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New Democrats run double filibuster
[link|http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_2163.shtml|Capitol Hill Blue]
A successful filibuster vote on Owen for Democrats will mean that simultaneous filibusters will be going against Owen and Hispanic lawyer Miguel Estrada, nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, the first time two official filibusters against judicial nominees have occurred at the same time in the Senate.

Republicans have lost four attempts to break the Estrada filibuster. If they're successful on Owen, Democrats say they're prepared to have three or even more judicial filibusters going simultaneously.

Democrats have threatened all year to filibuster against the nomination of U.S. District Judge Charles Pickering of Mississippi to the 5th Circuit.

Seems like the Democrats are developing some backbone here. Keeping the votes together to block Estrada four times is not a trivial achivement by itself. If they manage to keep two or more going at one time it will be real rough in Congress.

I'm not sure blocking Estrada is a good thing though, both sides are playing that for the partisan politics. Owens however is a slam dunk, she should never have been put forth in the first place and she was voted down last year by the Democrats. Renominating a rejected judge is a radical partisan move, one that Democrats should punish the Republicans for.

The Republicans naturally have a proposal to fix the situation, they want to ban filibusters and holds of judical nominations, and just let Bush put anybody he wants into the courts. Needless to say the Democrats are not going for it.

Jay
New Typical...
The Republicans naturally have a proposal to fix the situation, they want to ban filibusters and holds of judical nominations, and just let Bush put anybody he wants into the courts.

Typical...The ends justify the means when its their ends, but when the tables are turned and they are hoist by their own petard, well.. then they just change the rules to keep that from happening again.

Funny how the Repos were all in favor of the line item veto when Repos owned the White House, but when it was first wielded by a Demo President, it was suddenly unconstitutional.

Funny how term limits were all the rage when Demos owned the House and Senate. Now that the Repos' terms are comming up against those self-same limits, term limits are suddenly unconstitutional.

Every time I think we've reached rock-bottom, the Repos do some more excavating....
jb4
"We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's."
Simon Phipps, SUN Microsystems
New Term limit
The term limit idocy was from both parties. It was far more of an outsider pledging to only serve 2 terms, until of course he was voted in and had served 2 terms. At which point he suddenly realized the need for highly experienced people in Congress and for the good of the community would abandon his pledge. Both sides pulled that stunt.

The line item veto thing was pretty funny though. Watching Republicans that had voted for it assuming that Bush Sr. would get a second term suddenly finding reasons to object.

Jay
New There shouldn't be a need for line item veto
There should be a constitutional amendment put in place requiring each legislative act to be voted on >by itself<.

And end to pork barrel politics forever.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New You'd need one more thing:
All votes are "on the record."
After 9/11, Bush made two statements:
1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity."
2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism."

Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
New Hear! Hear! To both of you!
jb4
"We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's."
Simon Phipps, SUN Microsystems
New Aye!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I like the idea
I like the idea but it would be a hard one to put into action. The trick then becomes defining 'act' in way that can be enforced.

But heck, if the chance came up, I would support that. It can't be any worse then the current system.

Jay
New Its already the law in alot of states.
It makes the act of legislating simple and >easy for everyone to understand<

Thats why you'll never see it at the fed level.

Good old Sen Byrd from my homestate wouldn't get half his pork projects if he couldn't plug him into some completely unrelated bill.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Sorry, must disagree.
I remember the term limits arguments quite well, and while I'm sure you can find Democrats who did in fact argue for it, the numbers paled in regards to the Republican that were for it (remember there was a Democrat controlled House and Senate at the time).

In fact, I seem to recall that it was Republicans that argued that term limits were unconstitutional (for US House and Senate seats).
New Re: Sorry, must disagree.
The original term-limiter IIRC was Rutherford Hayes (Republican), who argued for a one-time six-year Presidency.

Personally, I am not in favor of term limits. While it does rid us of rotten eggs, it also prevents a great person like Roosevelt from having a truly lasting impact on our version of democracy.
-drl
New Recess Appointments
The Republicans naturally have a proposal to fix the situation, they want to ban filibusters and holds of judical nominations, and just let Bush put anybody he wants into the courts. Needless to say the Democrats are not going for it.

Randy Barnett has a better idea; he believes Bush should use the threat of recess appointments to force the Senate to start moving nominations forward. He could put out a list of possible recess appointments that include liberation and conservative judges. Just image a recess appointment of Robert Bork to the Supreme Court if a spot opens up and the Senate were to stall on the nomination.

