Well, here's the dilemma then.

Post #95,743 by cwbrenn 4/10/03 11:56:42 AM Reply	Well, here's the dilemma then. I did not support this war... and I still do not. My reasons for opposing the war had to do with means, not ends. But... ... here's the thing. If the Iraqi people really are overjoyed that Saddam has been overthrown, then in the end what value is my protest? If I said to an Iraqi citizen "sorry, you should still be living under Hussein now, the US cannot go around invading countries simply because it wants to and it did not provide enough justification for its actions, it behaved irresponsibly," and the Iraqi citizen said "screw you, we were living in terror, the US got us out," well, I'd have to admit the Iraqi citizen would have a point. At what point does my protest over procedure interfere with doing the right thing? This is assuming, of course, that the majority of the Iraqi people have the same attitude that the celebrating ones in Baghdad have. But I find myself in a stange position here. I consider the way the US got into Iraq irresponsible, and that it set a dangerous precident for future conflicts. I'm concerned that the current adminstration feels all that is needed to start a war is to say "we really think we should, and we have good reasons" and leave it at that. I'm appalled by the way they kept trying on one argument after another, to see which would stick best with the people and the world community. But still... I'm not sad to see the Baath party go down. If Bush sticks to his rhetoric, Iraq might have a chance at a free country. Can I honestly say that would be a bad thing? That doesn't shake my belief that the US is forming the beginnings of a foreign policy stance that should not be taken. And I've never believed the ends justify the means... but, again assuming that what we see on the TV is legit, can I completely discard the ends? I don't know. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #95,745 by boxley 4/10/03 12:00:24 PM Reply	not at all for without powerful dissent those in power would trammel us all into the dust even quicker than they are now. The Iraqi on the ground may disagree with your stance but without your voice along with many others we would be living in a Sadaam like regime ourselves. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,759 by screamer 4/10/03 12:40:27 PM Reply	Damn it. Stop it. You write: I'm concerned that the current adminstration feels all that is needed to start a war is to say "we really think we should, and we have good reasons" and leave it at that. I'm appalled by the way they kept trying on one argument after another, to see which would stick best with the people and the world community. But still... I'm not sad to see the Baath party go down. If Bush sticks to his rhetoric, Iraq might have a chance at a free country. Can I honestly say that would be a bad thing? Bold added by me... To save server space, check my post from yesterday at [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=95409\|http://z.iwethey.org...w?contentid=95409] I would like to take issue with you on your statements that I bolded. Bush does what he says... PERIOD. (up to this point! ;-)) I would direct you specifically to his quote But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will.* (Applause.) Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens. Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people's hope for freedom. Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens -- leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections -- then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world. States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic. We will work closely with our coalition to deny terrorists and their state sponsors the materials, technology, and expertise to make and deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will develop and deploy effective missile defenses to protect America and our allies from sudden attack. (Applause.) And all nations should know: America will do what is necessary to ensure our nation's security. We'll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons. (Applause.) bold added by me... This was his State of the Union in Jan 02. I would propose that maybe you might still be in denial about how America has changed since 9/11. The president isn't nor has he deviated one iota from what he says... Perhaps the dissonance you feel is self created? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever*
Post #95,773 by Simon_Jester 4/10/03 1:18:49 PM Reply	You mean like asking the UN for a vote?
Post #95,777 by screamer 4/10/03 1:23:39 PM Reply	No, like asking them for a SECOND vote... He clearly states that we will not wait... Point? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,780 by Simon_Jester 4/10/03 1:27:36 PM Reply	No...(ahem) he clearly stated he was going to ask for a vote Want me to pull the logs on this one? I can. Go back and check.
