Post #113,947
8/15/03 10:26:57 PM
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More layoff casualties are taking what they can get
Tom Calderini used to supervise three teams of software programmers spread across two states and an office overseas, but that job never tested his ``people skills'' quite like this.
``Sorry,'' an apron-clad Calderini says gently, addressing the mother of a girl in purple flip-flops whose head is barely level with his new workstation -- the counter at the local Starbucks. ``We're all out of blueberry.''
Spoken like a true survivalist in a job market that calls for desperate measures.
Desperate, but increasingly familiar to scores of workers who, unable to find jobs equal to well-paid white-collar positions they lost in layoffs, are grasping at survival jobs offering considerably less.
Since early 2001, the economy has shed about 2.7 million jobs, stranding workers from the stricken information technology and telecommunications sectors and the broad ranks of middle management thinned by corporate cost-cutting.
In the 1990s, those jobs were the prizes of the New Economy, offering substantial paychecks, stock options, and generous benefits, along with the promise of hopscotching to something even better.
But that's all a memory, and many displaced white-collar workers driven by frustration and money worries are settling for work as food servers, security guards and retail clerks.
``A lot of people are going into auto sales or working at The Home Depot,'' said Larry Elle of Success Associates, a Boston-area job counseling agency. ``They're kind of grasping at straws.''
For some of those survival-job takers, ``there's a lot of shame and embarrassment in doing it because it's a feeling of going backward,'' he said.
The attraction is largely financial -- a paycheck to cover bills and, in the best cases, employer-subsidized health insurance. But for some, at least, it's also about the need to do something, anything, to again participate in the working world.
That doesn't mean finding such a job is easy. Calderini, a 41-year-old father of two who used to make about $80,000 a year, was indignant after being turned down for work at a home improvement store, an upscale grocery store and an outdoor gear shop.
Now he vacillates between praising the Starbucks job -- it offers health insurance and a chance to meet people who might be a link to another career -- and voicing a certain queasiness, not unlike a ballet dancer forced to dance for tips in a strip joint.
``Some days I say I can't believe I'm doing this, getting up at quarter to five to go sell coffee for not very much money,'' says Calderini, of Marlboro, Mass., a bedroom community between Boston and Worcester. ``But If I give up on this, it's almost like I've given up altogether.''
It's hard to know just how many workers like Calderini have taken survival jobs -- since they're working again, they're not reflected in the unemployment rate -- but their ranks are swelling.
The shift is hinted at in figures tallied by the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics showing that about 4.7 million people who want to work full-time have settled for part-time jobs because of economic conditions, nearly a 50 percent increase from three years ago.
The willingness to settle reflects the difficulty of finding equivalent jobs. The time the average jobless worker remains unemployed has stretched to more than 19 weeks, up from about 12 weeks in early 2001. More than one in five jobless workers -- about 2 million people -- have been out of work longer than half a year.
But many workers settling for lower-paying jobs have been searching for much longer.
Take Herman Gold, who lost his job as a project manager for a consulting company at the end of 2001. When months went by without a nibble from potential employers, Gold took a job as a clerk in a Kinko's photocopy shop near his home in Naperville, Ill.. a Chicago suburb. He left that job for another as an office administrator at a used car dealership, working 20 to 30 hours a week.
Gold says he thought of himself as an isolated case until he went to a networking meeting at the local library in March and sat next to an unemployed electrical engineer.
Gold was impressed to hear the man had received 17 patents in his years at Lucent Technologies. But the man was focused only on getting out of the meeting by noon so he could grab some sleep before rushing off to a third-shift job as a stocking clerk in a warehouse.
``It turned me into saying, 'Hey wait a minute. What's going on here?''' Gold recalls.
Such an account would not surprise Cary Coovert, who lost his job as a software engineer in late 2001. This May, he finally gave in and took work as a security guard, patrolling an office and retail complex in Cambridge, Mass.
It means that each Friday night, Coovert puts his two daughters to bed before changing into a uniform so he can work through the weekend on the 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. shift. The job pays $9.25 an hour, and Coovert figures he now makes about a third of what he did in his past life.
``I'm ashamed to be in the situation I'm in,'' he says. ``I feel like I wasn't watching the business. I wasn't watching the economy. I feel like I wasn't paying attention. I'm not sure anybody was paying attention back in the '90s.''
The transformation of the labor market has stunned many jobseekers, says Sharee Wells, an adviser in the Tulsa, Okla., office of career counseling agency Bernard Haldane Associates, which has seen many of its clients take survival jobs unrelated to previous careers.
``It's extremely difficult for young people who didn't know anything else, who have never known hard times and think they're very valuable just because they're on the planet,'' she says. ``The folks who are older have a tendency to get more anxious or desperate about being able to maintain their lifestyles, ... respectability in the community, and things like that.''
Some survival holders see a silver lining in all this.
Andy Massa was making $130,000 a year when he was cut from an executive job with a software subsidiary of Group Bull in late 2001. Since then, he's sold jewelry in a department store and worked as a cashier at a ski slope, both at $8 an hour. An avid golfer, he's moved on to jobs related to his hobby -- one helping run the pro shop at a local golf course, another selling golf equipment in a mall sports shop.
