Hey Beep, you'll hate this.

Post #96,709 by mmoffitt 4/15/03 4:25:03 PM Reply	Hey Beep, you'll hate this. I just returned from a trip to NC to visit a quite ill uncle. During my stay, I visited a very close friend whose mother-in-law (and wife) are from Germany. His mother-in-law was 14 when Hitler came to power. Here's my best recollection of what she told me: "I cannot watch this news anymore. It makes me sick. 'For what are we doing this?'. When I was a girl I went to see the idiot [Hitler] once. He was on a train and he looked right at me. I was the only one not raising my arm and my mother scolded me for it. The idiot just stared at me. He had the same stupid look on his face that this Bush does now... We all had bunkers in the backyard, but I would not go. It frightened me to be under the ground. I would watch the American planes through the window to see where the bombs would go next. Then I would run to another place. I feel so sorry for those people in Iraq. I know what having American bombs drop on you is like... I watched some news on tv here. But I had to stop. It was the same thing the Nazis were saying. Ja, exactly the same thing. It makes me sick to hear it. I cannot watch American news anymore." bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #96,716 by bepatient 4/15/03 4:44:02 PM Reply	More power to them. They can think and say whatever they want...it's a free country. And this guys mother in law should thank her lucky stars she wasn't jewish...and that scolding was all she got. Now...if we rounded up and summarily executed anyone of Middle Eastern decent...yep I suppose then we'd have something approaching the Holocaust...and you could start the Nazi comparison... ...and I suppose of we practiced brutal torture of those who dissent...by say...breaking of limbs(all of them), electrocution, possibly death...then we could even compare the Republicans to Saddam too... Then we could really start having some parties. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,718 by mmoffitt 4/15/03 4:55:55 PM Reply	I know, "just wait..." Now...if we rounded up and summarily executed anyone of Middle Eastern decent... Yeah, let's wait until we start killing them instead of just "locking up illegal combatants without charge, without notifying their families, without legal representation, without trial and without end" before we protest too much. and I suppose of we practiced brutal torture of those who dissent...by say...breaking of limbs(all of them), electrocution, possibly death...then we could even compare the Republicans to Saddam too... Yep again, we didn't do that. We only watched as Afghani "freedom fighters" buried suspected Taliban members alive in drums in the desert. Since we didn't personally do it, that's okay as well. And hey, bombing cities doesn't count either - we used depleted uranium, not nukes. And so what if there were (as reported by the Red Cross) "over one hundred casualties per hour" at Baghdad hospitals during our "shock and awe" campaign. That's different. That was war. Different from Poland, Austria, France, etc. in a way we do not need to explain because we are the good guys. You really must learn to recognize when people don't bend at the knee when they walk. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #96,720 by bepatient 4/15/03 5:13:26 PM Reply	So... ...vote them out. An option not available to those others that we are so like. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,734 by rcareaga 4/15/03 6:31:30 PM Reply	Re: So... ...vote them out Let's hope it can be done. Because if it's not a blowout for the other side next year--which seems unlikely given recent electoral history--I think this regime is perfectly capable of attempting to steal the election this time out (because, after all, Bush believes he was chosen by God to lead the American people at this crucial point in history--a belief he has repeatedly stated to members of his cabinet, and of which I'm fairly confident not a single one of his associates has ever attempted to disabuse him)--and probably capable as well of getting away with it. If they do, then we will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.* What on earth makes you think we're immune on these shores to the virus of fascism? You think as long as we're not gassing gypsies and Jews we're exemplary Jeffersonian democrats? That as long as Fox News proclaims itself the "fair and balanced" alternative to the imaginary liberal media, we have a free press? I would not be as ready as you are to dismiss the reservations of an educated European who lived through the onset and metastasis of the political cancer that was the Third Reich. If such a person tells you that she's seen the symptoms before, you should pay attention. cordially, *the words are, of course, borrowed, but oddly apropos, don't you think? "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #96,742 by bepatient 4/15/03 7:11:08 PM Reply	I do pay attention. ...and have had similar discussion. Funny thing is that most of the people I'm discussing it with do >not< mirror those sentiments. And I guarantee the folks in Gitmo still being held are being treated much nicer than my uncle was in Germany during WW2...yet what we are doing is "cruel and inhumane". I've heard the stories of Germany under the 3rd Reich from Germans still living in Germany...and while you all continue to insist we are now dealing with some "fascist regime" right here in the US...I will continue to laugh at the assertion. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,744 by jbrabeck 4/15/03 7:17:24 PM Reply	Huge difference The original comments were the actions of Bush and Co. run parallel to what was happening in 1936 Germany. Not the Nazi regime of 1940-45. When starting a cattle drive you get the main herd moving slowly in your desired direction, then start rounding up the strays. Suddenly the herd realizes that it's being moved from where they were content... [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com\|Joe]