Post #95,800 by screamer 4/10/03 2:17:07 PM Reply	You can if you'd like, but it's not necessary for this discussion. My premise is that Bush does what he says. He clearly stated in January 2002 "But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will." I think he pretty much sums up what the US just did... You? His taking this to the UN for a second resolution was politically foolish, as it is clear that some of the nations were not about to be anything but "timid". By the way, [link\|http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html\|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html] Motives? Pacifism? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,804 by Silverlock 4/10/03 2:27:28 PM Reply	Bush does what he says. "I will serve my full committment to the Air National Guard." "I will protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." "I will get Osama, dead or alive." "I will find the Anthrax killer" "I will support the rebuilding of Afghanistan" on and on......... Nice record he has. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #95,809 by boxley 4/10/03 2:37:52 PM Reply	:) what record I swear she said she was 18 will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,814 by screamer 4/10/03 2:45:13 PM Reply	Do better than that... if you must. The only one that is valid (not a matter of time or interpretation) is the first and that was a quote from long, long before he became pres... Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,820 by Silverlock 4/10/03 3:01:44 PM Reply	You are wrong No other proof needed. My assertion is all that matters. (turnabout is fair play after all) The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #95,854 by Simon_Jester 4/10/03 4:30:52 PM Reply	<Chuckle> Your choice... You can if you'd like, but it's not necessary for this discussion. My premise is that Bush does what he says. He clearly stated in January 2002 "But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will." I think he pretty much sums up what the US just did... You? I agree with you that he said he was going to handle it if no-one else did so and he has. My disagreement (and my example) was that "Bush does what he says". My counter-example was he's Press Briefing on March 6, 2003 Let's see here. Elizabeth. Q Thank you, Mr. President. As you said, the Security Council faces a vote next week on a resolution implicitly authorizing an attack on Iraq. Will you call for a vote on that resolution, even if you aren't sure you have the vote? THE PRESIDENT: Well, first, I don't think -- it basically says that he's in defiance of 1441. That's what the resolution says. And it's hard to believe anybody is saying he isn't in defiance of 1441, because 1441 said he must disarm. And, yes, we'll call for a vote. Q No matter what? THE PRESIDENT: No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam. [link\|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/print/20030306-8.html\| White House Press Briefing ] By the way, [link\|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html\|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html] [*] Motives? Pacifism? Who knows, who cares? You made the statement that Bush does what he says he's going to do. I provided a counter-example. Now you're trying to change the subject.
Post #95,891 by boxley 4/10/03 5:59:24 PM Reply	he didnt say when he will call for a second resolution he might call for one any day now, however the wording may have changed. :-) thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #95,892 by Another Scott 4/10/03 6:02:55 PM Reply	Ha!
Post #95,898 by screamer 4/10/03 6:13:46 PM Reply	Okay, you got me... I'll concede. What I'm getting at, more precisely, is that Bush has been crystal clear and succinct in his statements regarding Iraq. I think that most of the "noise" regarding the build up and execution of the Iraqi war was created by the media and by his pundits. He really hasn't deviated any of his positions since 9/11. I think (not verifiable) that 9/11 profoundly changed his and most Americans world view. His "let's roll" comment struck at the heart of me, a former "if it feels good, do it" er. I interpret this to mean, "actions speak louder than words". In my heart of hearts, I have the same fears that you and cwbrenn have expressed. But I don't fear our government or our president... not yet. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,933 by Ashton 4/10/03 10:47:58 PM Reply	But then, every 'fanatic and bigot' too - has "the courage of his convictions". Isn't that what you are saying in apologia for the record of this same Bush? re the Constitution (a matter not addressed in your paeans of admiration for his 'record) ie Everything which has occurred on his/their watch, to date. re the daily altering 'reasons' why.. an EMERGENCY! EXISTS [SUDDENLY] - which requires the unilateral launch of a first-strike against another sovereign country. No matter what anyone else in the world thinks. [Implicit: don't bug me with details: I Know What I Want .. and here are another few new reasons today, why It's Good for You.] I am so glad to hear that you do not fear our President; I may only postulate that somewhere in your reasoning is an allowance ~ "he's not bright enough to get us in Real trouble because: We Are the Most Militarily Powerful Country Inna Worl\ufffd". [? ?] Perhaps you would fear the brain trust behind him - you've read about the Project for The New American Century, I trust [?] and noted the common roster there and in this President's cabinet. Doubtless you are aware of the omnipresence (from Texas-win onwards) of one Karl Rove? have also noted one William Kristol? etc. They're all 'on board'. OK then, if not fear, will horror do? I dunno Dan.. s'wonnerful to Trust Someone. I've found though, that it's a lot more satisfying if you can also respect [him/her + camp followers]. And in this case, camp followers == actual brains 'speaking'. (We dare not digress to the other overlapping category - that of Christian Fundamentalism with emphasis on Revelations: all taken literally by the aforementioned Leaders of the 2nd Biggest Nuke Arsenal extant.) Doverai ni proverai, Gospodin Ashton "A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor." -- Hunter S. Thompson
