The first big mistake by the coalition

Post #91,796 by bluke 3/26/03 11:03:07 AM 3/26/03 11:09:08 AM Reply	The first big mistake by the coalition At least 2 missiles hit a residential area destroying 3 houses killing at least 15 civilians, Al Jazeera and Iraqi TV are showing live pictures from the area. The US response is quite strange, at a military briefing in Qatar, U.S. Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said he could not confirm that U.S. missiles hit the neighborhood. "We don't have a report that corroborates that so I can't confirm it," he said. "We don't know that those are ours." Who else's could it be? Is anyone else dropping bombs or firing missiles at Baghdad that we don't know about? The [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2887555.stm\|BBC] has a partial report. Edited by bluke March 26, 2003, 11:09:08 AM EST Expand All History
Post #91,802 by bepatient 3/26/03 11:19:41 AM Reply	The aftermath of a bomb blast... ...looks the same on TV...no matter who fired the missile or placed the explosive. Our missiles have cameras mounted on them. However, noone here appears ready to believe any report made by US sources. So here is the problem..Al-J says it was our missiles that did this. Our press reports the Al-J report saying that we did this. Noone will believe any report that comes out to the contrary. But... We have reports from before hostilities saying that part of the Iraqi strategy was to incur civilian deaths and blame it on the US forces. Is it likely that we missed once? Sure. Twice..a little more remote...but sure. I have no doubt Tommy is waiting to see the video feed from the missiles before commenting on this situation. So...who did it? We'll find out after the war...maybe. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,806 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 11:23:49 AM Reply	Yeah, and... who says it was one of OUR Patriot missles that shot down that Brit pilot guy too! God, you are nothing if not predictable. bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #91,815 by bepatient 3/26/03 11:41:26 AM Reply	I'm not denying anything. In fact, I stated that it is entirely possible that we missed. You are, however, predictable in immediately blaming US forces without any proof except a broadcast from a known source of propoganda. I, at least, am evaluating both sides of the issue before passing judgement. I believe we created an emoticon for you...remember? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,820 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 11:47:44 AM Reply	I c. Is this it then? The Brit pilot was shot down by us because WE said so. Just so I'm clear (at long last), the rule is: "A thing is true if and only if WE say so." bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #91,826 by bepatient 3/26/03 12:03:42 PM Reply	Oh...I forget... ...you practice not reading a post prior to misrepresenting what was actually stated in it...don't you? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,833 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 12:20:28 PM Reply	Now, I've got it. We're inverses. You wait for confirmation from the US about something claimed by some one else about the US. I wait for confirmation from outside the US about something the US claimed. We'll agree about current events in about 50 years when the Freedom of Information Act requires our "secret" documents to be released. bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #91,835 by bepatient 3/26/03 12:29:03 PM Reply	Wrong again. Unless you consider Al Jazeera a reliable source, which you apparently do. I don't. I don't consider the US media to be extremely reliable either...especially right now. But I'll accept them over Al Jazeera any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Maybe I'll stop reading foreign media...since you seem to think that US media is my only source...it will save me alot of time. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,977 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 7:49:23 PM Reply	See my response to Jay. The logic may escape you. bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #91,984 by bepatient 3/26/03 8:04:16 PM Reply	Obviously...since your point to Jay is completely unrelated. to media sources. Whose fault it was wasn't part of our conversation. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,987 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 8:20:41 PM Reply	I was trying to point out that thinking is better than... relying on any media outlet, ours or theirs. Look at the facts, think for yourself, draw your own conclusions. Any civilian deaths in Iraq are our responsibility. It doesn't fucking matter whose bomb killed them - we created the environment for bombs. Clear? bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #92,008 by bepatient 3/26/03 8:48:58 PM Reply	So point it out to someone... ...who is actually talking about that. You want to assign blame...go ahead. I was talking about reliability of sources and the possibility that things may not be as they seem. Since I already knew who you are going to assign the blame to...your change of subject wasn't really necessary at all. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #92,010 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 8:51:46 PM Reply	Forgive me. The point of referring to sources, I thought, .. was to determine responsibility. You aren't interested in responsibility and that doesn't surprise me. My point is that the "sources" cited to determine responsibility don't matter when responsibility is self-evident. bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #92,052 by bepatient 3/26/03 9:31:37 PM Reply	Ahh...I see... ...so if Sadam orders his military to kill Iraqi citizens...it is, by default, our fault. I get it now. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #92,056 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 9:37:13 PM Reply	Put down the crack pipe. And you're accusing me of going off the reservation? bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #92,072 by bepatient 3/26/03 10:23:26 PM Reply	You said it. Regardless of how that explosion happened...>we< started this war...and all casualties are our fault. If you wanna rephrase it...thats fine with me. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #92,126 by Ashton 3/27/03 6:20:31 AM Reply	Last I heard, this applies to criminal law in US Who else is responsible for starting this war? You rob a store (or sit in the get away car) - you are responsible for umm 'collateral' damage. This would include (IIRC one case) if a shopper has a heart attack as result of your (or accomplice's) presence, intent to rob. Doesn't seem such a stretch, though it obv suffers from the absence of an Enforcing Authority: we don't recognize any court able to find us contemptible. So in the end - might makes ~~Right~~ Immunity. We are such pragmatists - but we gots our Farmily Valuez! and love to spread them around. Ashton Causus Belli
Post #91,807 by bluke 3/26/03 11:24:52 AM Reply	Very reasonable to assume it was American after all the US is bombing Baghdad heavily, for a missile or 2 to hit the wrong target (or the right target from the missiles perspective based on bad intelligence) is expected. To look for conspiracy theories that Iraq bombed their own civilians is going a bit overboard.
Post #91,819 by bepatient 3/26/03 11:46:41 AM Reply	Exactly. It is entirely reasonable to believe it is so...which makes it a great opportunity to use this scenario as propaganda. It may be a stretch...but to deny the Iraqi regime's capability of killing its own for propaganda value is going just as far overboard in the opposite direction. Are they equal weighted probablilities...no. Our missing is the more likely scenario...but to deny the possibility...or to expect the command structure to own up without a thorough review of the evidence is...um...silly. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #91,808 by inthane-chan 3/26/03 11:25:17 AM Reply	Agreed. My yardstick: If we continue to hear about how "the U.S. did it" or the story drops off the front page, and nothing more is forthcoming from the military, then most likely we did miss. That happens. This is war. It sucks, but this does happen in war. On the other hand, if it was a 3rd party, I'm sure the military will be all over it denying that "we" did it. That seems to be the pattern so far. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring.
Post #91,816 by deSitter 3/26/03 11:41:46 AM 3/26/03 11:47:37 AM Reply	Re: The aftermath of a bomb blast... Few of our munitions are now sight guided. This was a JDAM that took a wrong turn on Mujahideen Street. 1 degree = roughly 70 miles, so an error of 1 second of arc in plugging in the coordinates means (70 x 5280) ft / 3600 ~ 100 feet. An error of 1 minute of arc in plugging in coordinates means an error of 6000 feet, more than a mile. -drl Edited by deSitter March 26, 2003, 11:47:37 AM EST Expand All History
Post #91,824 by bepatient 3/26/03 12:01:02 PM 3/26/03 12:02:05 PM Reply	Understood... ...but there are 4 different guidance systems on a Tomahawk. DSMAC uses imagery and is not the primary guidance system in use any longer. GPS guidance is more often used...and you are correct in your calculations (of course). There are also [link\|http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/US/iraq_tomahawk030320.html\|several upgrades] supposedly in use in Iraq...one of which is the addition of live target video from cruise missiles. They are certainly doing bomb damage assessment now...we'll see what they say when that is completed. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient March 26, 2003, 12:02:05 PM EST Expand All History
Post #91,838 by Arkadiy 3/26/03 12:44:46 PM Reply	I wonder if we indeed managed to destroy all GPS jammers. Could it be that they finally did their job? -- It made Ketchup! Sweet Ketchup! Put it on a hot dog, put it on a burger, Put it on your sister and she'll holler blody murder! Sweet Ketchup. --Tom Paxton.