Post #96,745 by bepatient 4/15/03 7:59:48 PM Reply	Understood And Florida was the [link\|http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa101397.htm\|Beer Hall], right?(1920s) Oh...drat...no armed stormtroopers in Florida and Bush didn't get arrested... Maybe we can compare it to Hitler's appointment as Chancellor and assumption if dictator (1934)..oops...Bush hasn't outlawed the Democrats yet...And I wonder...whether deserved or not...nobody's burned down Congress yet...and Clinton is still running around being critical...in 1935 that would earn a trip to the concentration camp (they weren't just for jews). No sir...we are nowhere near >ANY< point in Nazi regime...from inception to obliteration...protestations to the opposite noted...and rejected. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,747 by rcareaga 4/15/03 8:29:57 PM 4/16/03 11:13:14 AM Reply	Re: I do pay attention. you all continue to insist we are now dealing with some "fascist regime" right here in the US I do not make that assertion--yet. I dislike it when people throw the term "fascist" about casually--if you use it when the Zoning Commission rules against you, what's left in your vocabulary when things turn really ugly?--and accordingly thought long and hard before employing it even in the qualified sense ("the virus of fascism") that I did. In a message you posted since I began this response you persist in citing specific historical events and, finding no close analogue under Bush, dismiss the notion that this country could be heading down a totalitarian path. Congress not burned down? Obviously the Republic is sound. Clinton not in prison? Then why on earth should anyone be worried about civil liberties? Is the FBI demanding library records and bookstore receipts, to know who's been reading what? No biggie, the Nazis burned books, and we don't do that, so kwitcher bitchin. History, as Mark Twain is said to have observed, does not repeat itself, but it's been known to rhyme. Here are some thoughts from a couple of generations ago for you to gum upon: At one time my faith in America's humanitarian mission was very strong. In the last few years it has been exposed to slight strains. Instead of leading the world, America appears to have resolved to buy it--which is also a very grandiose thing after its fashion, but does inspire less enthusiasm, you know. But even under these circumstances I still remain an American patriot, a fact which is confirmed to me by the grief I feel as I observe the growing unpopularity of America in the rest of the world. The American people are not responsible for this development and do not comprehend it. Those who try to explain the reasons for it are more and more reduced to silence. We can already see the first signs of terrorism, talebearing, political inquisition, and suspension of law, all of which are excused by the alleged state of emergency. As a German I can only say: That is the way it began among us, too. But I express this warning only in a low voice, as incidentally and unpretentiously as I am doing it here, and would not express it at all if I did not believe in my heart that this great country deserves our love, our concern, and our confidence. --Thomas Mann, private correspondence, late 1947 cordially, [edits: typos, MIA words] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga April 16, 2003, 11:12:03 AM EDT Edited by rcareaga April 16, 2003, 11:13:14 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #96,749 by bepatient 4/15/03 8:59:17 PM Reply	and 46 years later... ...there are poeple here saying exactly the same thing....so if it hasn't happened in the past 46 years...why on earth would anyone think it now. And again...the term Nazi and Fascist are being thrown around with absolutely NO comprehension of what that actually entails. I bow to you for >not< doing this (yet)...for that at least shows some understanding that things were >NOT< about "popular support" until somehow Hitler magically turned evil...he was and his tactics were consistently brutal on a large scale from the very beginning. If I'm asked to right a paragraph on the next ballot affirming my belief in the US government...under threat of concentration camp...then maybe I'll start to pay attention. As it is, I see little, if any, resemblance to anything remotely Nazi going on here. Do I think that there is some strain of civil liberties going on..yes...and its quite understandable given the situation and the demands that the people have placed on this government. Is Iraq consistent with Poland. That argument has been attempted here as well. I think not. But there are those that will stop at nothing to denounce the United States and particularly this government. Thank goodness that things are NOT what they claim them to be...and that we are a free country...lest all those people end up with a number branded on theire arm (at best) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,753 by rcareaga 4/15/03 9:26:52 PM Reply	Re: and 46 years later... ...there are poeple here saying exactly the same thing....so if it hasn't happened in the past 46 years...why on earth would anyone think it now Perhaps one of my more jaundiced relatives (that would likely be on the maternal side, the Irish Catholics) looked at me 46 years ago (actually, buckaroo, it's going on 56 years since Mann wrote the cited passage, but let that go) and said, "He's so young and vigorous, and actually toilet trained these past couple of years, which makes him a lot more fun at parties: it's such a pity he has to die one day." And yet, I'm a hale and only moderately less vigorous fifty now, haven't died yet--so by your reasoning I must be immortal, hey? Why would anyone think otherwise? death-and-totalitarian-proof, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #96,763 by bepatient 4/15/03 11:06:16 PM Reply	My bad...math skills decline when hurrying... ...to post so I can put the kiddies to rest for the evening;-) I would hope..though...that you are beyond >just< being toilet-trained... And if you were still >acting< the spritely 2...>looking< the spritely 2 (you know...3 feet tall, no gray hair..etc...you might actually have people >believing< in your immortality. But lo...your behavior has probably >drastically< changed along with those years...so I don't think anyone in your family...no matter how jaundiced...would accuse you of wearing pull-ups...just in case. (that will come in another few years...then you'll have gone full-circle ;-) So...the logic might seem sound...but it doesn't quite work here. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,764 by rcareaga 4/15/03 11:23:51 PM Reply	and the nation behaves... in such a way as to depress the confidence of those who have observed it for any length of time and have formerly believed it immune to the impulses of bloodthirsty imperialism that have so reliably brought other national entities to grief over recorded history. I'm guessing that you were born between 1964 and 1972. I'm telling you that had your parents, the year you were born, been given a description of American civic life as it exists today--the surveillance cameras in public places, the random urinalyses in the workplace as a condition of retaining employment, the credit checks for the purpose of renting a house (believe me, I can well remember when this was done on a handshake)--they would have regarded these elements as components of an Orwellian hell. You take them for granted, and regard further depredations upon our former liberties with phlegmatic equanimity, because you aren't old enough to know better. I'd say that you deserve the oppression that you receive were it not that our lives unfortunately overlap. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #96,770 by boxley 4/16/03 12:15:22 AM Reply	yes another believing that communism is taking over America! The aims of Kruschev at his famous shoe banging, it is interesting that he predicted how regime like we would be after a few years of trade. Dulles salivated at what we take for granted today. Truman would hate it and Nixon would be in his element. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #96,785 by Ashton 4/16/03 4:48:30 AM Reply	Do not wake the youngish.. Zzzzzz___all in good time.
Post #96,860 by bepatient 4/16/03 2:48:07 PM Reply	No I don't take them for granted. But I'm generally really nice to people who think I'm younger than actual. You were off by one on the low side. And there are great examples of the simple degeneration of this society...not all our government's doing, either. Handshake deals went away with the rise of spurious lawsuits. Government can't act against this without being accused of infringing on >more< rights...the debate around medical malpractice and tort reform is a shining example. Yes I do wish for the time when I could trust my neighbor with my child's life...instead of living in fear that my neighbor would spirit them away and kill them like happened not too long ago in sunny CA. Is that lack of faith in mankind the government's fault? A doctor afraid to lend help in a roadside accident for fear of litigation...the American desire to be good semaritan held hostage by the freedom to sue anyone for ridiculous sums of money. Shining examples of our loss of liberty brought on by >ourselves<...not by our government. What do you expect from a society conditioning itself to believe that >NOTHING< is ever our fault. Perhaps you saw HBO last night...Inside Sports I think is the name of the program...where lawsuits were filed against >high school< coaches and refs because "my Johnny is BETTER than the others...and since you lost the game...my boy didn't get that huge pro deal". No...nothing is ever our fault...nothing is ever "life"...shit doesn't happen anymore. That is not government's doing. That is the "me" generation coming firmly into adulthood. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,761 by dmarker 4/15/03 10:49:27 PM Reply	Your point is clear & reasonable You are quite rightly asking people, when Germany gets mentioned, to take into account the deeds exposed during and later in WW2. I support the argument that says US plans for Iraqi people are far more benevolent than what 3rd Reich had in store for its subjugated peoples (a case when deeds speak clearly louder than words). I also understand what is being said when others bring up the spectre of proxy killings & mayhem that are occuring in areas of conflict that US is involved in. I firmly believe that US participants did know what those Northern commanders were doing to Taliban prisoners (esp imported foreigners) when they were loaded into shipping containers & sent on long one way journeys. What I have observed from US friends (to name a tiny few) Ferdinand Marcos, Gen Suharto, and on to Nicaragua's (Ollie