``It's a lot simpler and less challenging than it used to be, but I've learned to be humble,'' says Massa, of Hudson, Mass.
``I see guys coming on to the golf course wound pretty tight. They're guys who come in and are late for their tee times and they expect me to do something,'' he says. ``I enjoy dealing with people who remind me what I used to be like.''
Calderini, who says he was never particularly social, can relate. The experience behind the counter at Starbucks has been good for him, forcing him to be outgoing, to smile and interact with people, he says.
But something is still not right.
Not long ago, his wife, Kathy, ran into an acquaintance and mentioned that Tom Calderini had taken a job at the local coffee shop.
``I think I know who he is,'' the woman responded. ``He looks like he's the one who doesn't belong there.''
[link|http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/6542323.htm|source]
lincoln "If you're on your deathbed and you haven't got a story to tell, then you haven't lived. - Asa Baber" [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume] [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume] [link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #113,988
8/16/03 11:55:21 AM
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This must be your "thing"...
Because, even though you got a new job already (and TWO offers, to boot), you're still posting about losses in the industry.
Brian, this isn't the place. We all understand. Boy, do we understand. If you're so engrossed in U.S. job losses, then perhaps the time you spend here posting should be spent writing your congressman, or organizing a labor march on some major software HDQ.
You could stop here in Dallas and organize a protest against EDS, JCPenney (which recently advertised in Infoworld for IT jobs, then didn't have any when you visited their jobs site), IBM, Perot, or any number of IT companies headquartered here.
Personally, I'm going to work on solving this problem one of about 3 ways:
1. Create my own website and company, earning money from web applications. 2. Move to a job in IT that would be difficult to outsource, like in the healthcare industry, defense, or U.S. government. 3. Move to another industry. Perhaps I'll work on teaching computers at a University, or teaching math and science at a high school or community college. 4. Do something completely different, like be an auto mechanic, a handyman, or maybe a minister.
The idea here is to simply stop complaining to people who can't do anything more about the job situation than you can. Find a way to work through this, Brian.
I know the industry is unpleasant right now, but I can make some predictions here:
1. Many of these outsourcing initiatives will fail. They will fail because developing good software is difficult to begin with, and with a language and distance barrier, I would say it's close to impossible. How useful will software be when your CRM is the equivalent quality of the toys you buy for your kids? My mother's friends are already complaining about the lousy service they're getting from American Express, and why the person on the other end of the line can't speak English, and they know nothing about computers.
2. Wage inflation in India, at least, is already pushing salaries up.
3. China will be another problem, because the language barrier is much larger, the political system favors so few people, and the government policies are so restrictive, that I really don't think they will ever create "Excellent" or even "Good" software. The employee who does our GUI programming is from China, and he's in trouble, because he can't communicate with us. He's certainly inexpensive, but the GUI part of our product out there is nearly unusable, without training. One of our field engineers is quickly taking over his job. As inflation grows in these countries, wages will reach an equilibrium point with the United States, then the industry worldwide, will start to get better.
3. Political activism will kick up as more and more white collar employees are un/under employed. 2004 will likely cost the Republicans both the White House and Congress, unless some of the promises of economic growth are fulfilled, especially those at the "working man" level. But, remember that the Democrats aren't much better, they get paid by the same rich businessmen. If you really want a change then a bunch of Americans will decide to vote 3rd party in 2004. I hope that there's a REAL alternative, that focuses on economics and not much else.
4. Finally, if you're really committed to this industry, you'll stay and work for less or even no money. You either love computers and IT, or you're here for a paycheck. I worked on computers as a hobby before I got a job in the industry. So, if the jobs dry up, I'll still do computers, I just won't get paid to do it.
I can tell you right now, if you have a heart for helping people, nursing is where it's at from a job perspective and will be for the next 20-30 years, as baby boomers retire. So, if you want a hot job, you need to look in healthcare, and not necessarily in computers. Lots of positions are in demand, just look in the paper.
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Post #113,991
8/16/03 2:13:15 PM
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POTD! Some comments.
Excellent post, Glen. I think that the relative advantages that India and China have now will decrease over time, but it'll take a while. I can tell you right now, if you have a heart for helping people, nursing is where it's at from a job perspective and will be for the next 20-30 years, as baby boomers retire. So, if you want a hot job, you need to look in healthcare, and not necessarily in computers. Lots of positions are in demand, just look in the paper. I'd be very careful about jumping into nursing now. Yes, there is a big demand for nurses and that should continue on current trends, but in many respects it's like the programmer shortage of the late 1990s - there are lots of jobs for people who are willing to take low wages or put up with a very stressful position with little real power over what happens on the job (the physicians have ultimate authority). Several places around here have nurses work 12-hour shifts 3 or 4 days a week and the staff is paper-thin to minimize costs. When someone goes on vacation, someone else has to work a double-shift and/or work a 48 or 60 hour week. Since getting a nursing degree takes at least a couple of years of work, and since the job market can change in unexpected ways, it's important to understand the plusses-and-minuses before committing to it based on what's happening at the moment. For instance, it's not unthinkable that the laws will be changed so that many of the tasks that require an RN or LPN now will be able to be performed by people with less training. "We can't find enough nurses to do the work! We've got to do something!" That would make any degree in nursing less valuable and any nursing position less valuable. Nursing is like many jobs - there are a lot of bad things about the profession. Of course, this is common sense, but I thought it was worth mentioning. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #114,006
8/16/03 6:53:16 PM
8/16/03 6:58:41 PM
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Disagree Somewhat....