Post #95,945 by screamer 4/10/03 11:47:46 PM Reply	At the risk of stating the obvious... we have a serious disagreement here... I understand your cynicism. Hell, I even share most of it. But I'm not willing to take it as far as you seem to. My mom used to say that water is mostly air in reference to the glass being half empty or half full. I know I may be missing a bunch and I truly trust your intellect. That said, I still feel that you may be part of a counter-cabal of hubris (spelled correctly - thank you :-)) That you have become a member of the armchair warriers and nattering nabobs of negativity. You don't want to give this guy a chance... I joined the service before going to college. I thought it was my turn, my duty. There has always been something a little wrong with me. I'm guilty as charged. I also have young kids, which makes me yearn for a better world and why I won't shed any tears for repressive dictatorships as they fall, by American and British hands or by others. I know a lot of what's happening now is the sell, sell sell as do you. It is our culture. It is propoganda. But I do believe - still - that regarding the war on terrorism, this administration is acting in my best interest and my children's. YMMV. This mess in Iraq was unfinished business and if we had adopted yet more appeasement as policy, my children would have inherited the burden of this mess with interest. So, yeah, I'm selfish too. Witness the prowess of the UN handling the Yugoslavia situation. So maybe I think I have choose the lesser of the two evils? It's easy to sit back and criticize others, doers... Believe me, I work at a major university and see it every day. It's hard to make decisions, even wrong ones, and follow them through. What was the UN's "plan" for dealing with Hussein? Oh, that's right... let's just keep doing what we've been doing and pay much more lip service. That'll bring down a fascist regime. Fucking joke, man. Come on over to the dark side, brother... the glass can be half full. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,956 by Ashton 4/11/03 1:44:21 AM Reply	Yours is a fair cop. And may even 'succeed' - if enough people remain alert to the man ^h men! behind the curtain and their published plans for us all. My supposition is that you aren't up for an Empire for your children to 'maintain 24/7' either. We seem to disagree mainly on: the probability we shall get one anyway. I look at peoples' physiognomy.. eyes, body language - in addition to the words, when they speak. It isn't infallible; great actors can almost.. fake it. Then I look at the company men keep. That, so far - causes me to believe that Dubya et al are quite capable of implementing Empire - by-any-other-name as will do for consumption. If they can get away with an artful enough cover-plan. In this case, it is not the paranoid they - read the Cabinet roster. Hope you're right. Mainly I hope that I'm giving this group too much credit re orchestrating the conversion of a pseudo-Republic into a manageable mass of scared sheep. Will 'we' trade that messy, argumentative arrangement for the homogenized convenience of a New Dream of.. 'perfect security' from the rest of the world's opinion of our machinations? I trust you feed the tykes some brain food - they'll need to use that muscle in any next. Movie at 9/11 Cheers, Ashton
Post #95,811 by cwbrenn 4/10/03 2:42:32 PM Reply	No, I won't stop it. Quite apart from his state of the union address, which says "things will be done," GB has given many reasons for why we're actually in Iraq: 1. He has weapons of mass destruction (UN inspections didn't find any. "Doesn't matter! He still has 'em, and we know it! We don't need to prove it to you!") 2. We're there to liberate the Iraqi people ("It's not about weapons of mass destruction! It's because Saddam is a bad man!") 3. Saddam has ties with Al Qeuda ("His father in law met with a guy one time.") 4. Iraq may be a direct threat to us in the future, someday. ("His missiles can't reach us... yet.") 1, 2, 3, and 4 get alternated. Whenever someone raises an objection to one, one of the other three gets pulled out and dusted off. That's what I'm talking about. The administration has made little or no attempt to flesh out the reasons behind each of these beyond Colin Powell's slide show, which may have had data that could be interpreted in a certain way if you were already looking for it. Rumsfeld attacks journalists who ask probing questions. Active attempts to explore the issue are discouraged. So sure... they have an overall goal, outlined in his state of the union address. And meanwhile, they keep flip-flopping on what argument to use to support specific parts of that goal, because they keep falling over. And, finally, the issue you've decided to respond to is one of the smallest parts of my post. Hell, it's not even the point. It's background. And yet, strangely enough, it seems to have the longest sub-thread of the lot. Bait, switch, match. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #95,816 by screamer 4/10/03 2:50:22 PM Reply	At the risk of being redundant... please look here : [link\|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html\|http://www.whitehous.../20020129-11.html] specifically here: Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens -- leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections -- then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world. States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic. He made the only case he needed to make right here. The rest has been the media selling media, IMNSHO. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,837 by screamer 4/10/03 3:59:37 PM Reply	Sincere apology as well... You write: "And, finally, the issue you've decided to respond to is one of the smallest parts of my post. Hell, it's not even the point. It's background. And yet, strangely enough, it seems to have the longest sub-thread of the lot. Bait, switch, match." Although I do not think it was "one of the smallest parts of (your) post" (obviously), you have valid concerns such as what precedence this could possibly set for future wars. Upon rereading, I did gloss over some of your better points. I apologize. I have not concerned myself with this question so much insofar as all wars start pretty much this way... "i.e. we really think we should, and we have good reasons" and leave it at that". Very few nations ask UN permission to go to war. What was unprecedented, IMHO, was how much discussion occurred before we went into Iraq. When, in your original post, you