Post #92,103 by dmarker 3/27/03 12:31:11 AM Reply	Here in Australia US command is admitting it !!! First they claimed it was caused by Iraq's own anti-aircraft fire but the damage & multiple craters made a mockery of that claim. Then the US officials interviewed claimed that they were only attacking Iraqi AA batteries placed in civillian areas. This place was an open market. Today the US officials were saying (on TV here in Oz) 'it may have been US missiles'. As with all these events, usually there is a grain of truth and as awful as it is, Al Jazzera are more accurate and more honest than any other network. (They are based in Qattar where US HQ is !!!). They are not Iraqi but are Arab. Doug Marker Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003 Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
Post #92,105 by jake123 3/27/03 12:37:31 AM Reply	So far, US and British media are coming up waaaay short Both Russian and Chinese media are scooping them big time; if you're multilingual, you can get a very different picture of the war than if you are only watching CNN. EG- scooped on the POW story by almost 24 hours, scooped on the Naphet battle by almost 24 hours (hey, the Globe and Mail scooped them on that one even), scooped on the supply line problems by almost 24 hours, scooped the Apache helicopter crash by about twelve hours... you'd think that NA media was being carefully controlled to present a positive image of the war. I think they're concerned that al-Jazeera english language website would force CNN to start trying to get news instead of relaying press releases. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #92,157 by inthane-chan 3/27/03 10:54:49 AM Reply	Who do you think was behind the DoS attack? ;-)
Post #92,166 by jake123 3/27/03 11:09:15 AM Reply	That's not funny when you think about it a bit. --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \r\n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \r\n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #92,168 by inthane-chan 3/27/03 11:11:15 AM Reply	Well, yeah... ...I'm just not sure I'm ready to accept the possibility yet. I'd like to think that it's not totally hopeless over here. God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
Post #92,266 by boxley 3/27/03 6:40:21 PM Reply	well its dns poisoning today, claims d00dz [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37392-2003Mar27.html\|http://www.washingto...92-2003Mar27.html] I wish they wouldnt I dont like being kept away from news of a different source. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #91,966 by Ashton 3/26/03 6:28:51 PM Reply	Another posit heard - Wayward ack ack from locals. I have little idea what kind of fuzing might be in an Iraqi A-A shell; whether there is a lockout if it fails to detonate by altitude x (?) Ashton
Post #91,972 by JayMehaffey 3/26/03 7:38:02 PM Reply	Not quite admiting to it [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32299-2003Mar26.html\|Washington Post] The Pentagon acknowledged striking targets in a residential Baghdad neighborhood that may have caused civilian damage or deaths Wednesday and blamed Iraqi forces for placing military equipment there. U.S.-led air strikes targeted nine surface-to-surface missiles and launchers in Baghdad at about 3 a.m. EST, said a statement from the U.S. Central Command. It was unclear whether they were in the same area the Iraqis were talking about. We still are not quite admiting to it. But it's pretty obvious that it was us. Of course, if it's true that Iraq had anti-air missle launchers hidden in the area, then it's more Saddam's fault then ours. And given the tactics that Saddam is using, I see no reason to doubt that we at least thought there where launchers there. Jay
Post #91,976 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 7:49:02 PM Reply	Re: it's more Saddam's fault Except that if we weren't involved in this illegal war there would have been no bombs falling from the sky and no AA gunnery firing. Hence, without regard to whether it was an AA missle detonating on the ground or one of our own "smart" bombs that missed its intended target, IT IS OUR FAULT. Let's not take our eye off the ball, shall we? bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #92,003 by boxley 3/26/03 8:42:13 PM Reply	any one know where the full text of UN resolutions 687,678 is available to be read? Lots of commentary out there but would like the actual text. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
Post #92,006 by Another Scott 3/26/03 8:48:36 PM Reply	UN.org [link\|http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/1990/scres90.htm\|http://www.un.org/Do.../1990/scres90.htm] [link\|http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/1991/scres91.htm\|http://www.un.org/Do.../1991/scres91.htm] Horse's mouth and all that. :-) HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #92,007 by a6l6e6x 3/26/03 8:48:43 PM Reply	Full text of UN resolutions 678, 687 [link\|http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/unscr-resolution-678.html\|Resolution 678]. [link\|http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/unscr-resolution-687.html\|Resolution 687]. Google is your friend. :) Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #92,009 by mmoffitt 3/26/03 8:50:04 PM Reply	Google is your friend. [link\|http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/resolution.text/\|CNN] Personally, I'd search [link\|http://www.un.org\|to get it from the horse's mouth] bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #92,011 by Simon_Jester 3/26/03 8:52:37 PM Reply	You're probably going to want 1441 as well.... that's got the "or else" stuff in it, iirc.
Post #92,017 by boxley 3/26/03 8:59:18 PM Reply	Illegal war? as in Illegal because congress didnt delare it (new thread) Created as new thread #92016 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=92016\|Illegal war? as in Illegal because congress didnt delare it] will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths

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