North's murderous S-of-F) Contras, is that we have perfected the art of proxy murder & mayhem to new heights & can freely wash our hands of it in the eyes of the moral majority that support us. To be quite fair, the Ruskies practised proxy warring esp through Cuba. By 1939, the Nazi Germans had perfected new levels of propagandising the masses to accept what they wanted them to. Gobbels has gone down in history as a master of propaganda. At the time, few would have made an issue of his skills because at the time we didn't fully comprehend what he was achieving. History is wonderful at simplifying how the past happened. The Nazis had improved quite dramatically over earlier eras where propaganda was practised as a means to win the hearts & minds of citizenry. I have read credible assesments of how to this day we speak of the Spanish Inquisitors as bestial torturers when combined evidence tends to show it as a propaganda campaign against the Spanish Catholic throne at a time when Spain dominated Europe and ruled much of the new world (Spanish Main) and also when printing presses were a new means of spreading words to masses of people by way of posters (not all could read them but it only took one who could). Dominant evidence shows that so called 'heritics' were more brutally tortured & murdered in Germany, France & UK at the time the Spanish were conducting comparitively civilised imprisonment & trials of similar peoples. Point I ma wanting to make is that some people here are arguing that US has perfected propaganda to even more sophisticated heights than the Nazis achieved & that proxy mayhem allows us to continue to believe that 'we' are behaving civilly when others aren't. This is an issue we need to understand & deal with. Thanks Doug Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #96,765 by bepatient 4/15/03 11:25:57 PM Reply	And again... ...you mention deeds found out during and after WW2. Hitler's tactics were brutal and dictatorial from the 1920's...a point that seems to be missed by everyone who mentions the US in the same breath as Nazi Germany. Conentration camps existed long before the jews were interned in them. They were..at that time..populated will political dissenters...not jews...Germans...of all creeds...that dared question Hitler. So when do we get our chance to put Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn into forced labor camps??? At no time is this saying that the US has behaved >perfectly< in all of these situations. Be that as it may, even had we >known< what was going to occur in some of the situations that were mentioned...did the troops on the ground have the ways and measn at there disposal to handle the situation differently? What were their orders? Most likely to contain the situation and allow the locals to handle it once the objective was attained. War is not always pretty, you know. Sen Kerry would have been EXECUTED for the statements he made...well before WW2. So...rationalise away...talk about the evils of the "US regime"...but to compare it to Hitler's Germany >AT ANY POINT IN ITS HISTORY< is ridiculous. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,771 by boxley 4/16/03 12:17:17 AM Reply	eh? auto de fe was a brit term? Dominant evidence shows that so called 'heritics' were more brutally tortured & murdered in Germany, France & UK at the time the Spanish were conducting comparitively civilised imprisonment & trials of similar peoples. will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #96,783 by Ashton 4/16/03 4:23:15 AM Reply	Ah well then, I see the level which must be reached before.. You might perceive anything to be slightly amiss: it will have to follow the same script or - it can't possibly lead to a similar confiscation of power. Of course! I missed that requirement. In that earlier scenario - The annihilation of Rohm (et al) in the Night of the Long Knives in ~ mid-'34 seemed to mollify the existing military officers, settling finally the role of the thug-like Brown Shirts. The industrialists who had financed the rise of the National Socialists - counted upon the Army's power and traditional values to counterbalance the excesses evident in Hitler's rhetoric. By the time that the Reichswehr's oath became a personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler, the consolidation of power was complete. IG Farben et al - were merely ancillaries to the One True Power. No legions for the Corp (not then, anyway..) Perhaps the frequent Unser Gott's! were not phrased exactly as recent words from our present Anointed One, but the parallel of frequent refs to theological concepts like Evil/Good [and no doubt Who represents Which] and For US or Against US.. all while Leading a Godly Crusade -- can hardly escape the notice of those who have suffered a er 'liberal education'. Damn; that L-word Again! Well, in no time at all, we'll see who dares to use That one.. (And besides.. US oaths of Allegiance '03 generally point at The Constitution and not The Prescott Bush Clan - so surely there's no overt problem with the wording. Surely.) Do I think that there is some strain of civil liberties going on..yes...and its quite understandable given the situation and the demands that the people have placed on this government. Ah indeed.. there IS this little problem of the suspension of civil liberties of US Citizens who happen to.. potentially maybe be suspects [of something unspecified]; all accomplished without -quite- -yet- needing to formally abandon the illusion of habeas corpus. Small details, these pesky 'suspensions'.. Comforting to hear that you can understand their