But, in terms of career path, Nursing still has LOTS of opportunities.
With your RN, you can quickly process into Nursing Management, Hospital Management, Insurance Review (where you don't ever actually SEE a patient), and even some IT positions for "business analysts" in hospitals are looking for nurses with IT experience.
Finally, if you enjoy the job, you can get a Master's Degree and become a nurse practitioner, which is about as close as you can get to being a doctor, without actually being one.
The IT industry has so retrenched, that unless you espouse experience in EXACTLY the 2 mile long skill set in the ad, you're not even in consideration. I applied for a Kinko's HDQ job here in Dallas, and the recuiter rejected me because I didn't have Clarify experience (even though I have a TON of systems integration experience in lots of other systems, and met or exceeded ALL of their other requirements). This is stupid. They don't want an employee, they want a contractor without paying contract rates. Contracts are for specific skillsets.
The problem is that people want IT on the cheap now. They have been told by Harvard professors that "IT doesn't matter anymore", just like "electricity" doesn't matter anymore. Tell that to 50 million people in the Northeast. Since IT doesn't matter, we can go hire someone for $8 an hour (or less) in a foreign country, and get exactly the result we want. I'm almost to the point of offering my services for $8 an hour and then when they arrive, explain to them what $8 an hour will buy them and ask if they want to pay a little more and get a little more.
I'm tired of a bunch of MBA weenies who go to ivy league schools (who probably even cheated to get their degrees) telling corporate America what to do, and having a bunch of pussy managers taking what they say as gospel. This is simply B.S. and we need to show these ivy leaguer MBA's what their degree bought them. As far as I'm concerned it should be a one-way ticket on a boat to India to work for TaTa.
I'm tired of Lincon's postings, because it's a sore spot with me, too. It makes me so depressed sometimes that I just want to leave the industry entirely. However, I shouldn't feel this way. I've had two good, high paying and challenging jobs over the last two years, but the pressure of these jobs is burning me out quickly.
My wife says that I should just blow off IWETHEY because these posts depress me. That I should just stay focused on being successful where I'm at, even if it means regular 60 hour weeks.
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY, and I try to react in a positive way to the wholesale rape of the IT industry by a bunch of greedy SOB ivy league MBAs working in glass offices in New York. I'm rapidly learning to HATE Accenture, McKinsey, Booz and the like, to the point that if I actually meet someone working for these places, I want to punch them out.
Now, I'm not a hating kind of guy, but this whole outsourcing thing really gets to me. And, yes, I DO actually buy American as much as I can. I drive two Fords (Windstar, Taurus). I even know that the Taurus was assembled in Chicago (even though the parts came from halfway around the world).
We need decent jobs for Americans, and I mean decent jobs at ALL levels, not just for IT people. Manufacturing and even 7-11 needs to pay something like $13/hr if you live in the city and expect to live decent. I made $9/hr at my first IT job, but it was OK because my rent was $235 a month for a 500 sq ft. apartment. And I didn't have a wife or kids, then.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 06:56:42 PM EDT
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 06:58:41 PM EDT
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Post #114,017
8/16/03 8:29:02 PM
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How do I respond to this?
So, I'm kind of at a point here. Either I stop reading lincoln's posts (I really do LIKE the guy), or I leave IWETHEY
You almost make it sound like I'm one of the reasons, or even THE reason you want to leave. I certainly hope not. You flatter me by assuming that I have that much weight in this community, but we all know that there are plenty of people that I hold in awe for their intelligence that reside here. Perhaps I have been a little too energetic in posting on this specific topic, and others like yourself are getting jaded by what you consider constant repetition. Perhaps, based upon my past employment experiences, I still carry a grudge about the way that I was treated and the way thousands of others were (and still are) treated. I believe that the IWETHEY community is in agreement that we all deserved better. I look into these stories for ideas on how to cope with events and for sources of inspiration - many people are worse off than I, and I publicly will admit it. But these stories are becoming a never-ending pattern of abuse of the middle class IT workers by bean counters and PHBs who can't look beyond the next Wall Street quarterly results. All I can do is apologize to you and say that driving you away, or even causing you to become disillusioned about the IT industry, was never my intention. I have written my Congressdroids and received the standard useless form letter responses. I try to post leads, email and call friends in need, whenever I learn of job opportunities. But switch to a more web-based career for the future? That's a dead-end. Who's going to hire me when they can have a pre-brainwashed, "college educated", M$ loving droid work for less than $20/hour? Supporting a family on that amount is extremely difficult anywhere in the country, not to mention how it would limit the available discretionary funds to use for furthering my IT training. I've got to plan for the kids' college funds, have emergency cash ready whenever the need arises, etc. It's not like I'm working for party cash or spring break trips to Florida. Please stay and try not to be bummed out by my postings.
lincoln "If you're on your deathbed and you haven't got a story to tell, then you haven't lived. - Asa Baber" [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume] [link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume] [link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #114,019
8/16/03 8:34:27 PM
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Re: How do I respond to this?