[link|http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnett042903.asp|http://www.nationalr...barnett042903.asp]
New Federalist 67
[link|http://memory.loc.gov/const/fed/fed_67.html|Here]. Hamilton has some interesting things to say on Presidential appointments requiring Senate confirmation:

[...]

The second clause of the second section of the second article empowers the President of the United States ``to nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other OFFICERS of United States whose appointments are NOT in the Constitution OTHERWISE PROVIDED FOR, and WHICH SHALL BE ESTABLISHED BY LAW.'' Immediately after this clause follows another in these words: ``The President shall have power to fill up ?? VACANCIES that may happen DURING THE RECESS OF THE SENATE, by granting commissions which shall EXPIRE AT THE END OF THEIR NEXT SESSION.'' It is from this last provision that the pretended power of the President to fill vacancies in the Senate has been deduced. A slight attention to the connection of the clauses, and to the obvious meaning of the terms, will satisfy us that the deduction is not even colorable.

The first of these two clauses, it is clear, only provides a mode for appointing such officers, ``whose appointments are NOT OTHERWISE PROVIDED FOR in the Constitution, and which SHALL BE ESTABLISHED BY LAW''; of course it cannot extend to the appointments of senators, whose appointments are OTHERWISE PROVIDED FOR in the Constitution [2] , and who are ESTABLISHED BY THE CONSTITUTION, and will not require a future establishment by law. This position will hardly be contested.

The last of these two clauses, it is equally clear, cannot be understood to comprehend the power of filling vacancies in the Senate, for the following reasons: First. The relation in which that clause stands to the other, which declares the general mode of appointing officers of the United States, denotes it to be nothing more than a supplement to the other, for the purpose of establishing an auxiliary method of appointment, in cases to which the general method was inadequate. The ordinary power of appointment is confined to the President and Senate JOINTLY, and can therefore only be exercised during the session of the Senate; but as it would have been improper to oblige this body to be continually in session for the appointment of officers and as vacancies might happen IN THEIR RECESS, which it might be necessary for the public service to fill without delay, the succeeding clause is evidently intended to authorize the President, SINGLY, to make temporary appointments ``during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.'' [...]


Some rather flowerly language there, but I think his thoughts are reasonably clear. The Senate is intended to have an important role in deciding who sits in many appointed offices. Recess appointments should only be used in extraordinary circumstances - not as a bludgeon to try to get the other party to cooperate.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Federalist 67
Recess appointments should only be used in extraordinary circumstances - not as a bludgeon to try to get the other party to cooperate.

I agree. But I would argue we have extraordinary circumstances. Democrates seem to have raised the bar to the point where any judge that is nominated that does not meet their standard of "mainstream" (i.e left of center) justifies a filibuster and a 60 vote super majority to get the nomination thru. All the judges on hold now would get thru the senate on a majority vote if allowed to.

There's an interesting article on NRO on what would have happened to George Washington's first judicial nominee had he gone before the current Senate. [link|http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-daly050203.asp|http://www.nationalr...nt-daly050203.asp]

How far we've devolved. What was once a way to serve one's country seems now to be a one-way ticket to filibuster.
Regards,
John
New Left of center?
I agree. But I would argue we have extraordinary circumstances. Democrates seem to have raised the bar to the point where any judge that is nominated that does not meet their standard of "mainstream" (i.e left of center) justifies a filibuster and a 60 vote super majority to get the nomination thru. All the judges on hold now would get thru the senate on a majority vote if allowed to.

Left of center? The Democrats have blocked two nominations, at the same time they have let others through, none of which where "left of center."

One of the people being blocked right now is Priscilla Owens, a judge that is so far to the right and so poorly rated that she should never have been put up for nomination in the first place.

It was the Republicans that began playing these games to begin with, holding up a huge number of nominations under Clinton. But once the Republicans had a majority in both houses they decided to change the rules to let them push through as many judges as they could. At the same time, the White House decided to abandon the old policy of having judges reviewed for competence before being put forth, so they could push highly partisan judges.

And your accusing the Democrats of playing games? What they are doing is fighting back.