state: "That doesn't shake my belief that the US is forming the beginnings of a foreign policy stance that should not be taken. And I've never believed the ends justify the means." I do not share the premise that "we are forming the beginnings of a foreign policy stance that should not be taken." Because of this, I do not share your fears. I believe that in the context of 9/11 and as outlined by Bush's State of the Union speech, that the foreign policy stance we are taking is necessary for the reasons he outlined. I therefor do not have the dichotomy of emotions you have. AND I do not believe the "ends justifies the means" every time, but I believe it does sometimes...YMMV. I truly am hopeful for Iraq's people. As the world keeps populating, we are going to have to find ways to live and work together as individuals and nations. The US is in a unique position (other than being the sole remaining superpower) in that much of our strength truly is from our diversity. We have found ways to live and work together already, people of differing ethnic, religious, racial backgrounds (although it ain't always painless or pretty). For most nations of the world, this is only an intellectual excercise as their populations are homogenous. My point being - this gives me hope. And because this is a democracy, WTFpeople can change our direction every November, if we get "inspired". Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,884 by cwbrenn 4/10/03 5:32:43 PM Reply	I appreciate that I can get rather cynical in these kinds of discussions, because all too often I find people putting words in my mouth, or focusing on a lesser issue that they can attack more throughly instead of my main point. I confess I was starting to get my dander up, because I thought it was going that way again. Your observation that the part of my post that you originally responded to was not as small as I make it out to be is a fair one -- to me it is, because it was "buildup" to what I was really going on about, but I did spend a fair amount of time on it -- but I also appreciate your taking the time to respond to my other point. I can understand why you wouldn't share my premise, and thus my concern... but your stance requires a certain amount of confidence in the responsibility of people who wield power that I don't have. Not because I necessarily think they are "evil" people, but because immense power is very easy to wield badly. The US is staggeringly powerful. Therefore (in my opinion) the power it can bring to bear must be made very difficult to actually use. The way things are going, the power to wage war is being made easier and that makes me uneasy. Uneasy is too mild a word, I suppose. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #95,939 by Ashton 4/10/03 11:08:14 PM Reply	There's further and ominous indication of the agenda of this unelected cabal, now in power: Some months ago reported: the intention to make "smaller, more compact battlefield nukes". Period. No prior debate, discussion - rationale OR even rationalization. Nada. Just another 'announcement'. Commissioning new nukes of this description is the obv. First Step in attempting a major propaganda coup regarding the entire world's attitude towards all such weapons: that they be used only as last resort, as in averting an attack by another upon one's country. This is G\ufffdbbelsian-scale mind fuck IMhO: it is no less than the subtle addition of such munitions to the category of "ordinary weapons" / nothing to see here: Move On. Slipped in as stealthily as the anti-Constitutional PATRIOT abomination. Combine this factoid with the Project for the New American Century material (linked in several posts here) - whose authors ARE the current US CABINET! and I see considerable cause for a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in the perilous course these obsessed ones have evidently embarked (Us All) upon. We shall see.. if we get a chance! even - to "vote them out" before irreversible mischief is in full delicto flagrante. How soon -?- will the next member of The Massively-flexible Axis of Evil be summarily attacked 'for our comfort and security'. Ashton
Post #95,855 by Another Scott 4/10/03 4:32:01 PM Reply	Franks restates Rumsfeld's 8 goals. [link\|http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/News_Release.asp?NewsRelease=20030344.txt\|Here], from March 22: You know, Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld, my boss, yesterday outlined the military objectives of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Let me review them with you. First, end the regime of Saddam Hussein. Second, to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Third, to search for, to capture and to drive out terrorists from that country. Fourth, to collect such intelligence as we can related to terrorist networks. Fifth, to collect such intelligence as we can related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction. Sixth, to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian support to the displaced and to many needy Iraqi citizens. Seventh, to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people. And last, to help the Iraqi people create conditions for a transition to a representative self-government. Regards, Scott.
Post #96,105 by jb4 4/11/03 5:57:43 PM Reply	Oh, Puh-LEEEZE! I'm sure you'll point to Afghanistan as a shining example of "Bush does what he says... PERIOD." Who you crappin', Screamer?!? jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #96,152 by Silverlock 4/11/03 8:41:50 PM Reply	This is the thing I don't understand "Bush does what he says" is somehow supposed to make me feel better? Leaving aside for the moment the laughable and easily disproven premise, the actions undertaken by Bush agree with the statements he has made in public forums with minimal correlation. He said during the campaigns that he didn't want the US to be a Nation builder. He said Afghanistan would not be abandoned. (You see any news story on our liberal media about Bush not including a single dollar for aid to Afghanistan in the last budget he submitted?). He said (in inference) that Saddam and Osama were in cahoots. He has said many things that have been shown to be lies. Yet somehow, his actions that give the lie to his words prove his other words? I'm confused. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #96,179 by Ashton 4/11/03 11:30:23 PM Reply	Ummm________Yeah!
