gasp

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Post #101,486 by deSitter 5/12/03 3:41:22 PM Reply	gasp -drl
Post #101,631 by bluke 5/13/03 10:04:45 AM Reply	This is what happens when the foundation sucks You can try and beautify things, but you end up with major compromises. The introduction of primitive types into Java from the start was a huge mistake. It is a classic case of a premature optimization. The creators of Java were sure that primitives as Objects would cause performance problems and therefore went with primitives. They ignored existing languages which dealt with these issues such as Smalltalk, where the VM deals with the issue, or statically typed languages like ML or even ongoing research which produced PolyJ.
Post #101,648 by deSitter 5/13/03 11:12:32 AM Reply	Oh My! How generous of them! The performance of Java is SO good due to their sacrifices on behalf of us! -drl

The awakening begins - (tuberculosis) - (140) - May 11, 2003, 06:39:09 PM EDT

Quotes from Uncle Bob - (admin) - (12) - May 11, 2003, 09:54:41 PM EDT

Maybe it's just me... - (Simon_Jester) - (5) - May 11, 2003, 10:23:42 PM EDT

Static languages make the code brittle ... - (bluke) - May 12, 2003, 04:05:02 AM EDT

History revisionism - beware !!! (IMHO) - (dmarker) - (3) - May 20, 2003, 04:09:02 AM EDT

Re: History revisionism - beware !!! (IMHO) - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 20, 2003, 03:08:49 PM EDT

Another issue was the potential popularity of a lang - (dmarker) - (1) - May 20, 2003, 06:50:22 PM EDT

Re: Another issue was the potential popularity of a lang - (JimWeirich) - May 21, 2003, 10:13:13 AM EDT

Gee...I thought it was a friendly discussion... - (jb4) - (4) - May 12, 2003, 01:14:44 PM EDT

Re: Gee...I thought it was a friendly discussion... - (JimWeirich) - (3) - May 12, 2003, 06:07:43 PM EDT

Manifest typing....a la Fortran. - (Simon_Jester) - May 12, 2003, 06:24:18 PM EDT

Thanks, Jim. Nicely put. -NT - (jb4) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 01:57:41 PM EDT

Re: Ditto - Thanks, Jim. -NT - (dmarker) - May 22, 2003, 07:59:50 PM EDT

Next experiment: try it without OO -NT - (tablizer) - May 14, 2003, 03:24:33 AM EDT

Java going in the other direction - (bluke) - (109) - May 12, 2003, 04:00:25 AM EDT

Re: Java going in the other direction - (JimWeirich) - (34) - May 12, 2003, 10:52:59 AM EDT

Smalltalk also - (bluke) - May 12, 2003, 11:40:13 AM EDT

Speaking of autoboxing - (ChrisR) - (32) - May 12, 2003, 03:28:15 PM EDT

gasp -NT - (deSitter) - (2) - May 12, 2003, 03:41:22 PM EDT

This is what happens when the foundation sucks - (bluke) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 10:04:45 AM EDT

Oh My! - (deSitter) - May 13, 2003, 11:12:32 AM EDT

According to Joshua Bloch it hasn't been decided yet - (bluke) - (28) - May 13, 2003, 09:17:50 AM EDT

This is just stupid - (tuberculosis) - (27) - May 13, 2003, 11:52:36 AM EDT

I think you missed the point - (JimWeirich) - (5) - May 13, 2003, 12:09:57 PM EDT

OK, maybe so - (tuberculosis) - (4) - May 13, 2003, 05:47:42 PM EDT

Re: OK, maybe so - (JimWeirich) - (3) - May 13, 2003, 06:13:40 PM EDT

Well in this case - (tuberculosis) - (2) - May 13, 2003, 06:21:26 PM EDT

Perhaps ... but ... - (JimWeirich) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 07:16:46 PM EDT

My point was - (tuberculosis) - May 16, 2003, 03:57:14 PM EDT

Not J-heads. - (admin) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 01:14:50 PM EDT