Jay
New Before Clinton, there was Reagan and
the [link|http://www.siu.edu/~siupress/titles/f98_titles/vieira_gross.htm|Judge Robert Bork] nomination to the US Supreme Court.
President Ronald Reagan's nomination of Judge Robert Bork to the Supreme Court met with a fierce opposition that was apparent in his confirmation hearings, which were different in many ways from those of any previous nominee. Lasting longer than any other Supreme Court confirmation battle, the Senate hearings dragged on for eighty-seven hours over a twelve-day period. Bork personally testified for more than thirty hours, outlining his legal philosophy in greater detail than had ever before been required of a Supreme Court nominee. Nor had any previous Supreme Court nominee faced the number of witnesses who testified at the Bork hearings.
The tit for tat continues to this day.
Alex

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life." -- Eric Hoffer
New And before Reagan there was Johnson and Abe Fortas
[link|http://wais.stanford.edu/us_supremecourtabefortas91002.html|Here].

Hank Greely explains the fate of Abe Fortas: "Fortas had been one of the key lawyers who preserved "Landslide Lyndon's" 87 vote victory in his 1948 race for the US Senate. Johnson used him as a trusted adviser thereafter, successfully nominating for a seat as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in 1965. In June 1968 LBJ nominated the very liberal Fortas for promotion from Associate Justice to Chief Justice, to replace Earl Warren, who had announced that he was retiring effective on the confirmation of his successor. Republican Senators and Southern conservative Democratic Senators stalled the nomination, hoping (correctly, as it turned out) that a Republican would be elected and would nominate a conservative successor to Warren. A vote to break a four-day filibuster failed on October 2 and Fortas asked that his name be withdrawn. Johnson's nomination of Fortas was not helped by the fact that LBJ nominated a Texas crony, Homer Thorneberry, a non-spectacular lower court federal judge, to take Fortas's Associate Justice seat.


[link|http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:g9uJ-xs6dtEJ:www.nevergoback.org/filibuster.pdf&hl=en&ie=UTF-8|This page] says that about 20% of Supreme Court justices have been rejected, including 2 of Nixon's.

The tit for tat continues to this day.

Indeed. There are more news outlets, and more interest groups with a stake in the outcome, so the scrutiny of any new nominee is going to be increasingly intense.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yep, but Abe Fortas was tainted more than most. :)
Alex

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life." -- Eric Hoffer
New Re: Left of center?
One of the people being blocked right now is Priscilla Owens, a judge that is so far to the right and so poorly rated that she should never have been put up for nomination in the first place.

Why do you consider her to be "so far to the right"?

Why do you consider someone who got a unanimous \ufffdwell qualified\ufffd rating from the American Bar Association to be "so poorly rated that she should never have been put up for nomination in the first place"?
New Didn't Bush give up the ABA rating and recommendation?
so, aren't you applying ABA ratings selectively now?

Isn't that hippocritical?

As for Owens, didn't the President's own counsel (Gonzales) accused her of judicial activism?
New Re: Left of center?
[link|http://www.independentjudiciary.com/nominees/nominee.cfm?NomineeID=21|Independent Judiciary]
A good short summary of Owens and her judical history. Quite simply, she is the sort of judical activist that real conservatives hate but neo-cons like. She is willing to grossly distort the law so that it matchs her political desires.

Here is one of the better known bits.
The Houston Chronicle wrote that her \ufffdinterpretations [in these cases] were generally stricter and more conservative than the majority of her all-Republican colleagues\ufffd on the court. Indeed, White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, then a fellow Justice, called one of her dissents in a bypass case \ufffdan unconscionable act of judicial activism.\ufffd1

This is the same Alberto Gonzales that now has to argue for her nomination. Which shows you just how much respect the people involved have for the court process.

Jay
New Re: Left of center?
I have to question the validity of your link. Most of the allegations in that summary are debunked in detail in the following: [link|http://www.judicialselection.org/OwenReport.pdf|http://www.judicials...rg/OwenReport.pdf].
New Interesting peice
A interesting and well written peice of work, if a highly partisan one. It will take some work to dig through it.

A quick reading suggests it is rather heavy on spin. It's section on Texans for Public Justice claims that organization is an advocay group for trial lawyers but don't back up that claim. The best they can do is point to a statement that the group has gotten money from lawyers and a statement that most of the groups money comes from liberal groups. See the end of page 3 and start of page 4.

It does contain one honest admission though.
But neither should TPJ be mistaken for an objective, impartial voice. The group's pronouncements, like those of any activist group with a particular ideological orientation, should be taken with a grain of salt.

