Post #114,006
8/16/03 6:53:16 PM
8/16/03 6:58:41 PM
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Disagree Somewhat....
But, in terms of career path, Nursing still has LOTS of opportunities.
With your RN, you can quickly process into Nursing Management, Hospital Management, Insurance Review (where you don't ever actually SEE a patient), and even some IT positions for "business analysts" in hospitals are looking for nurses with IT experience.
Finally, if you enjoy the job, you can get a Master's Degree and become a nurse practitioner, which is about as close as you can get to being a doctor, without actually being one.
The IT industry has so retrenched, that unless you espouse experience in EXACTLY the 2 mile long skill set in the ad, you're not even in consideration. I applied for a Kinko's HDQ job here in Dallas, and the recuiter rejected me because I didn't have Clarify experience (even though I have a TON of systems integration experience in lots of other systems, and met or exceeded ALL of their other requirements). This is stupid. They don't want an employee, they want a contractor without paying contract rates. Contracts are for specific skillsets.
The problem is that people want IT on the cheap now. They have been told by Harvard professors that "IT doesn't matter anymore", just like "electricity" doesn't matter anymore. Tell that to 50 million people in the Northeast. Since IT doesn't matter, we can go hire someone for $8 an hour (or less) in a foreign country, and get exactly the result we want. I'm almost to the point of offering my services for $8 an hour and then when they arrive, explain to them what $8 an hour will buy them and ask if they want to pay a little more and get a little more.
I'm tired of a bunch of MBA weenies who go to ivy league schools (who probably even cheated to get their degrees) telling corporate America what to do, and having a bunch of pussy managers taking what they say as gospel. This is simply B.S. and we need to show these ivy leaguer MBA's what their degree bought them. As far as I'm concerned it should be a one-way ticket on a boat to India to work for TaTa.
I'm tired of Lincon's postings, because it's a sore spot with me, too. It makes me so depressed sometimes that I just want to leave the industry entirely. However, I shouldn't feel this way. I've had two good, high paying and challenging jobs over the last two years, but the pressure of these jobs is burning me out quickly.
My wife says that I should just blow off IWETHEY because these posts depress me. That I should just stay focused on being successful where I'm at, even if it means regular 60 hour weeks.
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY, and I try to react in a positive way to the wholesale rape of the IT industry by a bunch of greedy SOB ivy league MBAs working in glass offices in New York. I'm rapidly learning to HATE Accenture, McKinsey, Booz and the like, to the point that if I actually meet someone working for these places, I want to punch them out.
Now, I'm not a hating kind of guy, but this whole outsourcing thing really gets to me. And, yes, I DO actually buy American as much as I can. I drive two Fords (Windstar, Taurus). I even know that the Taurus was assembled in Chicago (even though the parts came from halfway around the world).
We need decent jobs for Americans, and I mean decent jobs at ALL levels, not just for IT people. Manufacturing and even 7-11 needs to pay something like $13/hr if you live in the city and expect to live decent. I made $9/hr at my first IT job, but it was OK because my rent was $235 a month for a 500 sq ft. apartment. And I didn't have a wife or kids, then.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 06:56:42 PM EDT
Disagree Somewhat....
But, in terms of career path, Nursing still has LOTS of opportunities.
With your RN, you can quickly process into Nursing Management, Hospital Management, Insurance Review (where you don't ever actually SEE a patient), and even some IT positions for "business analysts" in hospitals are looking for nurses with IT experience.
Finally, if you enjoy the job, you can get a Master's Degree and become a nurse practitioner, which is about as close as you can get to being a doctor, without actually being one.
The IT industry has so retrenched, that unless you espouse experience in EXACTLY the 2 mile long skill set in the ad, you're not even in consideration. I applied for a Kinko's HDQ job here in Dallas, and the recuiter rejected me because I didn't have Clarify experience (even though I have a TON of systems integration experience in lots of other systems, and met or exceeded ALL of their other requirements). This is stupid. They don't want an employee, they want a contractor without paying contract rates. Contracts are for specific skillsets.
The problem is that people want IT on the cheap now. They have been told by Harvard professors that "IT doesn't matter anymore", just like "electricity" doesn't matter anymore. Tell that to 50 million people in the Northeast. Since IT doesn't matter, we can go hire someone for $8 an hour (or less) in a foreign country, and get exactly the result we want. I'm almost to the point of offering my services for $8 an hour and then when they arrive, explain to them what $8 an hour will buy them and ask if they want to pay a little more and get a little more.