Post #96,774 by tuberculosis 4/16/03 12:50:15 AM Reply	9/11 is completely irrelevant "maybe you might still be in denial about how America has changed since 9/11."{ Terrorists didn't change America - a bunch of power hungry opportunists did and I'm fscking sick of hearing about it. 9/11 was a tragedy. I'm sad it happened. But to put it into perspective, 9/11's death toll is roughly 3 weeks of highway fatalities. Thats it. General Motors kills more people every year than OBL ever did. Its sad but that's life (and death). Please stop making 9/11 the excuse for every fucked up thing going on from the price of oil to my dot com folding. Its just bullshit and nothing about 9/11 justifies the current goings on in our country/government. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #96,776 by inthane-chan 4/16/03 1:14:57 AM Reply	In 100% agreement. Read my .sig. After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism." Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
Post #96,777 by bepatient 4/16/03 1:18:53 AM Reply	I kindof have to disagree a bit. 9/11 made a good portion of America feel >unsafe<. It, unfortunately, took the hayseed from their hair and forced them to realize that we are part of the >world<...and the world is not cast in the form of "Main Street USA". And the part that many don't seem to understand...politicians overall will respond to their constituents. Right now >NOBODY< will get voted from office for the security measures being taken by the government. Why? "We the people" (in the Constitutional sense) SUPPORT them...by a large margin. They supported the removal of Hussein. They support the airport security measures. They support expanded police authority for investigations, they support governmental sharing of data...all of it. And, when the random crashing of SUVs showed a pattern...it did get governmental and public awareness...and the Firestone lawsuit and hearings dealt with far fewer deaths than 9/11. This country >has< changed since 9/11. And 2 years in...we can see the over-reaction in certain areas. I agree with you that not >everything< should be blamed on 9/11...but the current government is responding largely to those concerns...to the current detriment of the economy and local affairs. It will cost them the election (if the Dems can field a candidate...that is) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,790 by ben_tilly 4/16/03 7:02:37 AM Reply	Unsafe, but not personally so You will note that in NYC polls consistently run against Bush's war. Why? My guess is that it is a lot harder to be so rah rah when you are also personally aware that you live in a big bullseye. It is also possible that living here you see more clearly the hypocrisy implicit in people with their own agendas taking advantage of this crisis to hijack national politics while simultaneously ignoring the needs of the place where it happened. (NYC is looking at massive cutbacks in firefighters and police.) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #96,820 by inthane-chan 4/16/03 11:06:32 AM Reply	Bullpucky. Beep, the PNAC was running the agenda BEFORE fucking 9/11 - they just shamelessly manipulated public opinion like a bunch of ghoulish ambulance chasers afterwards. Quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing you sit back and claiming that there's no hidden agenda, no real dissapearance of civil rights, that stupid claim that "trickle-down economics" actually works, etc, etc - if the fucking GESTAPO came by and packed away half of IWETHEY tomorrow, the feeling I get from you is that you'd be sitting with your thumb up your ass, preaching "the market will correct, the market will correct..." Guess what: The market doesn't correct unless somebody FUCKING DOES SOMETHING TO CORRECT IT. WE* ARE THE FUCKING MARKET. Every day you just sit back and call this a blip instead of adding your voice to the choir saying "enough is enough" is one more day of bigoted close-minded assholes like Marlowe running everything. * In the sense that all humanity makes up the market. After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism." Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
Post #96,824 by bepatient 4/16/03 11:22:10 AM Reply	You know what... ...keep reading Ashton...instead of paying attention to me..and continue to misrepresent my opinion. It seems to be what your best at. Or...when you calm the fuck down...come back and we'll chat. K? Otherwise...piss off for now. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,898 by Ashton 4/16/03 6:53:57 PM Reply	Moi??__{Omigawd} I think he just said... Read Me in My Posts [!!] ..don't listen to these calumniators and see my proves! \ufffd 199x the Legendary.. M&M Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. I dunno, BeeP - but I don't see how my deconstructions of your stolid hoary edifices can alter What, ~ You Always Do\ufffd: reductio ad it'salljustrunninglikeClockwork! (But then, I'm biased - I'd settle for 'Leaders' whom I disagree with.. merely selected by an Honest Process, but who speak English and aren't motivated by theological Megalomania - over ones I'd agree with in aims, but whose MO is The Big Lie [too..]) Your bias is of course.. different. Wonder what it really is ? Since most of yer stuff is simply a plea for thisisthebestofallpossibleworlds, you sap. Read me in my posts! you calumniators
