Perfidious Albion (hurrah!)

Post #97,884 by rcareaga 4/22/03 12:09:21 PM Reply	Perfidious Albion (hurrah!) Airstrip One: a Dagger Pointed at the Heart of Greater Oceania! (or Look, Maw, the Brits Are Burnin' th' White House Agin!) We've previously spoken here about the possibility that the Bush junta's romps through the world might eventually provoke economic countermeasures. A Guardian commentator weighs in: The problem with American power is not that it's American. Most states with the resources and opportunities the US possesses would have done far worse. The problem is that one nation, effectively unchecked by any other, can, if it chooses, now determine how the rest of the world will live. Eventually, unless we stop it, it will use this power. So far, it has merely tested its new muscles. ... [US leaders] are simply responding to the opportunities that power presents, just as British politicians once responded to the vulnerability of non-European states and the weakness of their colonial competitors. America's threat to the peace and stability of the rest of the world is likely to persist, whether George Bush wins the next election or not. The critical question is how we stop it. Military means, of course, are useless. An economic boycott, of the kind suggested by many of the opponents of the war with Iraq, can never be more than symbolic: US trade has penetrated the economies of almost all other nations to such an extent that to boycott its goods and services would be to boycott our own. ...Only one means of containing the US remains. It is deadly and, if correctly deployed, insuperable. It rests within the hands of the people of the United Kingdom. [Read the rest at]: [link\|http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,940757,00.html\|http://www.guardian....04,940757,00.html] Whether the destructive reach of US global power would follow the US economy down the toilet as quickly as Mr. Monbiot seems to believe, I do not know, but he sketches out one interesting scenario that might follow upon our regime convincing a sufficiently large number of nations abroad that this country has come to represent a clear and present danger. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #97,886 by deSitter 4/22/03 12:16:20 PM Reply	What's it's ALL ABOUT Dollar vs. Euro as global standard - not to mention Chinee money - what's that called? Luan? as Pacific Rim calibration. The US loses everything when the US dollar is no longer the basic unit of value. Needless to say, the current approach will simply hasten that fate. -drl Light is heavy: R{} = (2R/W)T - (1/2W){D-2,D-2}W Heavy is light: (D-3)(RF[] + 5/4 g) = 0
Post #97,889 by inthane-chan 4/22/03 12:23:14 PM Reply	Yuan. This is also a big issue wrt:the underworld economy, where the US $ is held because of the large denomination bills availible combined with the high valuation of the currency itself. Supposedly 30% of all availible US bills are in the hands of the grey+black market. And some people are nervous they could transition to the Euro, due to the higher valuation bill (IIRC 1000 euro bill v.s. $500 bill is the top, but could be wrong - just know that there is a larger euro bill than $ bill) kicking the dollar out of it's place as compact and portable. Talk about a double whammy... After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism." Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
Post #97,888 by Arkadiy 4/22/03 12:22:00 PM Reply	Did you notice who started the escape from dollar? Saddam, not the brightest economist in the world. Here is what a financist [link\|http://www.investmentrarities.com/bestofjm03-31-03.htm\|thinks]. -- Inquiring minds want to scream.
Post #97,890 by deSitter 4/22/03 12:25:23 PM Reply	Think Nixon, Gold Standard Abandonment, OPEC Crisis of '73 It's not a far-fetched thing. Of course, if the dollar came home, the assholes at the helm would have to hire Americans to do American jobs. So let's hope it happens. The current direction is straight to catastrophe. -drl Light is heavy: R{} = (2R/W)T - (1/2W){D-2,D-2}W Heavy is light: (D-3)(RF[] + 5/4 g) = 0
Post #97,907 by cybermace5 4/22/03 2:12:16 PM Reply	Re: Think Nixon, Gold Standard Abandonment, OPEC Crisis of ' That also crossed my mind. Won't make much difference though: if the Europeans get their panties in a bunch and run home crying, there are plenty of other countries willing to accept dollars and employment from America.
Post #97,909 by Silverlock 4/22/03 2:31:55 PM Reply	The cheerleader syndrome. Why don't you just keep shouting "We're number one" and be done with it? It would be just as insightful and thought provoking as what you normally post. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #98,176 by cybermace5 4/23/03 10:39:41 AM Reply	We're number zero!