For what is it worth, I like your posts. Continue on as you see fit.
If nobody likes it, they can always use the Killfile method on your posts, as some already do with mine. Just a few simple stylesheet changes, anyone with the experience of editig text files can do it.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,033
8/16/03 11:06:47 PM
8/16/03 11:50:06 PM
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Sorry...
I just get depressed watching this go down.
I have a number of colleagues who are currently unemployed, and don't deserve to be. It's depressing talking to friends who have now been out of work more than 6 months. One of my friends, a former Oracle account exec, has been laid off more than 1 year. When it was a person or two, I tried to pep talk them, buy meals, tried to encourage them and keep 'em going. But now I have enough friends out of work, I'm just really scared about my own job.
The posts depress me further because it's evidence that this isn't just Dallas, TX in the dumps.
It depresses me because, with the exception of family and church, computers have pretty much been my whole life for more than 20 years. I've worked with computers since 1982. I've worked on a hell of a lot of different platforms, from mainframe to IBM PC to Unix, and I'm mad as hell that the bean counters think I'm not worth anything anymore. I do things in days that it takes many departments months or years to do. I wrote an ANSI X12 tokenizer, segment validator in C++ last week for an EDI demo next week. I wanted to write the transaction set validator, so we would have a complete parser, but was stopped short by my boss, the owner.
It would be like being a doctor, a damn fine surgeon, for 20 years, then having someone walk in one day and say, "When you finish this surgery, you're done. Pack up your things and go home." No doctor with any pride is going to let that happen to him. Yet, I feel powerless to do anything. I don't have an AMA or certification to fall back on, to defend me against the PHB.
I don't know what to do with the rage. I'm a committed Christian, but I can't just say "oh well, my career is now worthless". It makes me angry.
My wife is a nurse assistant, currently working on a Physician's Assistant degree. But she's barely done with pre-reqs. She needs at least 4-5 more YEARS of education before she's going to be bringing home any significant amount of money. I have 3 kids, whose demands for food and stuff just seem to grow and grow.
I need to make what I'm making 3-4 more years, yet we're deferring major purchases at home ( new floor, furniture ), because my wife is very concerned that we'll be in linc's situation in just a few months. Our furniture is now 9 years old, and we're sewing it back together every month. Our new wood floor 5 years ago is now ruined from water stains (it wasn't done well to begin with), but replacement tile is $4500. How do you even think about a purchase like this in our environment?
In 2001, we had a 3 year old car, and we bought a 1 year old car, thinking we were "smart". Now, I wish we would have kept the 1994 Saturn, or even the 1985 Cutlass, both sold at 95,000 miles. Either car would have about 170,000 miles now, but we could have kept back the $17,500 the 1 year old car cost. In 2003, we keep the same cars, even with 0% financing. We'll be driving our cars a long, long time.
George W. sent me a $1200 check a couple of months ago, to encourage me to spend money. The only way I'm spending is if I can be assured to have a replacement job at at least 80% of what I'm making now (which certainly doesn't look like it's very possible). So, thanks for the check, I'll save it to pay my own unemployment, later.
All the while, I hear of a war costing 50 billion dollars, a government debt so large it would take the entire GNP of the country for 3 years to pay it off. All the while, we've committed to pay for the retirement and medicare of a whole baby boomer generation (which I was born just AFTER), and the savings that was supposed to be there ISN'T. It's flat out fraud. We should jail the whole of Congress. The lincoln articles keep coming. Something's gotta change, and THIS ELECTION!
I don't want to vote Democrat, because I'm a conservative Christian and don't agree with pro-choice. I don't want to vote Republican because they're the ones who are feeding from the till of the rich and selling off the country for their friends. By the way, the if the Republicans don't sell off the country, the Democrats will.
So, who do you get behind? Especially when you realize that the best 3rd party candidate effort in modern history got Bill Clinton elected?
I'm sorry Brian and Ross, but I really would rather bury my head in the sand be pretend it's all right, because, in the end, I realize that there probably isn't a damn thing I can do about it.
I'm one man, and as long as the R-rated movies, beer, TV shows, and football flow, everyone will probably go on living, pretend it's all right, and vote for a Democrat or Republican. Sadly, our economy will be gone in about 20 years. I guess I need to forget about the Texas Tomorrow fund, and teach my kids how to hunt and fish (and prepare game), 'cause that may be the only way they get fed.
Do Lincoln and DeSitter, how do YOU change this? I don't see how...
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 11:08:25 PM EDT
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 16, 2003, 11:50:06 PM EDT
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Post #114,039
8/16/03 11:50:38 PM
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It depresses me too
my profession it IT, and managers feel that we are "a Dime a Dozen" because so many of us are out of work. Downsized, replaced by outsourcing, etc. Not a darn thing we can do about it either.