I'm tired of a bunch of MBA weenies who go to ivy league schools (who probably even cheated to get their degrees) telling corporate America what to do, and having a bunch of pussy managers taking what they say as gospel. This is simply B.S. and we need to show these ivy leaguer MBA's what their degree bought them. As far as I'm concerned it should be a one-way ticket on a boat to India to work for TaTa.
I'm tired of Lincon's postings, because it's a sore spot with me, too. It makes me so depressed sometimes that I just want to leave the industry entirely. However, I shouldn't feel this way. I've had two good, high paying and challenging jobs over the last two years, but the pressure of these jobs is burning me out quickly.
My wife says that I should just blow off IWETHEY because these posts depress me. That I should just stay focused on being successful where I'm at, even if it means regular 60 hour weeks.
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY, and I try to react in a positive way to the wholesale rape of the IT industry by a bunch of greedy SOB ivy leave MBAs working in glass offices in New York. I'm rapidly learning to HATE Accenture, McKinsey, Booz and the like, to the point that if I actually meet someone working for these places, I want to punch them out.
Now, I'm not a hating kind of guy, but this whole outsourcing thing really gets to me. And, yes, I DO actually buy American as much as I can. I drive two Fords (Windstar, Taurus). I even know that the Taurus was assembled in Chicago (even though the parts came from halfway around the world).
We need decent jobs for Americans, and I mean decent jobs at ALL levels, not just for IT people. Manufacturing and even 7-11 needs to pay something like $13/hr if you live in the city and expect to live decent. I make $9/hr at my first IT job, but it was OK because my rent was $235 a month for a 500 sq ft. apartment.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 06:58:41 PM EDT
Disagree Somewhat....
But, in terms of career path, Nursing still has LOTS of opportunities.
With your RN, you can quickly process into Nursing Management, Hospital Management, Insurance Review (where you don't ever actually SEE a patient), and even some IT positions for "business analysts" in hospitals are looking for nurses with IT experience.
Finally, if you enjoy the job, you can get a Master's Degree and become a nurse practitioner, which is about as close as you can get to being a doctor, without actually being one.
The IT industry has so retrenched, that unless you espouse experience in EXACTLY the 2 mile long skill set in the ad, you're not even in consideration. I applied for a Kinko's HDQ job here in Dallas, and the recuiter rejected me because I didn't have Clarify experience (even though I have a TON of systems integration experience in lots of other systems, and met or exceeded ALL of their other requirements). This is stupid. They don't want an employee, they want a contractor without paying contract rates. Contracts are for specific skillsets.
The problem is that people want IT on the cheap now. They have been told by Harvard professors that "IT doesn't matter anymore", just like "electricity" doesn't matter anymore. Tell that to 50 million people in the Northeast. Since IT doesn't matter, we can go hire someone for $8 an hour (or less) in a foreign country, and get exactly the result we want. I'm almost to the point of offering my services for $8 an hour and then when they arrive, explain to them what $8 an hour will buy them and ask if they want to pay a little more and get a little more.
I'm tired of a bunch of MBA weenies who go to ivy league schools (who probably even cheated to get their degrees) telling corporate America what to do, and having a bunch of pussy managers taking what they say as gospel. This is simply B.S. and we need to show these ivy leaguer MBA's what their degree bought them. As far as I'm concerned it should be a one-way ticket on a boat to India to work for TaTa.
I'm tired of Lincon's postings, because it's a sore spot with me, too. It makes me so depressed sometimes that I just want to leave the industry entirely. However, I shouldn't feel this way. I've had two good, high paying and challenging jobs over the last two years, but the pressure of these jobs is burning me out quickly.
My wife says that I should just blow off IWETHEY because these posts depress me. That I should just stay focused on being successful where I'm at, even if it means regular 60 hour weeks.
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY, and I try to react in a positive way to the wholesale rape of the IT industry by a bunch of greedy SOB ivy league MBAs working in glass offices in New York. I'm rapidly learning to HATE Accenture, McKinsey, Booz and the like, to the point that if I actually meet someone working for these places, I want to punch them out.
Now, I'm not a hating kind of guy, but this whole outsourcing thing really gets to me. And, yes, I DO actually buy American as much as I can. I drive two Fords (Windstar, Taurus). I even know that the Taurus was assembled in Chicago (even though the parts came from halfway around the world).