Smalltalk as usual is consistent - (bluke) - May 20, 2003, 04:55:14 AM EDT

Set Theory - (deSitter) - (18) - May 13, 2003, 01:15:27 PM EDT

Re: Set Theory - (admin) - (12) - May 13, 2003, 01:25:19 PM EDT

Here we go - (deSitter) - (11) - May 13, 2003, 04:33:45 PM EDT

Re: Here we go - (admin) - (10) - May 13, 2003, 04:45:38 PM EDT

Amazing - (deSitter) - (9) - May 13, 2003, 04:58:35 PM EDT

Re: Amazing - (admin) - (6) - May 13, 2003, 05:02:52 PM EDT

Re: Amazing - (deSitter) - (5) - May 13, 2003, 05:32:07 PM EDT

Wow. My first exposure to APL - (Arkadiy) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 05:51:19 PM EDT

Same as in Objective C -NT - (admin) - May 13, 2003, 06:04:05 PM EDT

Re: Amazing - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 13, 2003, 06:50:46 PM EDT

Heh. - (tseliot) - (1) - May 13, 2003, 09:03:03 PM EDT

ROFL -NT - (deSitter) - May 13, 2003, 11:09:01 PM EDT

No - (Arkadiy) - May 13, 2003, 05:40:08 PM EDT

Hey Ross, it's only a model. - (mmoffitt) - May 20, 2003, 12:54:07 AM EDT

Hey, watch this! - (drewk) - May 13, 2003, 01:27:16 PM EDT

Unlike DrooK, I'll bite: Ever heard of SQL, ya nitwit?!? -NT - (CRConrad) - (3) - May 13, 2003, 02:57:50 PM EDT

See comment above, applies here as well - (deSitter) - (2) - May 13, 2003, 04:35:44 PM EDT

Better stop talking to yourself then. - (admin) - May 13, 2003, 04:51:56 PM EDT

Your problem is the same you had a year (or was it two?) ago - (CRConrad) - May 15, 2003, 02:05:17 PM EDT

I remeber Pascal in the very same way - (jb4) - (72) - May 12, 2003, 01:25:35 PM EDT

Just had this conversation - (tseliot) - (45) - May 12, 2003, 02:09:09 PM EDT

Freep said the same thing - (tuberculosis) - (43) - May 13, 2003, 11:58:53 AM EDT

Still waiting for ... - (jb4) - (42) - May 14, 2003, 01:31:46 PM EDT

Depends on constraints - (tuberculosis) - (41) - May 16, 2003, 03:50:38 PM EDT

Platforms: - (jb4) - (40) - May 19, 2003, 09:37:12 AM EDT

Don't even get me started - (tuberculosis) - (30) - May 19, 2003, 02:04:00 PM EDT

I'll get you started, alright! - (jb4) - (29) - May 19, 2003, 02:25:40 PM EDT

No I'm not - (tuberculosis) - (28) - May 19, 2003, 02:51:26 PM EDT

The problem is, you're trying to treat a bool as a number - (jb4) - (25) - May 19, 2003, 04:43:28 PM EDT

No, I'm trying to branch on a condition - (tuberculosis) - (24) - May 19, 2003, 05:07:44 PM EDT

21st Century Schitzoid Man - (jb4) - (23) - May 19, 2003, 07:08:23 PM EDT

You are fighting the language - (tuberculosis) - (22) - May 19, 2003, 10:25:26 PM EDT

Tell you what... - (jb4) - May 20, 2003, 01:41:24 PM EDT

Can I put my oar in? - (static) - (20) - May 21, 2003, 07:50:59 AM EDT

Yeah sure - (tuberculosis) - (19) - May 21, 2003, 06:35:41 PM EDT

Such flowerly language toward such a misguided conclusion - (jb4) - (18) - May 22, 2003, 05:35:11 PM EDT