I'm glad I am out of work and on disability so I don't have to deal with the mess the IT job market is in. I don't get paid much, but at least it is steady pay.
Maybe one day things will turn around for the IT market? Maybe the jobs will come back somehow? We can only hope and pray that they do.
But one thing remains the same, change. IT keeps on changing, the technology keeps on changing, so we have to keep on learning new things. What we knew 5 years ago is outdated now, what we know now will be outdated 5 years from now. Unless the company we work for wants to hand on to the older technology, we have to move on or else.
We have no Union, we have no say in the way Corps decide our fate, many talented people are let go so often it sickens me.
So I guess our jobs are being outsourced to those who consider it an oppertunity to work for peanuts. Even a starving man will see table scraps as a full course meal. Until their country's economy improves so much that they start demanding a higher salary, and then the jobs get outsourced again to another country.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,100
8/17/03 8:29:12 PM
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I know that song.
I don't have the career, I don't have the Comp. Sci. degree - I'm getting mine sometime in spring.
I'll have $30k in student loans hanging like a fucking albatross around my neck. My wife already has $70k from getting her Masters degree - before the bottom fell out of the psych market. She's relying on me to bring in the big bucks so that she can be a part-time worker, part-time parent.
I don't have the heart to break it to her. I've spelled it all out to her, but I just can't come out and say, "Honey, we're in debt for the rest of our lives, and we'll be lucky to keep making $10/hour, let alone what we're making right now."
There's this book I read (I'm going somewhere with this, trust me) where somebody equated going through a certain experience as being like a fish hauled out of the water, and held just close enough to the surface that it could see that it had been swimming in water the whole time.
"But whatever you do," said the book, "Don't put that fish back in the water with other fish who haven't had the same experience. He'll be swimming up to them, and saying, 'Hey, this is water we're swimming in, water!' They'll just shake their heads, and when he's gone, say 'Poor Ned, he just hasn't been the same...'"
You'll know the difference. I know the difference. It will haunt you until the end of your days, like it haunts me every moment I'm awake. It is why I wake up at three in the morning and stare at the ceiling, wondering how I'm going to do it - how I'm going to make a career while all around me the world is falling to pieces, and do I have the guts, when it comes to it, to pick up the torch of revolution against the fascist pigs? Will I leave this place a better world for my spot in it, or will I too live out my life in quiet desperation, pretending that I never understood anything greater?
I work with computers because, from the moment I first saw a Pong machine in the basement of the Seattle Science Center, I wanted to make those dots move on the screen. I do not resent some poor bastard from another country struggling to make ends meet - I was born into privilege, as were we all \ufffd and that privilege was too much of a drain on the rest of the world. It\ufffds like crabs in a pot. If one crab climbs too high, the rest will pull him down trying to climb out themselves. Meanwhile, we\ufffdve got the "cooks" up at the top giving us a helpful little push while getting ready to make the world over in their own fascist image.
No, I don\ufffdt want to take it lying down. I hope not a single one of us here is willing to take it lying down.
I just don\ufffdt know how (or where) to stand.
In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others?
Therin lies the true measure of a man.
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Post #114,109
8/17/03 9:00:44 PM
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Hang on there
something is sure to come your way if you pursue it. Some jobs only want natural citizens, the problem is the competition so you have to be at the top of your game. A friend of mine and former business partner got an IT job when over 400 people applied for it. It is support, fixing systems, building systems, ordering parts, sending back damaged parts, etc but he got the job.
It wouldn't hurt to buy a lottery ticket just in case every once in a while. My wife and I are doing that. At least it makes us feel better that we could win and our financial woes would be over. Just $1 or $2 with each gas fill-up does that.
Government jobs are almost always going to US Citizens, someone they can trust to get a security clearance. If you got a clean record, I suggest you try looking there. Once you get in to a government job, you are almost set for life.
Healthcare jobs in the IT field are also mostly US Citizens. Try applying at the local hospitals.
$100,000USD in debt is a lot, but I've seen more. That is almost as much as a house costs in a good neighborhood. Like a house payment it may take you 15 to 30 years to pay it off.
I got friends who haven't had IT work in over 3 years, and they do side consultng work to make ends meet. Try to work out short-term consulting contracts with consulting companies for one day jobs or more. Sort of like being a temporary worker.
If your wife has a hobby and can make things, see if you can sell any of them. She can do this at home while watching the kid(s), nnd the kid(s) can help too. Knitting, bead making, earrings, or even magnets can generate at least some income. Get a table at a Flea Market or Craft Fair and see how well you do. I myself have a talent for pottery, but I don't have a Kiln or Wheel to work with. I discovered this talent when I was in a hospital as a teenager and they had it for therapy. I used to make ceramic Dragons, Schmoos, Ashtrays, etc. There has to be something she and you can do to earn some extra income. Every little bit helps. My Godmother writes stories, has her sister draw the pictures, and her husband knit the bags and covers and she sells them at Craft Fairs and Flea Markets. It helps make ends meet.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #114,166
8/18/03 3:39:48 AM
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Re: I know that song.