Post #97,910 by rcareaga 4/22/03 2:33:59 PM Reply	This just in A truly integrated EU economy would be more powerful than ours. US actions under the junta will very likely serve to accelerate that integration--and set EU policies and interests at cross purposes to our nominal own. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #98,196 by screamer 4/23/03 11:02:06 AM Reply	LMAO... United Europe? You do realise what a historical contradiction this whole premise rest upon, do you not? The author's been smoking crack. Anyone that puts any credence on this premise must be smoking crack as well. My $.02 Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #98,251 by rcareaga 4/23/03 1:21:01 PM Reply	Re: LMAO... We're not speaking here of a United Europe, precisely, but of a Europe of integrated economies, acting in concert economically in response to a perceived threat. But it seems to me that the costs of integration are merely a new representation of the paradox of sovereignty. Small states or unaffiliated tribes have, throughout history, found that the only way to prevent themselves from being overrun by foreign powers was to surrender their autonomy and unite to fight their common enemy. To defend our sovereignty - and that of the rest of the world - from the US, we must yield some of our sovereignty to Europe. That we have a moral duty to contest the developing power of the US is surely evident. That we can contest it by no other means is equally obvious. Whether Monbiot's strategy could work either on the European end or on the US end I do not know. What I do find enlightening are the many signs all over the world that people and governments hitherto disposed to cut this country some slack are waking up to the fact that they've got a rogue elephant in their midst, and are beginning to discuss whether it's dangerous enough to warrant a collective effort to take it down, and if so, by what means. We've got brute intimidation working for us now (I've read that next year's proposed Pentagon budget, if approved, will amount to more than the total military expenditures of all the other countries in the world), so no one's likely to take us on mano-a-mano, but as Monbiot has observed, our colossus stands on a rather brittle plinth. That the United States of America should be the pre-eminent power in the world, not to be bound by treaties or international institutions, unfettered in its actions, is a proposition that appears self-evident to a certain mindset on these shores, but it's less persuasive from abroad. That we needn't worry about the opinions of the rest of the world is also an attractive notion to some (and isn't it interesting that we see the beginnings of a propaganda campaign, with our beloved former House Speaker in the van, against the State Department?), but the day may come when it feels very cold and lonely indeed at the top. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #98,257 by bepatient 4/23/03 1:34:18 PM Reply	At issue... ...is the ability of Europe to actually accomplish the economic integration that they have been >trying< to to for more than a decade. The UK declined to participate and the principle members are >afraid< to extend the union to the countries that hav eweaker economies. Portugal, Turkey, the former East Block. It is a great ideal. They've, so far, failed miserably to pull it off. Further attempts to do so with the specific agenda of combatting US might may end up driving the UK into closer alliance with the US which would keep the scale slightly in our favor. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #98,464 by Ashton 4/24/03 4:17:11 AM Reply	Well.. maybe the latter. For a time. But when Rogue State becomes as familiar a term in everyday bar talk as.. football - we may well discover just how rapidly previous 'diplomatic obstacles' can vanish. Nothing succeeds like an Ogre to combat. And GW Bush appears to have already attracted a certain resemblance to the chimerical.. (nothing to do with charisma, BTW) in the eyes of more people [?] than the population of the US. There's the Symbol to rally 'round. Every time he opens his mouth in Texan threat-speak, the caricature fleshes-in a bit more. But, keep smiling.. it may all work out. Meanwhile: send pretzels and Hope. Ashton
Post #98,473 by rcareaga 4/24/03 8:43:18 AM Reply	Re: At issue... More brilliant BushReich diplomacy: The Bush administration is pursuing steps to punish France for opposing the United States on the war in Iraq, including the possibility of limiting French participation in American-sponsored meetings with European allies, senior officials said today. The measures were discussed at a White House meeting on Monday of senior officials led by Stephen J. Hadley, the deputy national security adviser. Marc Grossman, the under secretary of state for political affairs, also attended, as did I. Lewis Libby and Eric Edelman, two influential hawks on the staff of Vice President Dick Cheney. Mr. Libby and Mr. Edelman were described by some administration officials as driving forces within the group. The anger at France is so deeply felt within the administration that even Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, in an interview on Tuesday, warned that the country would be punished for taking on the United States. Asked on "The Charlie Rose Show" on PBS if France would suffer consequences, Mr. Powell bluntly replied, "Yes." ... The White House's confrontational strategy, administration officials said, is intended to try to bludgeon France into more acquiescent behavior, or at least to make it clear that the Bush administration will now only cooperate with France when it is in the interest of the United States. [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/24/international/worldspecial/24FRAN.html\|http://www.nytimes.c...ecial/24FRAN.html] As von Rumsfeld is fond of saying, quoting Al Capone, "You can get more with a kind word and a gun [bludgeon?] than you can with a kind word alone." Perhaps he and the rest of the cabal in power might do well to ponder more of Capone's career: he was brought down, at the end, via finance. The euro ploy just might work. And if the junta continues spreading fear and enmity around at the present rate, these ingredients could provide a handy catalyst for the European integration of which bp is so sceptical. A majority of the world's people are, at the least, suspicious of this country's motives. With every passing day this administration is suffered to remain encysted, more of them move from suspicion to outright hatred and fear. There will be consequences. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #98,476 by rcareaga 4/24/03 8:52:07 AM Reply	William Safire, of course, sez it's all France's fault. Find the URL for this drivel yourself, if you like, but the last line is hilarious: in their hubristic drive for dominance in Europe, combined with their grubby grab for contracts, Chirac and his poodle Putin have severely damaged the United Nations. Good thing the UN has us to look after it, eh? cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #98,499 by bepatient 4/24/03 10:45:30 AM Reply	Re: At issue... The euro ploy just might work. And if the junta continues spreading fear and enmity around at the present rate, these ingredients could provide a handy catalyst for the European integration of which bp is so sceptical. Its not just me that is [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1739389.stm\|skeptical]. The most appropriate section: In the long-term, however, the eurozone's prospects for growth are likely to be limited by "significant structural problems", says Mr Lind. In particular, inflexible labour markets - which make it more expensive to employ and lay off people - have hampered production of goods. In recent years, much production has shifted outside the eurozone from Germany to the Czech Republic and Hungary, where it is cheaper to employ workers, says the OEF's Mr Church. Minor things like common language, citizenship issues still hamper the union. Just moving to Euro currency (a full decade after it was >supposed< to happen) is not enough to threaten the US economy. As the article that was above referenced indicated, currency markets are extremely liquid...shifting currecny from Euro to dollar and back is instantaneous and has little effect..and >if< the switch to Euro raises its value versus the dollar...that is a net >good< for our economy. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #98,536 by screamer 4/24/03 1:12:33 PM Reply	Many points of agreement My initial response (or sarcastic LMAO) was in regards to the notion of Europe ever "uniting", even economically for the greater good. As the last three paragraphs of Monbiot's article clearly states, that Great Britain isn't a part of Europe yet. Here's one paragraph that I find extemely entertaining... The global justice movement, of which I consider myself a member, has, by and large, opposed accession to the euro, arguing that it accelerates the concentration of economic and political power, reduces people's ability to influence monetary policy and threatens employment in the poorest nations and regions. Much of the movement will have drawn comfort from the new opinion polls suggesting that almost 70% of British voters now oppose the single currency, and from the hints dropped by the Treasury last week that British accession may be delayed until 2010. From a historical perspective, the only time that Europe has been "united" is the brief periods after conquest (ie Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler, etc) Perhaps he is defining a unified Europe as the former Roman Empire plus the former Holy Roman Empire plus Scandivia? For a cartel to work (must I?) there must be a great degree of trust between the cartel members (I'm laughing as I type this)... ah, nevermind... I think you see my point. I can't help it, I just find it humorous. That said, what other countries can "do" about the American "problem" is to stop themselves from being bought out (lock, stock and barrel) by American landlords (major corporations). American empirialism is economic, not military. The Europeans (British not included) are only now waking up to this. It is interesting that the loudest opponents of American empirialism are countries such as Great Britain, France, Russia, etc. Former empiricist who no longer are in control. IMHO, at least part of this "anger" can be attributed to sour grapes. YMMV. We (the US) need to find a way to keep our "capitalist pigs" in line. We need to oversee who "we" do business with, even if it means pain and suffering for America. Of course, if we elect politicians who cause us pain, we will reward them by electing others who won't. If we actually refused protection for pigs doing bness in Saudi Arabia for example, a place where women are still treated as cattle, then perhaps we could have the moral high ground to insist that they change. And of course, we would have to trust that Saudi Arabia's other "trading partners" (such as France, Great Britain, Russia, etc) would do the same for it to be effective... Oh shoot, now I'm getting depressed. Just a few thoughts, Screamer All that foreign oil controlling American soil, Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed. Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings, Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and to Paris And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend. Bob Dylan - Slow Train Coming
Post #97,894 by Another Scott 4/22/03 12:57:02 PM Reply	A good read. Thanks.