Post #96,906 by bepatient 4/16/03 7:41:47 PM Reply	"the market will correct, the market will correct..." [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/search/?field_searchUser=-1&field_searchSubject=&field_searchContent=%22the+market+will+correct%22&field_searchSignature=&field_searchForum=-1&field_boardid=1&submit_ok%3Amethod=Search\|Those are >your< words.] I have never typed those words in these forums. So forgive me for getting tired of having your bullshit attributed to me. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #96,947 by Ashton 4/17/03 5:03:41 AM Reply	Damn.. I thought it was inscribed over arches at Econ U__:( along with, Caveat Emptor and The Sheep Shall Be Sheared (Kinda like at our student house, Stet Fortvna Domus :-)
Post #96,795 by drewk 4/16/03 8:13:44 AM Reply	Can I get that on a T-shirt? Please stop making 9/11 the excuse for every fucked up thing going on from the price of oil to my dot com folding. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #96,803 by Another Scott 4/16/03 9:46:42 AM Reply	Hmmm. Let's see how this works. "12/7 was a tragedy. I'm sad it happened. But to put it into perspective, 12/7's [link\|http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1200.htm\|death toll] was a few weeks of highway fatalities. That's it. General Motors kills more people every year than [link\|http://www.nps.gov/usar/ExtendWeb1.html\|Yamomoto did on 12/7]. Its sad but that's life (and death)." Lots of people see 9/11/01 and 12/7/41 as similar events. Lots of people can and do say that 9/11 wasn't that big a deal. It didn't threaten our way of life. But one can make a similar argument that an attack on some ships at a small island in the middle of the Pacific wasn't that big a deal either. I don't think it's a good argument myself. 9/11 did tens of billions of dollars of damage to the US economy in the span of 2 hours or so. It'll take years for the US to recover from that damage. It's a much bigger impact than the tragedy of car accidents. IMHO. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #96,842 by Simon_Jester 4/16/03 12:53:15 PM Reply	Hmm...have to disagree on that. 1941 and 2001 are similar. Both represented attacks that got us into wars. No argument there. (Strickly speaking, 1941's attacks on ships weren't a big deal, Japan had done it before, so nothing, except the war, had changed. -- Likewise, 2001 wasn't a big deal, the WTC had been bombed before, so except for the "War on Terrorism", nothing had changed.) However, in 1941, the attacks caused a general lessening of civil rights and justice problems, most notably the internment of Japanese Americans. 2001 the attacks are causing a general lessening of civil rights and justice problems. (An interesting justification - do we not learn from our mistakes?) However, unlike 1941 where we declared war on Japan (Germany declared war on us, iirc), we're now attacking countries that weren't associated with the attacks.
Post #96,844 by tuberculosis 4/16/03 1:00:57 PM Reply	Not equivalent acts "Lots of people see 9/11/01 and 12/7/41 as similar events." In a lot of ways they are. In a lot more ways they aren't. Yamamoto represented a government and commanded a huge military machine capable of repeating his attacks until defeated. The 9/11 terrorists had some razor knives and succeeded based on the complacent mindset of the passengers. There is no way that 9/11 could succeed today. The people are more vigilant and will now take action to protect themselves. Do you honestly think that some set of wackos with box cutters could pull off a 9/11 today with the current US awareness? No fucking way. Because people are mad as hell and unwilling to put up with that shit anymore. I'd beat the fucker to a bloody pulp myself just because I'm sick of bending over and coughing everytime I get on an airplane. And 9/11 didn't trash the economy. It just gave it a bump. It should be gone by now. Why is the economy still trashed? Is it 9/11? Or is it paralysis caused by uncertainty fostered by a regime intent on unsound economic policies and an unrelated military agenda? I think its the second and I'm mad as hell because I've gone from a 6 figure income to unemployable (and as Petroleum Engineering grad - I've been here before). We have lost 2 MILLION PERMANENT JOBS in the US economy - something that's never happened before and its got nothing to do with a small cadre of X-acto wielding psychopaths. Read my lips - 9/11's sole connection to the Iraq war is the creation of fear and confusion in the american populace thats been exploited by the current US regime to push through their own economic/miltary agenda. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #96,891 by Ashton 4/16/03 6:29:38 PM Reply	What. He. Said.
Post #96,892 by rcareaga 4/16/03 6:32:31 PM Reply	Me. Too. Plus. ICLRPD. I'd beat the fucker to a bloody pulp myself just because I'm sick of bending over and coughing everytime I get on an airplane. "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #97,333 by mmoffitt 4/18/03 5:59:19 PM Reply	Ibid. Well put. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #95,779 by Simon_Jester 4/10/03 1:26:13 PM Reply	Why is this a dilemma? As I pointed out in the past, there is a sizeable group on the left that looked at Saddam Hussein and judged that we (and others) would be better of with him out of power. (Even Clinton, that leftist-communistic-pervert-from-hell agreed). The issue isn't whether or not Saddam should be removed from power (although certain elements have tried to paint that as the issue all along) but rather the methodology of removing him from power. (There is also the issue - still unresolved, of what will happen when Saddam is removed...that certain group will be rejoicing -- and others complaining -- is a given. Who controls the government and who controls the oil.)