The fish allegory of the caves, eh? (And it's All true, btw)
Also have a friend in hock to the Feds (and in a field that never would pay a tiny fraction of the Gone-forever .com numbers: 'languages'. Can't get a CIEIO from Those. But you can sure talk dumb without 'Those' being understood, around a society.)
Thanks to the rampant Repo mindset - and Efficiency = all those $ saved not-attending to physical infrastructure (no profit in That) and edjaKayshun - (nope, no Return by next Quarter):
There IS no Murican educational system except: what you pay for during.. and for the rest of your life. That Universal Education thing? Another long-gone aspect of the Dream (notice how Often today that 'American Dream' mantra gets repeated? What is it, Freddie Mac? - who incorporate it into every ad for new home loans).
I suspect though.. when torturing self with that long-term repayment plan your sig. is affixed-to: there are apt to be amnesties for educational loans..
(Assuming of course, that the country is not [via some horrible perdition of Karmic Repayment] doomed to live out the Prescott Bush Clan's plan for a Dynastic series of Shrub's siblings, one-at-a-time.. until the entire GNP is safely removed to the Cayman Islands' bulging computers)
ie I believe you have too-much company! for the bean counters to be able to maintain this much of a permanent Albatross on so many backs. (No evidence to support this; just seems the way it Must go, unless we're so fucked that .. but let's not go There)
Cheers,
Ashton
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Post #114,117
8/17/03 9:22:48 PM
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Do the same thing I do
Shit he's on a roll, mark post read. I like his posts sometimes, other times I will go "another job loss post" and skip altogether. thanx, bill
America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,007
8/16/03 7:12:16 PM
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Re: This must be your "thing"...
I cannot disagree more with this Pollyanna-ism.
What we are seeing, and what has Linc riled, is the ruination of the middle class - indeed, the idea of a stable, relatively prosperous middle class was an abberation of the post-war reconstruction - and what we are seeing is the fadeout of that brief period - and I don't like it, and Linc doesn't like it, and he's 100% dead-on correct.
Do your "thing" Linc - you are right on.
-drl
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Post #114,022
8/16/03 8:40:31 PM
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Seconded
I don't need to work in IT to fit it into the larger picture - the scale least likely to appear in OpEd columns or be slavered over by Corp Newsfotainment. (The idea would rate a 93-second mini-rant only.. at some late night hour. Followed by Tom Tomorrow's blow-dried caricatures: smirking at each other .. as they move to sports.)
The Middle Class across the board: THAT is the monopoly-money that is being rapidly traded-away for the appearance of an at least 'positive' Next-Quarter pile of Econ BS. Artfully-selected Stats: the preferred BS of All Investor/Wall St. mindsets - in vacuo of the human consequences of all these faux-deliberations.
Few of these holders of 'creative TLA Titles' have actually Worked Hard for a day's pay - whereby something tangible had to be produced and on a regular basis (except during summer gigs, while getting that junk-MBA). These are folks who could not master a Real university course - and who planned to coast on others' labor.. for life. It used to sorta 'work', too. I recall the Boom in MBA courses a while back (and knew some of the acolytes - pretty soon they began to Talk Funny.)
Little wonder that a mixture of duplicity and yes- long-time conspiracy (!) would receive such damn-little attention: we are the Euphemism Capital of the world and we Love that Murican Dream even more desperately.. as the nightmare-aspect is slowly unmasking, so that Any idiot can see it.
Solutions? [Hah] - Epiphany! - how do you arrange for one of those ?? short of blood in the streets: of disappointed Yuppies This Time! (along with the old-time brothers, long long aware of the Dream-scam).
Sheesh - we Love comfy Dumbth more than survival.
Ashton
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Post #114,029
8/16/03 9:48:01 PM
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ObAOL
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #114,038
8/16/03 11:38:15 PM
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But Ross...
Are you willing to kill the rich, risk your neck, challenge the government (who just required me to sign the Patriot Act) to make a change?
I doubt there are very many in America that are willing to risk their prime time shows and AOL chat line to change the way things are done around here...
Yet, the sacrifice it will take in the next generation just to pay the retirements of Baby Boomers on Social Security could bankrupt us all.
I want to go polly-anna, because I share your angst. I HATE where we're at, right now. As I posted in a different post, I've invested 20 years in the computer industry and I'm MAD AS HELL that a bunch of Indians and Chinese want to pretend they understand computers, make a bunch of promises, and take it away from us all.
But, like I said in the other post. I just don't see that there's a whole lot I can do about it, except save a bunch of money and batton down the hatches and expect a rough ride, if/when I ever lose my job. In the meantime, I have to work like hell to avoid being the "next layoff", even working weekends, if necessary to keep the income coming in.
I want a new Populist party. I want candidates who give a DAMN about AMERICA and AMERICANS! I want someone who cares enough about the citizens here to fund education programs. I want someone tough enough to tell a bunch of people feeding at the federal till to GET OUT, and to put most all of the government admin types on a budget diet. A want a budget that operates at a surplus for the next 20 years and pays down our huge trillion dollar federal debt. I want tariffs for foreign imports, based on working conditions, and pollution levels, and basically make imports taxed until they meet the same conditions factories are required to maintain in the U.S. Either that, or we repeal our pollution and labor laws, and we allow our factories to operate like those in China (I'm NOT in favor of that). I want our military out of Iraq and Liberia, and Afghanistan. I want power companies investing in windmills in Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas to generate power. I want us to collective use our brainpower to figure out that WE DON'T NEED SOME DAMN ARAB'S OIL, we can create electricity from the sea, the rivers, and from the wind.