necessity. Surely it's for our comfort and security - as will PATRIOT-II also be. Right? Ha Ha - just kidding. We're all Lumberjacks and We're OK! Is Iraq consistent with Poland. That argument has been attempted here as well. I think not. Why.. no, not comparable at all. In Hitler's mind, Poland was a "direct threat" to Germany's borders. In the mind of Bush and The Project for the New American Century Iraq was a direct threat - an ocean away. Hitler had a list of others on his Axis. Bush has a list of others on his axis. Both lists were/are apt to vary with the weather.. (but not much with the opinions of any other persons in the world). Nope, no comparison at all, there. Relief is palpable. Apparently.. the joke was on Hitler! ..it was the Allies who dubbed him part of an Axis of Evil before he could latch onto the name 'Allies' and call US the Axis!!. (No such problem today: We Know who the Good Guys are.. And we went first! Again!) Of course, our 'Allies' are umm "a coalition of the ~~coerced~~ sorta willing" - which has less of a Ring to it. No matter. Stay comfortable... we still have some Rights left to barter: National ID cards and travel permits haven't been added-in to the Poindexter dbase of All dbases and .. we can always rely upon our Courageous Representatives to keep hold of the purse strings - and engage in meticulous debate over the loss of each Right! (except when a bunch are all lumped-together, of course -- like PATRIOT-I). Surely they'll rise to the occasion Next Time, as for PATRIOT-II. Surely. Then too.. there was no Tee Vee in '30s. Now there is. I wonder who owns it. Hmm - will we actually see ECOM-CON - just like the movie ?? (Surely though - May is too soon..) Stay really comfortable there; stress is so enervating - and there's just so much going on that's much more Interesting. Ashton
Post #96,807 by rcareaga 4/16/03 9:51:42 AM Reply	Patience is indeed indicated. Don't sneeze. Ashton is never less than eloquent and witty, and when he takes the time to focus he is also a quietly lethal polemicist. It's a privilege to be aligned with your Axis of Gleeful, sirrah! respectfully, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #97,111 by Ashton 4/17/03 5:20:36 PM Reply	Axis of Glee LLC, Discorporate Div. Thanks for kind words, though I've almost concluded that political-orientation is instilled ~ as the Jesuits describe their well known model for the art of Inculcation - - - Hell.. suppose it's in the ... DNA! Besides, I feel a pundenda coming on The GRR [Great Rotating Rod] has many stealthy subsidiaries, though the A of G is not among them. If one combines the slippery slope (an inclined plane, natch) with the prospect of going round in circles - one gets The Oily Screw.. sorta like, when one follows the Boolean mind of the Project for the New American ~~Century~~ Capitalist Hegemony to its root, deep in the reptile brain -- located near the famous Asshole-of-Humanity and just aft of The Fundament of Felicitous Fascism. (Compassionate Conservatives will understand the ontology) This Screw business is basically [Gawd I hate that phrase] a Boring-job, we see. But bore on and you can sometimes let some pus out. {Eeewww; "It's a dirty job but.."} Anyway... Welcome a-bored! You pass the entrance requirements: Frequent-Friar (er. we spel it -Fryer) Awards for pithiness beyond the call of de-obfuscation. Also - a few gray hairs are required; one has to have waded through a certain amount of Historical Shit -up to the chest, at least- to qualify, as.. Googling is Never Enough. (Though it Is Popular, and saves the trouble of experiencing.) A certain uneasiness within crowds carrying verbal torches, and exuding that familiar cachet we associate with leaky-bowel syndrome (but it seems to emanate from the head area..?) Why.. there was once a frequenter of the pre-IWE fora.. They Called Him Shitferbrains, because of the similarity to his er name. {sigh} Cruelty.. thy name is ascii. There is no aquatic ceremony involved nor is any theological alignment impertinent unless of course, one has selected during initiation rituals -- [1] Holy-lobotomy. (over [2] HolyNutzo-circumcision or [3] HolyShit!-clitoridectomy) Your Discredit Card will be in the male. (Warz-R-US gender) Ashton Long May The Screw* Wave !!* Registrar Emeritus of Rapscalions, Sigmoid : Division ( : Powell - early candidate but.. drummed outta the Corps; epaulets ripped off and sabre broken - due to viral brain infection of the dread -and inarticulate- Prescott Bush STD) The Thousand Year Reichian-therapy Disneyland Clock-plate of Quayle Not Available in Stores
Post #96,822 by bepatient 4/16/03 11:16:59 AM Reply	Ah yes.... ...and we'll all be goose-stepping to "Springtime for Hitler" before this is all over, right? We elect representatives to >represent<. They are doing just that at the moment. This type of government doesn't sit well with those who get outvoted and/or outpolled. Ask smokers. Our government is also reactionary. And a certain amount of overreaction to the destruction witnessed on our shores is understandable, though I see you content to deride for the ability to comprehend it (as usual). I am also "comfortable" that the egregious examples of over-reaction will be fought back and won by the civil libertarians, in the Courts using the due process that was designed into this Constitution. It has happened before...why would I not be comfortable to see it happen again. It will take a cooling period which you seem to think will never come...opting instead to believe us spinning into the realm of brownshirts, death for dissent et al. And again with Hitler "rhetoric"...believing all blind to his >proven< actions long before his rise to Chancellor. But then again...we have been known to re-elect liars and criminals as well, haven't we...being such a forgiving lot...so maybe we will..after all...begin to salute Heir Bill or Heir Marion for fear of our lives or livelihood. Just look at what happened to poor old Tim...soon to be destitute because his Bull won't be revisited by the Boys of Summer this year. (Mind you I agree with Mr Robbins and will not be attending any ball games in the near future...though not feeling this rises to the jackboot level just yet) And in the future...I guess we'll need to make sure that all candidates are atheists...and we'll need to strike certain words from the dictionary...lest they offend all those with the "liberal" education any longer. That would be suitable, also, since it seems that would put the vast minority in charge...which would allow that vast minority to make sure that the >representative< government would no longer represent "We the People"...but would have fallen to "We the Actors" instead. Ah yes...we are headed down that path... I feel a breeze...must be that hurricane a-blowin...can't be nothin else. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,828 by Silverlock 4/16/03 11:36:26 AM Reply	You missed one thing Beep Quite a few of us have this silly notion that the election was stolen. And you can forget those stupid chad arguments. The 90,000 plus eligible voters scrubbed from the rolls by the republicans carried the day with the Supremes voting against their stated previously held positions being the capstone. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,829 by bepatient 4/16/03 11:42:11 AM Reply	Nope... ...just waiting for those who stole it to dissolve the checks and balances...or maybe burn down Congress...precedent has been set, you know. Zeig, baby. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,832 by Silverlock 4/16/03 11:50:10 AM Reply	I don't get you People are genuinely concerned at the direction this country is taking under this administration. They see parralels to fascist regimes. You discount these feelings with ridicule, calling them baseless because not all of the atrocities that were committed by these fascist regimes also have parralels. Are you truly happy with the Government we have? You don't see any drift towards totalitarianism? All is just hunky-dory in the land you live in. I don't think I live in the same land. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,843 by bepatient 4/16/03 12:56:56 PM Reply	Lets state it simply. People who claim to see that drift have NO IDEA what it is that they are comparing against. One here seems to understand my point...and pointed out quite eloquently why he is concerned but will NOT go to the lengths of comparing this "regime" to Hitler's Germany and the Nazi's. It is my opinion that those who do have >no idea< what they are talking about. No I am not totally happy with the government we have. I would, however, take this one over any other one in existance today. I also see a governmental over-reaction to an event with only one precedent in our history (protestations to the opposite noted and rejected)...and if you were actually cognizant of that history you might even notice MORE parallels with post Dec 7 USA...as opposed to this crusade to have Hitler and GW Bush mentioned in the same breath. The massive violation of civil liberties post Dec 7 were eliminated. Why would we have any reason to believe this any different a moment in our history. Are y'all really that dense? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,847 by Silverlock 4/16/03 1:20:14 PM Reply	Again with the ridicule Why so defensive and hostile? The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,854 by bepatient 4/16/03 1:53:53 PM Reply	Hostile? Did I swear or something? Defensive? If my sentences seem shorter and shorter, maybe I'm just trying to make it simple...so that perhaps those who are determined to misunderstand me cannot possibly do so. I am a little tired of the comparison, though, so my normal light-hearted banter may be a tad more pointed...but..after all...alot of these threads would be terribly short if we imposed Godwin on this board. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,889 by rcareaga 4/16/03 6:09:45 PM 4/17/03 2:26:25 PM Reply	Re: Lets state it simply. I am not totally happy with the government we have. I would, however, take this one over any other one in existance today Is this a conclusion you have arrived at after sedulous study of all other extant governments and analysis of their failings and virtues vis-a-vis our own, or do you just, like, kinda know that Ours Is Best, just like they've been telling you since you got your milkteeth? --And speaking of that, since the notion that they've got the Bestest and Most Wunnerful Society in the Whole World is one you'll find in many another land, and since, because there can be only one B&MWS in the WW, the rest are obviously lying or deluded--why, isn't it splendid that you live in the One True B&MWSitWW, God's favorite nation-state hands down, the only place where trusting schoolchildren can be told Ours is Best with a straight face? Hey, I live here, and it's a pretty comfortable gig--I know the language and enough of the customs to get by (actually, now I think of it, I feel a far sharper sense of regional loyalty--to the Pacific Coast, specifically--than I do to the larger geographical and institutional entity of the One True B&MWSitWW)--but just because the country's fitful progress toward authoritarian