IIRC Mahatir binM was interviewed on PBS some years back

Post #10,912 by Ashton 9/29/01 2:17:54 PM Reply	IIRC Mahatir binM was interviewed on PBS some years back for an hour or more. Enigmatic is just another word for - seconding your (everyone's?) rather shaky guesstimates about - what these folk might do.. anytime next. What for certain was the case: a subtle and smart person (not merely 'clever'). Well, my take anyway. In a way, it's almost refreshing that there remain places, groups which cannot be nicely pigeonholed, folded into some situation room's consensus for Pavlovian conditioning and simplistic manipulation. :-\ufffd As to faux pas re Turkey - For whatever reason, internationally we simply appear most often, too unsubtle to coalesce other nation groups well (except in extremis.. Saddam tries to take back Kuwait; the suicide bombers). Some think we aren't really interested except in us-us-us, lack empathy with others - eg Reagan giving Bibles to umm those prolly more intimately familiar with contents than he - but happen to have picked a different text.. Our curricula have never provided much honest discussion of religions in Murica, other than assuming that the Big C. is about the only Right one; my guess is that this has something to do with our unsubtlety (that and - the apparent loss of 'statesmanship' from our gene pool - via selective breeding for slogans over substance) A.
Post #10,938 by gtall 9/29/01 7:44:36 PM Reply	Re: IIRC Mahatir binM was interviewed on PBS some years back One of the reasons I'm in education (although I've run my own business in the past) is because Americans and foreign students need to be educated. In a way, I think that few people have a rallying cause throughout their life...a mission so to speak...a mission that animates their whole outlook. I'm a logician, I teach logic because I want students to understand how to reason effectively. I do research because I simply like the mathematics. In a sense, I've got a mission. A dentist friend of mine once told me he envied me because I come up with new stuff in my research. He, after two kids and amid a prosperous dental practice, didn't feel so fulfilled. I always envied him because he was able to be very, very good at medicine. But he didn't feel the same depth. I suspect it is because he felt the intellectual demands on me are greater than he feels. I do not think they are, but that was his perception. The point is that that old adage: idle hands are the devil's playground. If a person feels as though they are worth more than what they are doing, the mind becomes a terrible thing. It is open to manipulation, precisely the sort of manipulation a religion offers. I do not think religion is inherently bad, but I think that bad people are smart enough to use religion...even if unthinkingly...to control others simply to give themselves a sense of purpose. The person being manipulated is probably not some successful schmoe but is someone who only needs a purpose to feel fulfilled. Islam, Christianity, even the many forms of Hinduism will provide that for the person who's incapable of enough introspection to find their own way in the world. Gerard Allwein
Post #10,956 by dmarker2 9/30/01 12:09:18 AM Reply	Re: I concur with your picture of Indonesia & Malaysia Reason Suharto was in power for so long was that US interests supported him when he survived the communist assasination plot (night of the generals approx 1965) when the Indonesian communist part attemted a coup with the blessing of the then infamous president Surkano. They tried to kill all the leading generals but only half succeeded. The next 2 years saw approx 600,000 communists rounded up & executed (I previously said 2 million but must have been suffering from effects of too much coffee (Java) because I was mixing the #s up with Cambodia). These people who were killed in Indonesia at that time were mostly Chinese & included lots of innocents that some local non-communist official had a grudge against. I was in Air Force during this period & we had U2s stationed at the airbase I was on in Australia, belonging to the '57th Weather Recon Sqn' (yup great name). These U2s were used for spying mostly on Indonesia leading up to the 1965 coup. In the 1970s US provided aid to Indonesia (weapons, training & a green light) for Indonesia to invade East Timor. In 1990s when overthrowing despotic greedy dictators became a western fashion, US encouraged Suharto minions to begin a program of destabilisation as a means to prevent Islamic groups from asserting control over the country. Aceh province was the home to one Islamic movement. Mahatir is still supported as a bulwark against Islamic militancy & it is quite probable that Mahatir's attempt to destroy his former deputy PM Anwar Ibrahim, and that this attempt was really becasue this guy was so charismatic and was also pro Islamic. At the time I though Mahatir was being a bastard, but history may show he was attempting (with outside encouragement) to prevent Ibrahim from taking Malaysia down the path to an Islamic theocracy. I have no idea if Bin Ibrahim had any contacts with Bin Laden but it is possible ?. The recent East Timor incident was a further attempt to fragment Indonesia as a fragmented country is less dangerous to Islamic take over that a united one. The Islamic militants in Indonesia are certainly nasty bits of work. Cheers Doug Marker