We need decent jobs for Americans, and I mean decent jobs at ALL levels, not just for IT people. Manufacturing and even 7-11 needs to pay something like $13/hr if you live in the city and expect to live decent. I make $9/hr at my first IT job, but it was OK because my rent was $235 a month for a 500 sq ft. apartment.
Glen Austin
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Post #114,017
8/16/03 8:29:02 PM
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How do I respond to this?
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY
You almost make it sound like I'm one of the reasons, or even THE reason you want to leave. I certainly hope not. You flatter me by assuming that I have that much weight in this community, but we all know that there are plenty of people that I hold in awe for their intelligence that reside here. Perhaps I have been a little too energetic in posting on this specific topic, and others like yourself are getting jaded by what you consider constant repetition. Perhaps, based upon my past employment experiences, I still carry a grudge about the way that I was treated and the way thousands of others were (and still are) treated. I believe that the IWETHEY community is in agreement that we all deserved better. I look into these stories for ideas on how to cope with events and for sources of inspiration - many people are worse off than I, and I publicly will admit it. But these stories are becoming a never-ending pattern of abuse of the middle class IT workers by bean counters and PHBs who can't look beyond the next Wall Street quarterly results. All I can do is apologize to you and say that driving you away, or even causing you to become disillusioned about the IT industry, was never my intention. I have written my Congressdroids and received the standard useless form letter responses. I try to post leads, email and call friends in need, whenever I learn of job opportunities. But switch to a more web-based career for the future? That's a dead-end. Who's going to hire me when they can have a pre-brainwashed, "college educated", M$ loving droid work for less than $20/hour? Supporting a family on that amount is extremely difficult anywhere in the country, not to mention how it would limit the available discretionary funds to use for furthering my IT training. I've got to plan for the kids' college funds, have emergency cash ready whenever the need arises, etc. It's not like I'm working for party cash or spring break trips to Florida. Please stay and try not to be bummed out by my postings.
lincoln "If you're on your deathbed and you haven't got a story to tell, then you haven't lived. - Asa Baber" [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume] [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume] [link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #114,019
8/16/03 8:34:27 PM
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Re: How do I respond to this?
For what is it worth, I like your posts. Continue on as you see fit.
If nobody likes it, they can always use the Killfile method on your posts, as some already do with mine. Just a few simple stylesheet changes, anyone with the experience of editig text files can do it.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,033
8/16/03 11:06:47 PM
8/16/03 11:50:06 PM
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Sorry...
I just get depressed watching this go down.
I have a number of colleagues who are currently unemployed, and don't deserve to be. It's depressing talking to friends who have now been out of work more than 6 months. One of my friends, a former Oracle account exec, has been laid off more than 1 year. When it was a person or two, I tried to pep talk them, buy meals, tried to encourage them and keep 'em going. But now I have enough friends out of work, I'm just really scared about my own job.
The posts depress me further because it's evidence that this isn't just Dallas, TX in the dumps.
It depresses me because, with the exception of family and church, computers have pretty much been my whole life for more than 20 years. I've worked with computers since 1982. I've worked on a hell of a lot of different platforms, from mainframe to IBM PC to Unix, and I'm mad as hell that the bean counters think I'm not worth anything anymore. I do things in days that it takes many departments months or years to do. I wrote an ANSI X12 tokenizer, segment validator in C++ last week for an EDI demo next week. I wanted to write the transaction set validator, so we would have a complete parser, but was stopped short by my boss, the owner.
It would be like being a doctor, a damn fine surgeon, for 20 years, then having someone walk in one day and say, "When you finish this surgery, you're done. Pack up your things and go home." No doctor with any pride is going to let that happen to him. Yet, I feel powerless to do anything. I don't have an AMA or certification to fall back on, to defend me against the PHB.
I don't know what to do with the rage. I'm a committed Christian, but I can't just say "oh well, my career is now worthless". It makes me angry.
My wife is a nurse assistant, currently working on a Physician's Assistant degree. But she's barely done with pre-reqs. She needs at least 4-5 more YEARS of education before she's going to be bringing home any significant amount of money. I have 3 kids, whose demands for food and stuff just seem to grow and grow.
I need to make what I'm making 3-4 more years, yet we're deferring major purchases at home ( new floor, furniture ), because my wife is very concerned that we'll be in linc's situation in just a few months. Our furniture is now 9 years old, and we're sewing it back together every month. Our new wood floor 5 years ago is now ruined from water stains (it wasn't done well to begin with), but replacement tile is $4500. How do you even think about a purchase like this in our environment?