dystopia throughout my life has been on the desultory side for much of that period doesn't mean I don't wake up and smell the Zyklon-B when a regime that took power by thuggery and fraud starts looking to put that progress on a systematic basis. You keep returning to your rather touching faith in the supposed homeostasis of the system: "The massive violation of civil liberties post Dec 7 were eliminated. Why would we have any reason to believe this any different a moment in our history?" Wrong question, really--most of us wonder what possesses you to imagine that the two moments are significantly similar beyond the single element of a surprise attack on two very different societies. Actually, I'd be well content if, remembering this exchange in a decade's time, I concluded that I'd been mistaken in my concerns. But at this moment in our history I am persuaded that the institutions and traditions in which you place so much faith are far less robust than you suppose, and that the United States of America could very easily be transformed in the blink of an eye, historically speaking (one more rearrangement of a major metropolitan skyline would do the trick, I'd judge, and just because this lot doesn't fire its own Reichstags doesn't mean they wouldn't run with the opportunity), as radically as its old nemesis the USSR--which, as you may remember, looked for most of the postwar period to be a permanent part of the landscape. People have been reaching back to the Nazis by way of comparison not because they believe the Bush junta will slavishly follow the Feuhrer's playbook, but because they serve as one recent example of how a democracy is infected, subverted and overwhelmed by a cabal. That the trappings of the putsch may not be Bavarian, that the spinmeistering is infinitely more sophisticated, is cold comfort to a clear eye. cordially, [edit:typo] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga April 17, 2003, 02:26:25 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #96,905 by bepatient 4/16/03 7:35:19 PM Reply	What is it with this crew? I've a Masters in International Business and have lived in over a half dozen and studied vastly more of the governments on this planet. I just know ours is best :-/ I've lived with National ID cards. Police armed with automatic weapons. Free nationalized healthcare (and a deviated septum to show that you do..in fact...get what you pay for) etc... This country is not perfect. Perfect does not exist. There are countries that handle certain aspects of the entire package >better< than we do. But when you put the entire package together, this is the place to be. And I suppose...if Greg's server holds out for the decade...that I would relish the opportunity and freedom to discuss this with you and disagree with you all over again :) Just like I do now. And I would love to be so optimistic about the motives of others in search of a comparison point...I'm just not. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,923 by boxley 4/16/03 10:11:33 PM Reply	well having batted about from souk to shantytown from cribs to mansions on all continents I choose this country. Now if I was in like flynn with the ruling class of certain regimes around I might like them better but for an average Joe with no pull the USofA offers the most freedom I am likely to get, and it is a dam small portion of what I require. I love the deep south, the mountains and Grass Valley in CA. Nevada is sweet and so is Miami during the daylight with heavy shades on and the car doors locked. The Bronx is interesting and Pine Ridge Rez is way cool. Alaska of course is tops but so is Florida in its own way. Love the whole dam thing I guess and have for most of my adult life. Just have to keep howling at the injustice offered by all segments of this society. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Carpe Dieu
Post #97,143 by Ashton 4/17/03 7:14:34 PM Reply	No real estate complaints - we got it really cheap, at first
Post #96,911 by Ashton 4/16/03 8:47:40 PM Reply	Your projection may, of course prove correct. Who could give 'proves' ?? We may indeed cap the agenda of the PFTNAC crowd and send them back to.. wait for the next opportunity to swamp the T-cells with a High Fever. We may accomplish this despite the Me-Me-Me group's virtuosity at remaining oblivious to all But mememe; do so in spite of <half of Registered Voters actually voting (what % of Registerable, then?). Might see the pendulum swing .. just All on Its Own. I guess. I still believe in Wonderfulness, too - but only between or among consenting adults, inevitably both informed and possessing working imaginations via living authentic lives - not edjaKayted for McLives circumscribed by The Mall. I can appreciate your faith in the automatic triumph of Wonderfulness over the pernicious and craven. This is an attitude we see it is right to inculcate in children, especially: it gives a nice referent until they can manufacture their own compass. Alas, I find that I cannot invest that degree of Wishfulness as approximates, say - the PFTNAC membership suddenly deciding that a New Century for The Entire Planet ..has a better ring to it than -??- Mine. All. Mine. I've also heard it said that, comfort is a Drug. But what do they know. Ashton