Post #10,983 by Ashton 9/30/01 3:37:03 AM Reply	Concur with the ideas And also that, 'a theme' is a bulwark against the random emergencies as always distract. Moving from one distraction to next, may have become a pattern for many. I don't know if one can "decide to focus" though, however sensible the idea. But I'm quite sure (for myself) that teachers have been the catalyst for my major choices - only seen 20/20 later. I had the pleasure of finding again, getting together for a couple of days with my HS chem, physics teacher - and thanking him for the attention and maybe even more importantly: the freedom to explore as I chose (have the run of the place, and on weekends, etc). Only much later did I discover the rarity of my experience. I felt 'relieved' that I had the chance to thank him, to let him know what had mattered. Attention is love. Kids 'processed', due to time-$ constraints and all the other current problems of schools - have missed something vital. (Ditto when someone decides that 'music / art' is a dispensable frill.) I can't imagine a more daily demanding occupation than teaching - maybe even so fine a theoretician as Feynman would agree that his teaching was as important as anything else that concerned him (?) I also think that few possess a proper appreciation for the value to us all, of the excellent ones: who ought to be celebrated (were we as wise as the Japanese culture) as National Treasures. Believe the wonderful film with Edward James Olmos playing Jaime Escalante, in Stand By Me captures exquisitely what that Importance is like. Calculus was just the medium. Glad you are in that field. Among my deepest sorrows about the direction of Murica has been, and all along - that we value celebrities, sports figures (yes, and CIEIOs and even Billy) vastly more than 'we' respect, encourage, reward our teachers. This defect may prove fatal; it has certainly been costly re our growth towards something like a mature culture IMhO. Anti-intellectualism we may have inherited from the Puritans - but we could have outgrown it. Science was my lucky lucky, "pay the bills while enjoying your work" escape, from the vast fields of the mercantile; there again I'm grateful for the genetic? disposition in that direction. But as to an ongoing 'theme' - I believe some science folk find a sufficiency in just 'doing science' (it is at least honest! or it isn't science you're doing). Corporate 'research' is quite another matter. Some larger questions alas, don't yield to algorithms and logic can help only part way. Continuing to have questions (?) appears to be one self-test / innoculation against stagnation. (Love the 1-minute PBS videos whose theme also is, Stay Curious!. These gems are surely among the best generally-seen video work since the first, Got Milk? ads :-) Cheers, Ashton PS There may not be much actually 'new' under the local sun - but there are unlimited connections waiting to be noticed - leading towards honest work for more than just the lucky elite, whenever we have the will to move in that direction. Hope we make it, despite current fascination with toys..
Post #11,009 by brettj 9/30/01 4:08:51 PM Reply	Question about your interpretation of religion. "Islam, Christianity, even the many forms of Hinduism will provide that for the person who's incapable of enough introspection to find their own way in the world." Are you repeating what Ted Turner said, "Religion is for losers"? If so, I might remind you that around 70-80% of Americans considered themselves to be religious. Are all these people incapable of introspection? What does your logic tell you? Be careful of throwing stones.
Post #11,017 by CRConrad 9/30/01 5:39:03 PM Reply	Logic obviously tellls us... ...that around 70-80% of Americans are losers. What, you were thinking that just because a lot of people do something, it must be right? That's not logic, that's the Fly Diet argument. (if you can't take the answer, don't ask.) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #11,021 by brettj 9/30/01 5:41:32 PM Reply	I took your bait once ... ... I'll not take it twice. We'll have to agree to disagree. Peace be with you.
Post #11,022 by CRConrad 9/30/01 5:51:52 PM Reply	If you could "take my bait", I'd have to throw you back... ...in the water. That "hook" is ludicrously too big for you, boyo. Don't you fucking realise it's a charicature of a hook, not something I ever imagined anyone would bite on for real??? So I'm really not trolling; I mean every word I write. And therefore, I can't just "agree to disagree" -- all we could possibly "agree" on... Is that you are fucking WRONG. (ObLrpdUtterlyWrongForOnce: "I say, I say that was a JOKE, son! A joke!") Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #11,147 by marlowe 10/1/01 5:56:08 PM Reply	I would say no more than 40% of Americans are losers. And that there are an awful lot of atheists among them. This from a lifetime of personal observation. Yes, Brett committed a logical fallacy. But for you to point that out is the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to have confused logic with the voices in your head. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #11,157 by CRConrad 10/1/01 6:19:21 PM Reply	How DARE you criticize... ...the voices in my head?!? Don't you realize they're the only True God?!? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #11,068 by gtall 10/1/01 7:56:49 AM Reply	Re: Question about your interpretation of religion. gtall: "Islam, Christianity, even the many forms of Hinduism will provide that for the person who's incapable of enough introspection to find their own way in the world." brettj: "Are you repeating what Ted Turner said, "Religion is for losers"? No. It's the difference between a necessary and sufficient condition. For some, it is sufficient, it is those I worry about because they are then susceptible to seeing everything through religious eyes. For most of us, it is necessary, simply to arrive at any moral bearings. But most religions are intollerant of other religions, at least in practice. So how far is one to take one's religion. If it is to the extent that one begins to live in the next life before this one, then I contend that is going way overboard and leads to religious extremism. As to you reading into the statement as far as you did, I didn't intend your intrepretation. Logic has nothing to do with it. Gerard Allwein
Post #11,084 by brettj 10/1/01 10:49:18 AM Reply	Thanks for the polite response. I was hoping that I misunderstood your statement and I tend to agree with your view. The thing that really disturbed me about Jehovah's Witnesses was that they are an apocoliptic sect that hopes for armageddon so that things can get better. Me, I have always dreamed of world peace and believe that paradise can be found on earth, but only if people are tolerant of other peace loving people. Some people don't have much tolerance, religious or atheist. Apparently we share a similar view. Peace.

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