In 2001, we had a 3 year old car, and we bought a 1 year old car, thinking we were "smart". Now, I wish we would have kept the 1994 Saturn, or even the 1985 Cutlass, both sold at 95,000 miles. Either car would have about 170,000 miles now, but we could have kept back the $17,500 the 1 year old car cost. In 2003, we keep the same cars, even with 0% financing. We'll be driving our cars a long, long time.
George W. sent me a $1200 check a couple of months ago, to encourage me to spend money. The only way I'm spending is if I can be assured to have a replacement job at at least 80% of what I'm making now (which certainly doesn't look like it's very possible). So, thanks for the check, I'll save it to pay my own unemployment, later.
All the while, I hear of a war costing 50 billion dollars, a government debt so large it would take the entire GNP of the country for 3 years to pay it off. All the while, we've committed to pay for the retirement and medicare of a whole baby boomer generation (which I was born just AFTER), and the savings that was supposed to be there ISN'T. It's flat out fraud. We should jail the whole of Congress. The lincoln articles keep coming. Something's gotta change, and THIS ELECTION!
I don't want to vote Democrat, because I'm a conservative Christian and don't agree with pro-choice. I don't want to vote Republican because they're the ones who are feeding from the till of the rich and selling off the country for their friends. By the way, the if the Republicans don't sell off the country, the Democrats will.
So, who do you get behind? Especially when you realize that the best 3rd party candidate effort in modern history got Bill Clinton elected?
I'm sorry Brian and Ross, but I really would rather bury my head in the sand be pretend it's all right, because, in the end, I realize that there probably isn't a damn thing I can do about it.
I'm one man, and as long as the R-rated movies, beer, TV shows, and football flow, everyone will probably go on living, pretend it's all right, and vote for a Democrat or Republican. Sadly, our economy will be gone in about 20 years. I guess I need to forget about the Texas Tomorrow fund, and teach my kids how to hunt and fish (and prepare game), 'cause that may be the only way they get fed.
Do Lincoln and DeSitter, how do YOU change this? I don't see how...
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 11:08:25 PM EDT
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 11:50:06 PM EDT
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Post #114,039
8/16/03 11:50:38 PM
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It depresses me too
my profession it IT, and managers feel that we are "a Dime a Dozen" because so many of us are out of work. Downsized, replaced by outsourcing, etc. Not a darn thing we can do about it either.
I'm glad I am out of work and on disability so I don't have to deal with the mess the IT job market is in. I don't get paid much, but at least it is steady pay.
Maybe one day things will turn around for the IT market? Maybe the jobs will come back somehow? We can only hope and pray that they do.
But one thing remains the same, change. IT keeps on changing, the technology keeps on changing, so we have to keep on learning new things. What we knew 5 years ago is outdated now, what we know now will be outdated 5 years from now. Unless the company we work for wants to hand on to the older technology, we have to move on or else.
We have no Union, we have no say in the way Corps decide our fate, many talented people are let go so often it sickens me.
So I guess our jobs are being outsourced to those who consider it an oppertunity to work for peanuts. Even a starving man will see table scraps as a full course meal. Until their country's economy improves so much that they start demanding a higher salary, and then the jobs get outsourced again to another country.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,100
8/17/03 8:29:12 PM
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I know that song.
I don't have the career, I don't have the Comp. Sci. degree - I'm getting mine sometime in spring.
I'll have $30k in student loans hanging like a fucking albatross around my neck. My wife already has $70k from getting her Masters degree - before the bottom fell out of the psych market. She's relying on me to bring in the big bucks so that she can be a part-time worker, part-time parent.
I don't have the heart to break it to her. I've spelled it all out to her, but I just can't come out and say, "Honey, we're in debt for the rest of our lives, and we'll be lucky to keep making $10/hour, let alone what we're making right now."
There's this book I read (I'm going somewhere with this, trust me) where somebody equated going through a certain experience as being like a fish hauled out of the water, and held just close enough to the surface that it could see that it had been swimming in water the whole time.
"But whatever you do," said the book, "Don't put that fish back in the water with other fish who haven't had the same experience. He'll be swimming up to them, and saying, 'Hey, this is water we're swimming in, water!' They'll just shake their heads, and when he's gone, say 'Poor Ned, he just hasn't been the same...'"
You'll know the difference. I know the difference. It will haunt you until the end of your days, like it haunts me every moment I'm awake. It is why I wake up at three in the morning and stare at the ceiling, wondering how I'm going to do it - how I'm going to make a career while all around me the world is falling to pieces, and do I have the guts, when it comes to it, to pick up the torch of revolution against the fascist pigs? Will I leave this place a better world for my spot in it, or will I too live out my life in quiet desperation, pretending that I never understood anything greater?