Post #95,810 by screamer 4/10/03 2:41:40 PM Reply	Okay, I get it now... The means not the ends. I didn't think that this could possibly still be an issue. My bad. I have always assumed that after you reach a certain point, your choices are limited, so limited, in fact, the the solution is obvious. For example, let's use Iraq. Sanctions didn't work, threats didn't work, nor did inspections... Many felt that the solution was appeasement by inaction (more inspections). It's like the broken American education system... It doesn't work, so let's do more of it (make them go in the summer). It is absolute bullshit. Let's change the curriculum. Let's change the regime... Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,813 by cwbrenn 4/10/03 2:44:40 PM Reply	I don't know if the inspections worked or not A few months isn't enough time to search an entire freaking country. This is not the same thing as saying "we should let the inspections go on forever." And again, still not the point of my post. "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #95,817 by screamer 4/10/03 2:52:37 PM Reply	I'm starting to get upset... a few months sounds a lot less than 12 fucking long years... Or 10 fucking long years if you subtract the years that Saddam kicked the inspectors out... Doesn't it? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,819 by rcareaga 4/10/03 2:59:20 PM Reply	Re: I'm starting to get upset... Should this alarm us? Do you become violent? Ought we clear the room? "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #95,826 by screamer 4/10/03 3:13:09 PM Reply	I can get edgy... As far as your personal safety, you won't need to use the Patriot Act on me... Exit the building to the doors in the rear in a calm and orderly fashion... Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,821 by Silverlock 4/10/03 3:04:27 PM Reply	Saddam didn't kick 'em out. And why haven't you been screaming for 12 years if it was so important to you personally? The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #95,829 by screamer 4/10/03 3:18:41 PM Reply	Let's play semantics now... Huh? Because in the end, the only arguments that are left are semantic games. Do you mean he didn't physically "kick" them out? Or do you mean that "he" didn't kick them out? Or do you mean he didn't kick them "out"? Or do you mean that you are going to twist the logic of the wording "full access" to the inspectors? Or do you mean that you are tired of discussing issues that you have already made up your mind about and are going to play khasim semantics in order that I will go away? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,830 by Silverlock 4/10/03 3:33:13 PM Reply	I mean what I say. However you spin it. For the semantically challenged; The weapons inspectors were not "kicked out" of Iraq. By Saddam or anyone else. They were ordered to leave by their UN boss. Chief U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler has ordered all non-essential staff out of Iraq as a precautionary measure in case of U.S. military action. Novwember 11, [link\|http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9811/11/iraq.02/\|1998] The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #95,838 by screamer 4/10/03 4:04:51 PM Reply	You say potato... from your own article: The action comes amid reports that the United States was preparing to launch a military strike against Iraq following Baghdad's refusal to allow UNSCOM to conduct inspections. Let's ask God for a ruling :-) Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,842 by screamer 4/10/03 4:08:34 PM Reply	no, no... wait... God... I see my mistake. They were not "kicked" out. They were just not invited to be allowed to "inspect" anymore. They weren't technically asked to leave. Okay... I'm wrong, wrong, wrong. LMFAO Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,844 by Silverlock 4/10/03 4:11:16 PM Reply	That happens a lot You being wrong. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #95,850 by screamer 4/10/03 4:18:36 PM Reply	10-4. Over and out... Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,880 by dmarker 4/10/03 5:15:30 PM Reply	To Screamer, want to compliment you on your recent posts You have handled these threads very well & your logic & way of presenting your case, the best I have seen from you. Credit where credit is due - thanks Doug Marker Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #95,900 by screamer 4/10/03 6:24:44 PM Reply	Thank you, Doug... At one time, I used to be human... As you can see from my graphic (if you have graphics on), I have completely digressed over the last few days back to the womb... I also used to love to debate and challenge myself with the likes of you guys. I also used to have an easy job where I had plenty of free time! I really don't mean to hit and run. We all have deep feelings associated with the recent world events. I try to make sense out of what garbage shows up in the media (GIGO). To quote DiNiro, "I know a thing or two about a thing or two", but I am a work in progress. If someone can give a compelling and pursuasive argument, I still can learn a few things. I know we've been at odds about the "audacity" of the current US foreign policy, but I think you will find that when it is written in the history books, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea will be under the subheading of US reaction to 9/11 to defeat organized terrorism... It just ain't very pretty while it's happening. I think we'll probably stop short of the Mafia and find ourselves back, totally preoccupied with our own wars on drugs, free speech, and eachother (in general) and back to our true religion of Materialism shortly enough. While we're waiting, does Australia have any terrorists? ;-) Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #95,951 by dmarker 4/11/03 12:39:39 AM Reply	I think the policy actually precceded 9/11 9/11 merely gave it a new form and