Funny, I'm actually starting to want a single payer health care system, too. I don't like the government taking on the complete responsibility for healthcare, but I really do believe that for most people, the English and Canadian systems work better than the mess we have. The state governments are already paying so much healthcare, Medicaid, that we might as well nationalize it. I want patients under the new system to sign that they will not sue doctors, except for cases for gross negligence resulting in disability or death. If the patient wants the right to sue, then they need to visit a "private" doctor, and pay for the insurance costs.
I want every high school or college graduate to serve our country for 2 years, either in the military or in some service capacity (in veteran's hospitals, in low-income schools, as border guards, as auditors of private company books, working in IT for the government).
I want every executive's salary capped at about 1 million dollars per year, for base compensation. I want a 6 month minimum reporting period for companies (to stop this quarterly earnings insanity). I want the tax rate for persons making over 250 thousand per year to be 70% or 80%.
Do I want too much?
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Post #114,018
8/16/03 8:31:44 PM
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What we can do
If there is an Online Petition, please let me know so I can sign it.
I already have a company, it is currently inactive and is registered as a hobby. If I can take some business courses, I may be able to turn it around. I already have development skills and I could do freelance work if needed from home. Believe it or not I am trying to read a book on Java and another on Delphi (thanks to CRConrand's suggestion and me learning Pascal in College).
Solving the problem: #1 I have a company, if I learn more business smarts I may be able to make some money off of it.
#2 I used to work as a Federal Contractor, I still have connections. Problem is I'd have to move out of state to Huntsville Alabama to work for the base there.
#3 I did work as a tuitor for Comp Sci students for free once. While I couldn't handle a class room, I am sure I could do tutoring.
#4 Not sure what my skills are in other areas, I've been a computer geek my whole life. I cannot even scamble an egg correctly, not sure if I could cook for a living.
Predictions:
#1 This may come true, unless they teach the employees to speak English better and learn better program design. I predict that many IT staffers will be sent overseas to train the individuals there to program better and communicate better.
#2 Maybe India is pushing salaries up, all that means is that companies will have to outsource to other countries like Thailand, Mexico, The Phillipines, etc. It has happened before and will happen again.
#3a I worked with a man who came to the US from China. He could write complex code that did amazing things and we both learned ASP together. He has three Engineering degrees from China, and could communicate very well with me over the programs we worked on. He was an Engineer, not a Programmer, so I had to help him learn Visual BASIC and ASP until he progressed to a level that he didn't need me anymore to teach him. Later he got his MCSD and quit the law firm and went to work as a Contractor making a lot of money. So don't count the Chinese out yet, many of them are able to adapt to a new environment. China is now trying to reject Microsoft software and only wants to buy from local Chinese companies. So chances are that they will develop their own alternatives to existing products. Imagine a Chinese Windows clone, etc.
#3b Me, I'll vote for an Independant canidate. Problem is that most Americans are voting for either Democrat or Republican canidates. With Bush's approval ratings, he might very well get elected unless the Democrats can come up with someone who can really challenge him.
#4 I help fix friends and family's computers for free. If I have to, I can get a job fixing computers, ordering parts, etc. Not as high paying as Development, but at least I can earn an income. The job requires the IT Staffer to be on-site to fix the local computers.
Healthcare, I'd rather be the one developing the software that Doctors and Nurses use than be a Nurse myself. I don't have what it takes to be a Nurse, my wife who is a LPN said so as she knows me. I hope to get a niche market with Nursing Homes, as Boomers will retire a lot, and they'll need a computer database to keep track of meds, incident reports, etc.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #115,062
8/23/03 11:56:19 AM
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I disagree, I'm probably wrong
I'm back employed, have been for almost a month.
And I remain very, very pissed off. The loss of the feeling that the skills I have worked so hard to build are valuable is not reversible. Because it turns out (and I always knew it, I just never felt it) that it was false. Like that fish story. Yes, my skills are being used again, they have some value, but not a widely marketable value, not a value that I can count on to make a living.
I am not one who thinks, because I'm back in the game, that the economy has turned around.
For the most part, I'm sure what I feel now is a wave of bitterness that exceeds reasonable reaction, that will pass. But it is not entirely unwarranted.
---- Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver you turn on the windshield washer you keep going.
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Post #115,064
8/23/03 12:17:06 PM
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very well said
It's not any specific thing, rather the overall feeling that I cheated myself out of a decent career by picking this business. I'm really worried about retirement and all that. Nothing to be done except keep going on...
-drl
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Post #115,087
8/23/03 4:25:58 PM
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Computers as a career
Well even if I am not working, I am fixing friends and relatives computers, for free. So my Technician skills are still being kept up to date. After all, no matter what happens to the job market, someone is going to have to clean up this mess that Microsoft made. Just a matter of gaining the business and accounting and marketing skills to make a small business suceed at tech support work.