Post #97,916 by boxley 4/22/03 3:15:55 PM Reply	Perhaps that would be best with the euro being the currency of choice. If the dollar fell rapidly then our balance of trade issue slides with it. Prices of imported goods would soar, other countries would find solid american investments cheap and considered safe and would pump money into our economy like the japanese and germans did in the 70's and 80's. We then buy the shit back a few years later at pennies on the dollar like we did with Rockefeller Center. Its not all bad. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #98,129 by Ashton 4/23/03 5:59:04 AM Reply	Ahhh.. Voodoo Econ - Internationale And sans spreadsheets, those confabulations which attempt to bless the Voodoo with math. Mr. Monbiot cuts to the chase: even our arsenal of nukes + 120 million maxed-out credit cards + paper-printing presses - would all go for naught, were Someone Else to take over the Concession - lock, 'stock' and debentures. And it is THIS scale of Reaction to our Stimulus, which I believed would likely follow inexorably upon, say: any old banty rooster Texas loudmouth ever! lecturing The Entire Planet, as one Did, over the past year. In the end it is the Goodwill budget which has reached bankruptcy, with not so much as a (token) 'by your leave' or "thanks for your kind words and deeds after 9/11". Nobody can miss the smirk and swagger of a bully (in several languages). I guess not many did miss. What would it take to Make It So? Perhaps -?- massive reprinting of the 1992+ Manifesto of The Project for the New American Century into all popular languages? Seems to me that, with that alley cat out of the bag; it's perfect correspondence to the bellicose and dismissive rhetoric of this Wastrel-led Cabal, the 1:1 correspondence of the BOD of that org and the Wastrel's Cabinet and cronies (plus the maudlin religiosity of the phraseology) : Would anyone like to test the effect of that reprinting & distribution, next? Ashton IMO - We Ain't Seen Nothin yet!
Post #98,141 by boxley 4/23/03 7:47:17 AM Reply	easier to rename the protocols of the elders of zion then distribute the usual channels. Ya think the world doesnt already "know" we are jew run bent on world domination? Pick up a foreign newspaper. sheesh. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #98,167 by rcareaga 4/23/03 10:13:57 AM Reply	Your obsession... becomes over time, I am afraid, almost as great an irritant, and as little contributory to rational exchange, as Norm's mindless interjections. "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #98,229 by boxley 4/23/03 12:31:39 PM Reply	just because I am obsessed doesnt mean I am wrong [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=87498\|http://z.iwethey.org...w?contentid=87498] says pretty much the same thing [link\|http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/spreading_anti_semitism.asp\|http://www.adl.org/A...anti_semitism.asp] just because you are paranoid doesnt mean no one is after you, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #98,242 by a6l6e6x 4/23/03 1:09:44 PM Reply	And my source was... that famous anti-Semitic organization the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise's [link\|http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/bushjews.html\|Jewish Virtual Library]. :) Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #98,248 by boxley 4/23/03 1:17:10 PM Reply	I was pointing out Ash's innocence thinking we have to educate the third world about these Repo designs, the second link shows they have "known" this for years. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #98,385 by Ashton 4/23/03 6:44:16 PM Reply	Yeah, that's me - the Virgin Virago
Post #98,645 by rcareaga 4/24/03 11:30:25 PM Reply	Re: And my source was... I was a tad queasy about that listing when I saw it in the referenced post, but the provenance furnished somewhat ameliorates that first impression--or is it pride for the "American-Israel Cooperative Enterprise" to enumerate these personnel, and anti-Semitism for anyone else to reproduce the same roster? cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."

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