substance. I could never see how world trade & open borders could ever take off while we had rogue states like Iraq, NK, Zimbabwe, and reactionary extremeists like the Taliban etc: etc:. Openess can only happen in a climate where there is an accptable level of demoracy even if it is dumbed down from what a benevolent dictator can achieve. They never last & too often turn nasty. The thing about world trade & open borders is that it is both evolutionary & a notion whoose time has come. But could be devestated by any committed group of marginalized unhappy people through acts of terrorism. It seems that as long as everyone gets a chance to participate in a growing trade, then the open trade & borders promote common wealth (e.g. mfg moves to China which is boosting that countries wealth & shifting quite large numbers of people up the income tree). Unhappy people want to tear down the symbols that they associate with their own poverty or emptiness or lack of self worth. Extremist Islam & Christianity thrive in poverty & despair (their religion fills the gap). In Oz we really have no terrorists - many years back we had Serbian & Croation groups here that did their own paramilitary training & hated each other so much that their local football clubs were 'ordered' to adopt names that had no ethinic or regional association - purpose was that when Zagreb soccer club defeated a like names Serbian team the emotions ran so high that we had knifing deaths in the regular melees - that has more or less passed these days. The aboriginal community are a passive natured people who will protest but tend to do so quite peacfully, some part-aboriginal people can get nasty but even they are mild by international standards. Maybe though Australia & NZ might go to war (grin) over rugby, cricket, yachting etc: Cheers Doug Marker Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #95,835 by God 4/10/03 3:45:24 PM Reply	The ends justify the means. A statement that I have never believed. #1. Saddam was a bad man. #2. The Iraqi people are better off with someone who is BETTER than Saddam. (This also means that the Iraqi people would be WORSE off with someone WORSE than Saddam.) #3. There are WORSE people than Saddam who could be in charge of Iraq. #4. If we put "elections" in Iraq, the populace MIGHT elect someone WORSE than Saddam. #5. If we put someone in charge of Iraq, that person might be WORSE than Saddam (remember, we supported Saddam in the past). And so on and so forth. Now, as for whether any individual Iraqi will tell you that "they" are better off without Saddam depends TOTALLY upon the personal values of that individual Iraqi, at this moment.
Post #95,893 by Allah 4/10/03 6:06:30 PM Reply	I spit on you inferior Jew Crusader loving camel sweat Some one with strong religious beliefs will be highly offended by your login name as well as those who are my subjects. Allah Maleuikem, Me
Post #95,894 by admin 4/10/03 6:08:31 PM Reply	ENOUGH of this already. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,940 by jbrabeck 4/10/03 11:15:14 PM Reply	Can we drop some of the IDs? I take personal offense at someone calling themself God or Allah. Why not MuthaFucka, AssPumper, Lezbo, GayOne, Nigger, Spick, Wop, or something else offensive. Or at least keep the inflamatory ids limited to the flames forum. On the rare occassions that I visit there, I'll tolerate any language/id/name calling. The rest of the fora I visit for information. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com\|Joe]
Post #95,944 by a6l6e6x 4/10/03 11:29:30 PM Reply	Am I "safe" with mine? Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #95,971 by jbrabeck 4/11/03 8:15:50 AM Reply	Doesn't "convey" anything to me. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com\|Joe]
Post #95,988 by admin 4/11/03 9:03:01 AM Reply	Not so much the content Although, "God" and "Allah" are a bit over the top. It's using a fake id as a joke. This isn't a toy. What Brandioch and Bill did is not much removed from what Norm was doing. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #95,990 by boxley 4/11/03 9:08:39 AM Reply	What I did was to protest of the misuse of another because I know that some in here would be offended by that ID. Also I parked the Allah ID so it cannot be misused. It wont be posting again. I would suggest parking a few other id's thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #96,070 by jbrabeck 4/11/03 1:35:00 PM Reply	Thank you for parking Allah, now Brandi will you park God? [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com\|Joe]
Post #96,180 by Ashton 4/11/03 11:33:15 PM Reply	Omniscient but !=sanctimonious LRPD:__ Trust me...
Post #97,161 by marlowe 4/17/03 8:29:11 PM Reply	You'll feel a lot better if... you quit trying to have it both ways. There's nothing irresponsible about doing what works. That's the exact opposite of irresponsible. Wasting all that time with the lying self-dealers at the UN was the closest thing to irresponsible. All those years of doing nothing at all was grossly irresponsible. Immoral, even. Remember: nobody had any better ideas. Nobody. Don't argue with success. You'll lose every time. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Victory was the answer - to a great many problems. When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate. The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #97,236 by pwhysall 4/18/03 4:18:04 AM Reply	Do you distinguish... ...between "expedient" and "right"? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #97,442 by marlowe 4/20/03 6:30:49 PM Reply	It's a continuum. The X axis is time scale. Oh wait. Was that a rhetorical question? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Victory was the answer - to a great many problems. When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate. The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]

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