Also there is always Nursing, as the Baby Boomers get older and sicker, hospitals, nursing homes, hospices, etc are all hiring nurses. Takes about a year to get a CNA, after that the employer will pay you to take classes to get a LPN or RN degree. That is if you should choose to cross-train in Healthcare, and get a degree and get certified. Also having that degree will help you to get hired by medical companies in their computer department. If you know Healthcare, you can make solutions for it with computers.
Something I should have considered, was to learn two or more areas in college in case one of them fails or the market goes sour. I almost went into Engineering, but if I did I'd face the same problems with the computer jobs.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #115,205
8/24/03 6:00:26 PM
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Maybe you're getting it..
Maybe not.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=115171| Barry's] comments here seem pretty up-to-date and - surely he is among a few here who have actual daily hire/fire responsibilities within a Medium? Large? (typical??) US Company
From all you've said, I can't imagine how You imagine.. that the Post-.com IT now "commodity industry" - is apt to want to pay you a decent wage, one capable of supporting [any] US Family\ufffd .. at least one who doesn't dine periodically, from a dumpster behind (a soon Ex-) "Middle Class" restaurant.
If I read his post with comprehension, he is saying: Hell Desk at $10/hr and No Perks [!!] is the level of *this* economy: now aiming Depression-wards, and certainly Not valuing hard-won techno-skills any higher than would McD's or Walmart ==
Our Future for some time? in the mega-Monopolization of as many 'needs' as Can be Monopolized next. [That's just My crystal ball, of course - you can always pray for a Miracle]
As many have said before (and I) - Surely! the problem-solving skills you have acquired - in general sense - is applicable to those many many Other areas which need such an ability. As surely.. many recent 'grads' of fatally-defective 'courses' Lack such 'skills' (or lack having learned the development of such Skills).
Why!? would you doggedly insist upon (still) "preparing yourself" to compete for 10! OK maybe 15/hr deadly repetitve grunt-work in an Oversupplied Field !?! And plot this, from a current position where [unlike most Rich People\ufffd]
> YOU OWN YOUR OWN TIME ?!?<
{sheesh} - You have the opportunity to actually Look Around for gaps.. to ID a few places whose basic functioning demands a few persons who can Analyze a Problem ie Create a Fucking Mental Algorithm to Solve [Anything]. You have the Time.. to start collecting relevant info about Those Niches.
Fixing friends'/relatives' junk computers for-free - might give you a warm fuzzy feeling for a time. So does peeing in your pants.
You demonstrate that you are a somewhat 'Literal person' (WTF that might mean) and your imagination is not, apparently so very good on the Rockwell-scale of 'hardness' - so you aren't very good at Imagining how to laterally arabesque into New Territory. So maybe you need the services of one of those 'attitude inventory' folks -Again- only Listen this time:
In brief, to me it seems that so long as you keep your blinkers on and see tunnel-vision Only that old [IT] thing in front of your nose: you will be wasting your precious Free Time to er Innovate.. until it is All Gone.
Mental laziness I am familiar with; and I recognize it when I see it. It IS harder to examine the 'New', when you'd Much rather.. do some complex rote-thing that (for you) is EZ. Can you stay in this mode forever?
That [Box] you are not thinking-outside-of: is covered in duct tape. A box-knife is the recommended tool. (It won't work on airplanes any more, though)
Computers [The Universal Machine] may be the largest time-sink ever spawned - one can waste weeks! merely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic: which will sink with all Accounts in a tidy orderly database - to -12,000 feet negative Elevation. Then they make a movie: not about 'The Titanic'; about its Sinking. Wanna stay in that Movie?
Luck,
Ashton
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Post #115,212
8/24/03 6:55:52 PM
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Maybe I'm done for
being out of work for so long, and not keeping my MS-skills up to date with .NET, etc might be major factors against me.
I don't really know what I can do, I might not even be able to handle a job anymore. I might be on disability for the rest of my life. Maybe it is the best thing for me right now?
I cannot escape my past, not sure what former employers would say about me, not that they understood that I have an illness that limits my abilities. Maybe I can get a simple job, but not enough to support a family.
All I know is that I cannot take the road that a best friend of mine took in 1999 when he killed himself. I'm doing my best to prevent that. Not easy, but I still live.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #115,251
8/25/03 1:33:49 AM
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I guess I can't say this in 2-syllable or less words
Because "computer" has 3.
What Ashton is saying is this:
There are other ways for a smart guy to make a living than IT.
Hey, I guess I did do it.
Now, look around you. What expensive problems do you see? Which of those is solvable - no, treatable - only by the continued local application of a mind that can manage complex processes. Ignore the presense or absence of data processing equipment. As an excercise, follow the ones where data processing equimpent is not present or atr least not central.
Now go tell the guy with the problem you can help. And how your help is cheaper than not having your help.
---- Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver you turn on the windshield washer you keep going.
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Post #114,063
8/17/03 12:53:48 PM
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I know how he feels
and he should quit whining. I'm a cashier too, but I get to start at 11PM. Two and a half years ago, I was making 40K/ann, now I make 12.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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