From the looks of things, Judical Selection has a rather ideological orientation also. It is part of the Free Congress Foundation, which was founded by Paul Weyrich (of Heritige Foundation fame) and has this quote in it's about page.
Free Congress Foundation is politically conservative, but it is more than that: it is also culturally conservative. Most think tanks talk about tax rates or the environment or welfare policy and occasionally we do also. But our main focus is on the Culture War. Will America return to the culture that made it great, our traditional, Judeo-Christian, Western culture? Or will we continue the long slide into the cultural and moral decay of political correctness? If we do, America, once the greatest nation on earth, will become no less than a third world country.


Jay
New The truth is somewhere in the middle
From the looks of things, Judical Selection has a rather ideological orientation also.

As does the Independent Judiciary (just take a look at their Coalition Partners list).

I think the reality is that Judge Owens is a moderate judge with right leaning tendencies and you will find that most of the Bush nominees are the same. It was the same for Clinton; most of his nominees were moderate judges with left leaning tendencies.

Regards,
John
New Just calibrate your abscissa, is all..
In today's environment:

"left leaning" describes a moderate view (WTF *ANY* of these discredited buzz words might actually mean anymore)

"right leaning" means quite far-Right from what "right" once tried to indicate.

Actual 'Left' today, would signify to the custodians of slogan reeducation: some anarchist with a bomb, a poor understanding of Marx and.. a beard. We don't see many of those, but some see them under every bed. (And besides, that Marx dream morphed into State Corporatism pretty instantly: so was the USSR 'Left' or 'Right' ? I get so confused about these things. But hate to spoil the fun.)

Then there are the qualifiers, social- financial- religio- and the ever-amusing trying-to-be ameliorating.. compassionate- Hmm, what were *those* before the new-spin - Genghis Khan Wing? Oops.. almost forgot the Btand-new 'neo-' thingie.. Gawd Knows what that's supposed to signify, cause the rheotoric is unchanged from My Gramma's time. See what I mean about confusion?


Wonder why nobody dares run simply as a 'Moderate' anymore. Not exciting enough?




never mind,
Ashton
New Re: The truth is somewhere in the middle
Puts me in mind of the late (and now largely forgotten) novelist Peter De Vries, in his novel The Blood of the Lamb--narrator as a twentysomething speaking to Young Female Prospect: "Sometimes I think this leg is the most beautiful thing in the world, and sometimes the other. I suppose the truth lies somewhere in between."

I thought this terrifically clever when I encountered it at twelve, but when I first felt confident enough to deliver the line to a sweet young thing three years later it fell unaccountably short of the desired effect, greatly to my puzzlement at the time.

cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New ROTFLMAO
New Re: The truth is somewhere in the middle (new thread)
Created as new thread #101294 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=101294|Re: The truth is somewhere in the middle]
-drl
     Democrats run double filibuster - (JayMehaffey) - (27)
         Typical... - (jb4) - (9)
             Term limit - (JayMehaffey) - (8)
                 There shouldn't be a need for line item veto - (bepatient) - (5)
                     You'd need one more thing: - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                         Hear! Hear! To both of you! -NT - (jb4)
                         Aye! -NT - (bepatient)
                     I like the idea - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                         Its already the law in alot of states. - (bepatient)
                 Sorry, must disagree. - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                     Re: Sorry, must disagree. - (deSitter)
         Recess Appointments - (johnu) - (16)
             Federalist 67 - (Another Scott) - (15)
                 Re: Federalist 67 - (johnu) - (14)
                     Left of center? - (JayMehaffey) - (13)
                         Before Clinton, there was Reagan and - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                             And before Reagan there was Johnson and Abe Fortas - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 Yep, but Abe Fortas was tainted more than most. :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                         Re: Left of center? - (johnu) - (9)
                             Didn't Bush give up the ABA rating and recommendation? - (Simon_Jester)
                             Re: Left of center? - (JayMehaffey) - (7)
                                 Re: Left of center? - (johnu) - (6)
                                     Interesting peice - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                                         The truth is somewhere in the middle - (johnu) - (4)
                                             Just calibrate your abscissa, is all.. - (Ashton)
                                             Re: The truth is somewhere in the middle - (rcareaga) - (2)
                                                 ROTFLMAO -NT - (Simon_Jester)
                                                 Re: The truth is somewhere in the middle (new thread) - (deSitter)

"The professor in a thong"?
168 ms