I am seeing a bit of a trend. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Your fingers are as divine as the pope's nostril hair.
Post #116,859 by qstephens 9/6/03 5:07:19 AM Reply	Re: Yurz and Minz and Dellz Aren't you forgetting the cost of all the software that comes with it? You don't just get XP Pro, you get Works and other bits and bobs. And your prices seem way OTT. For a 2.8 GHz Dell with XP Pro, 1 GB RAM, and a 120 GB HDD I get a total cost of \ufffd1450 + \ufffd219 for Office Pro. A 3.2 GHz Dell Dimension 8300 with identical options is \ufffd1743 All prices include VAT. Both systems include TFT monitors. qts
Post #116,864 by folkert 9/6/03 9:16:00 AM Reply	Please compare Apples to Apples Please. If you'll note... EVERYTHING on the machine and proper Hard Drive Specs... and so on. Including the Upgraded Video and the lavish Hard Drive space, the sound system the ... well you understand. Please compare The equivalently apportioned 8300 as compared to mine or peters. Thanks... oh and also take into account the prices are continuously falling, were as Dell's are not typically going to until they feel like it. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Nits, Nats, GNITS, GNATS, always to many to choose from.
Post #115,643 by Arkadiy 8/27/03 11:21:28 PM Reply	I did Dell last time... In mid-to-low-end machines (which seems to be all I can afford), Dell appears to be $100 or more premium over no-name computers. 25% difference. No good. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #116,107 by Arkadiy 8/31/03 5:34:14 PM Reply	Purchased!! Details later - setting up.... -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #116,755 by Arkadiy 9/5/03 11:43:20 AM Reply	Already some problems... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=116754\|post] -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum

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