Yeah right - (tuberculosis) - (17) - May 22, 2003, 11:02:21 PM EDT

(++true == false) - (ChrisR) - (1) - May 22, 2003, 11:08:45 PM EDT

Just add a little gasoline, and stir!_____;-) - (jb4) - May 23, 2003, 09:59:45 AM EDT

OK, Now I see wht your problem is - (jb4) - (5) - May 23, 2003, 09:38:10 AM EDT

I thought you were going to give up on this - (tuberculosis) - (4) - May 23, 2003, 11:15:41 AM EDT

How sensible is this?!? - (jb4) - (3) - May 23, 2003, 06:30:59 PM EDT

Not convinced - (tuberculosis) - (2) - May 23, 2003, 11:14:34 PM EDT

Nor am I - (jb4) - (1) - May 27, 2003, 12:07:47 PM EDT

You guys should be using Modula-2. :-P (new thread) - (Another Scott) - May 27, 2003, 12:26:47 PM EDT

And an answer to your question. - (jb4) - (8) - May 23, 2003, 09:53:40 AM EDT

Wrong answer - (tuberculosis) - (7) - May 23, 2003, 11:30:59 AM EDT

Wrong answer back - (jb4) - May 23, 2003, 06:44:36 PM EDT

They've turned it into Pascal - (deSitter) - (5) - May 23, 2003, 11:10:24 PM EDT

Circular definition. - (CRConrad) - (4) - May 24, 2003, 03:25:53 PM EDT

Re: Circular definition. - (deSitter) - (3) - May 25, 2003, 02:44:12 AM EDT

Self-contradiction, and logically inconsistent definition. - (CRConrad) - (2) - May 25, 2003, 08:16:39 AM EDT

Can someone start a new thread please? -NT - (drewk) - (1) - May 27, 2003, 09:10:08 AM EDT

What for, aren't the long ones the best? -NT - (CRConrad) - May 27, 2003, 10:19:41 AM EDT

Comments on supposed idiocy - (JimWeirich) - (1) - May 21, 2003, 10:53:43 AM EDT

Re: Comments on supposed idiocy - (tuberculosis) - May 22, 2003, 11:53:06 PM EDT

Don't even get me started - (tuberculosis) - May 19, 2003, 02:05:09 PM EDT

You didn't mention types of programs -NT - (tuberculosis) - (7) - May 19, 2003, 03:06:49 PM EDT

Sorry, thot I was clear earlier... - (jb4) - (6) - May 19, 2003, 04:48:20 PM EDT

Still doesn't tell me enough - (tuberculosis) - (5) - May 19, 2003, 05:20:34 PM EDT

Re: Still doesn't tell me enough - (jb4) - (4) - May 19, 2003, 06:57:25 PM EDT

The VM's are all written in very portable C - (tuberculosis) - (3) - May 19, 2003, 10:03:08 PM EDT

Re: The VM's are all written in very portable C - (deSitter) - (2) - May 19, 2003, 10:37:48 PM EDT

Funny you should mention it - (tuberculosis) - (1) - May 20, 2003, 12:31:42 AM EDT

Re: Funny you should mention it - (deSitter) - May 21, 2003, 10:16:51 PM EDT

Minor modification - (jb4) - May 14, 2003, 01:29:24 PM EDT

Just because *you* don't see it... - (pwhysall) - May 12, 2003, 02:13:04 PM EDT

In fact.. - (deSitter) - (15) - May 12, 2003, 03:11:26 PM EDT

Heh... - (jb4) - (14) - May 14, 2003, 01:32:47 PM EDT

Re: Heh... - (deSitter) - (13) - May 14, 2003, 02:30:09 PM EDT

BS - (admin) - (3) - May 14, 2003, 02:32:13 PM EDT

BS - (deSitter) - (2) - May 14, 2003, 02:50:25 PM EDT

When I see you spouting it, I'm going to call you on it. - (admin) - (1) - May 14, 2003, 02:58:11 PM EDT