I work with computers because, from the moment I first saw a Pong machine in the basement of the Seattle Science Center, I wanted to make those dots move on the screen. I do not resent some poor bastard from another country struggling to make ends meet - I was born into privilege, as were we all \ufffd and that privilege was too much of a drain on the rest of the world. It\ufffds like crabs in a pot. If one crab climbs too high, the rest will pull him down trying to climb out themselves. Meanwhile, we\ufffdve got the "cooks" up at the top giving us a helpful little push while getting ready to make the world over in their own fascist image.
No, I don\ufffdt want to take it lying down. I hope not a single one of us here is willing to take it lying down.
I just don\ufffdt know how (or where) to stand.
In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others?
Therin lies the true measure of a man.
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Post #114,109
8/17/03 9:00:44 PM
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Hang on there
something is sure to come your way if you pursue it. Some jobs only want natural citizens, the problem is the competition so you have to be at the top of your game. A friend of mine and former business partner got an IT job when over 400 people applied for it. It is support, fixing systems, building systems, ordering parts, sending back damaged parts, etc but he got the job.
It wouldn't hurt to buy a lottery ticket just in case every once in a while. My wife and I are doing that. At least it makes us feel better that we could win and our financial woes would be over. Just $1 or $2 with each gas fill-up does that.
Government jobs are almost always going to US Citizens, someone they can trust to get a security clearance. If you got a clean record, I suggest you try looking there. Once you get in to a government job, you are almost set for life.
Healthcare jobs in the IT field are also mostly US Citizens. Try applying at the local hospitals.
$100,000USD in debt is a lot, but I've seen more. That is almost as much as a house costs in a good neighborhood. Like a house payment it may take you 15 to 30 years to pay it off.
I got friends who haven't had IT work in over 3 years, and they do side consultng work to make ends meet. Try to work out short-term consulting contracts with consulting companies for one day jobs or more. Sort of like being a temporary worker.
If your wife has a hobby and can make things, see if you can sell any of them. She can do this at home while watching the kid(s), nnd the kid(s) can help too. Knitting, bead making, earrings, or even magnets can generate at least some income. Get a table at a Flea Market or Craft Fair and see how well you do. I myself have a talent for pottery, but I don't have a Kiln or Wheel to work with. I discovered this talent when I was in a hospital as a teenager and they had it for therapy. I used to make ceramic Dragons, Schmoos, Ashtrays, etc. There has to be something she and you can do to earn some extra income. Every little bit helps. My Godmother writes stories, has her sister draw the pictures, and her husband knit the bags and covers and she sells them at Craft Fairs and Flea Markets. It helps make ends meet.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,166
8/18/03 3:39:48 AM
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Re: I know that song.
The fish allegory of the caves, eh? (And it's All true, btw)
Also have a friend in hock to the Feds (and in a field that never would pay a tiny fraction of the Gone-forever .com numbers: 'languages'. Can't get a CIEIO from Those. But you can sure talk dumb without 'Those' being understood, around a society.)
Thanks to the rampant Repo mindset - and Efficiency = all those $ saved not-attending to physical infrastructure (no profit in That) and edjaKayshun - (nope, no Return by next Quarter):
There IS no Murican educational system except: what you pay for during.. and for the rest of your life. That Universal Education thing? Another long-gone aspect of the Dream (notice how Often today that 'American Dream' mantra gets repeated? What is it, Freddie Mac? - who incorporate it into every ad for new home loans).
I suspect though.. when torturing self with that long-term repayment plan your sig. is affixed-to: there are apt to be amnesties for educational loans..
(Assuming of course, that the country is not [via some horrible perdition of Karmic Repayment] doomed to live out the Prescott Bush Clan's plan for a Dynastic series of Shrub's siblings, one-at-a-time.. until the entire GNP is safely removed to the Cayman Islands' bulging computers)
ie I believe you have too-much company! for the bean counters to be able to maintain this much of a permanent Albatross on so many backs. (No evidence to support this; just seems the way it Must go, unless we're so fucked that .. but let's not go There)
Cheers,
Ashton
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Post #114,117
8/17/03 9:22:48 PM
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Do the same thing I do
Shit he's on a roll, mark post read. I like his posts sometimes, other times I will go "another job loss post" and skip altogether. thanx, bill
America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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