Post #97,036 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 12:46:48 PM Reply	You said that twice, and I just don't smoke that much crack. People who claim to see that drift have NO IDEA what it is that they are comparing against. YOU know better than people who personally saw and lived through the rise of the Third Reich? Even you can't be that pompous. Unless, you're actually William Kristol. Are you? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,050 by bepatient 4/17/03 1:43:48 PM Reply	Maybe you should start then. While I have not discussed GW's stupid look and asked for a comparison to Hitler's stupid looks with these people, I guarantee that Georg (whose home I lived in for several months) would laugh at the assertion that the US is becoming anything at all like Hitler's Germany. So...maybe gramma was right about the likeness of the stupid looks. I'll stick to the "no idea" statement for everything else. Maybe his view was a little jaundiced though...since his family got a little more than a "stupid look" for not saluting. They just started disappearing. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #97,056 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 2:26:44 PM Reply	Maybe you should learn to read then. From the very first post in this thread: "I watched some news on tv here. But I had to stop. It was the same thing the Nazis were saying. Ja, exactly the same thing. It makes me sick to hear it. I cannot watch American news anymore." Let me explain this to you in single syllabled words: "This is how it starts." And that's not from me, that's from some one who was there. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,061 by admin 4/17/03 2:42:03 PM Reply	My German expatriot is better than yours, nyah. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #97,068 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 3:04:18 PM Reply	No, mine's better. Yours worked in the camps. ;-p bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,107 by bepatient 4/17/03 4:42:47 PM Reply	Whatever you say, my friend. I've no doubt of what she said. I trust your account of her statements to be accurate. I honestly do. And I'll gladly eat my words when some opposition leaders vanish or Congress burns down. And I know that everyone here tries to say that "that was later...they were "fine" in the beginning. They were not. They captured and maintained power with violence. They then erased the opposition and vilified the jews...and ended up killing quite a few of them. Yes..that part came later...but not much. This is not to say that there are not elements of the "classical" definition of fascism present >everywhere<. David Duke was just in the news. The radical isolationism espoused by Buchanon and the religious right qualifies as borderline fascism. And I also recognize your belief that the war in Iraq was baseless. Thus, the vilification of the Iraqi regime could be viewed by you as fascist. No issue there...difference of opinion...maybe...but your opinion could translate as such. But the National Socialists in Germany are a different breed and I maintain that we are not, nor ever will be comparable. >that is and will continue to be my position<. Had we rounded up EVERY muslim in the US in response to 9/11..and then started a national campaign to blame them for everthing from homelessness to bad economics...hey...we'd be closing in. [link\|http://www.brookes.ac.uk/schools/humanities/staff/FAECRG2.htm\|Fascism] If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #97,120 by mmoffitt 4/17/03 5:39:39 PM Reply	The price is vigilence. I have never, nor will I ever, defend Saddam Hussein or his politics. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that I had. No one was more repulsed when the Reagan/Bush administration blocked efforts at sanctions for the gassing of Kurds, our sales of weapons to the regime (also under Daddy's watch), Rumsfeld's photo-op's with Saddam, Gillespie's "green light" and perhaps worst of all, our own Undersecretary of State telling Saddam that he was "the leading force for moderation in the region" and that we wanted closer ties to him. I'm sure back then, like all good Republicans (if you were old enough) you were defending Saddam Hussein. No, we didn't round up "all muslims". But surely you remember the "rounding up of Muslim students" to "just ask them some questions" on the heals of 9/11. Others have pointed out similarities to fascist policies in this thread (Ashton's contribution (as usual) is perhaps the best) to our propaganda efforts, intolerance of dissent, equation of questioning to anti-Americanism, etc. My position is that it may well be argued that the difference between us today and Germany in 1938 is one of degrees only. If we wish to maintain some resemblence to what is outlined in our own Constitution (that is, what is left of it), we cannot afford to "just trust that everything will be/is okay." No, we are not Nazis, ..... yet. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,137 by Ashton 4/17/03 6:53:53 PM Reply	Nobody ever expects___THE SPANISH INQUISITION__[!]
Post #96,845 by Arkadiy 4/16/03 1:01:39 PM Reply	We sit in a boat in New York harbor. The current starts to push the boat apprximately due South, very slowly. I turn to you and ask: "You don't see any drift towards Brasil?" -- It made Ketchup! Sweet Ketchup! Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger, Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder! Sweet Ketchup. --Tom Paxton.
Post #96,849 by Silverlock 4/16/03 1:20:54 PM Reply	Cute Meaningless, but cute. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,850 by Arkadiy 4/16/03 1:23:39 PM Reply	Could you pick a more realistic destination, then? -- It made Ketchup! Sweet Ketchup! Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger, Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder! Sweet Ketchup. --Tom Paxton.

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