Fair enough! -NT - (deSitter) - May 14, 2003, 03:09:53 PM EDT

Do you have a clue why Linux is easily ported? - (ben_tilly) - (8) - May 14, 2003, 02:47:20 PM EDT

Re: Do you have a clue why Linux is easily ported? - (deSitter) - (7) - May 14, 2003, 03:08:04 PM EDT

No, that is not quite what you claimed - (ben_tilly) - (6) - May 14, 2003, 03:40:41 PM EDT

Well, to me -NT - (deSitter) - May 14, 2003, 03:46:51 PM EDT

Well, to me "moot" means.. - (deSitter) - (4) - May 14, 2003, 03:55:04 PM EDT

Why does your position appear to be shifting? - (ben_tilly) - (3) - May 14, 2003, 04:07:51 PM EDT

Modus operandi - (admin) - (1) - May 14, 2003, 04:30:05 PM EDT

Re: Modus operandi - (deSitter) - May 14, 2003, 05:11:53 PM EDT

Re: Why does your position appear to be shifting? - (deSitter) - May 14, 2003, 04:56:07 PM EDT

Wasn't Pascal written as a teaching tool? - (drewk) - (8) - May 13, 2003, 08:55:15 AM EDT

Yes - (bluke) - May 13, 2003, 09:03:18 AM EDT

Re: Wasn't Pascal written as a teaching tool? - (JimWeirich) - (6) - May 13, 2003, 11:15:38 AM EDT

Re: Wasn't Pascal written as a teaching tool? - (Yendor) - (4) - May 13, 2003, 11:18:18 AM EDT

Forward Declarations - (JimWeirich) - (3) - May 13, 2003, 11:48:48 AM EDT

Hmm, was Turbo Pascal different about that? -NT - (drewk) - May 13, 2003, 11:51:47 AM EDT

Been too long - (Yendor) - May 13, 2003, 12:16:32 PM EDT

Nope, you're right. - (jb4) - May 14, 2003, 01:38:44 PM EDT

Not when I learned it - (drewk) - May 13, 2003, 11:48:37 AM EDT

Same bandaid as C++ templates - (tuberculosis) - May 13, 2003, 11:38:40 AM EDT

Re: The awakening begins - (systems) - (16) - May 14, 2003, 09:55:29 AM EDT

A couple answers - (tuberculosis) - (12) - May 13, 2003, 12:43:33 PM EDT

ICLRPD - (drewk) - May 13, 2003, 12:52:05 PM EDT

Do I C another one...? - (CRConrad) - (10) - May 13, 2003, 12:58:07 PM EDT

Aren't they like seals? - (tuberculosis) - (9) - May 13, 2003, 05:25:02 PM EDT

Yes they are. - (admin) - May 13, 2003, 05:28:27 PM EDT

No - they're "almost, but not entirely, unlike" seals. - (CRConrad) - (7) - May 15, 2003, 01:47:12 PM EDT

NFC. -NT - (admin) - (1) - May 15, 2003, 02:10:49 PM EDT

Does the phrase "Splitting Hairs" come to mind. :-) -NT - (ChrisR) - May 15, 2003, 02:27:18 PM EDT

birds are feathered and hairy - (boxley) - (4) - May 15, 2003, 02:16:35 PM EDT

It's all feathers. - (admin) - (3) - May 15, 2003, 02:19:11 PM EDT

Re: It's all feathers. - (deSitter) - (2) - May 15, 2003, 02:27:50 PM EDT

Re, "PS": Yeah, sure - so, whatchathink HAIRS are?!? -NT - (CRConrad) - (1) - May 15, 2003, 02:45:10 PM EDT

Never really thought about it.. - (deSitter) - May 15, 2003, 03:26:41 PM EDT

Sometimes there aren't right answers - (ben_tilly) - (1) - May 14, 2003, 03:57:37 AM EDT

Down with Determinants! :) -NT - (deSitter) - May 14, 2003, 09:34:46 AM EDT

Please indicate what you changed in an Edit. Thanks. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - May 14, 2003, 10:04:39 AM EDT

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