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New Bin Laden, Taliban, Pakistan & Islam - some comments

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=9038|Link to orig post]

Above is a link to a post put in the OPEN section but belonging here. It contains some comments on Bin Ladens org, backing & support & relationship with Taliban & Pakistan.

Doug Marker
New Supporting links please?
The Frontline show on bin Laden on PBS in the US last night, web story [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/|Hunting Bin Laden] covered some of the same ground, but didn't make quite the same claims. From all I've read, I think it's a stretch to argue that bin Laden somehow controls the Taliban. They clearly support each other, but I don't think bin Laden has any control over them.

Check out the Links to the Atlantic magazine articles, etc. E.g.

[link|http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/09/kaplan2.htm|The Lawless Frontier]

The atrocities demonstrated the Taliban obsession with the notion that the city, with its foreign influences, is the root of all evil. In the recently published Taliban the journalist Ahmed Rashid writes that because many of the Taliban are orphans of war, who have never known the company of women, they have retreated into a male brotherhood reminiscent of the Crusaders. Indeed, the most dangerous movements are often composed of war orphans, who, being unsocialized, are exceptionally brutal (the Khmer Rouge, in Cambodia, and the Revolutionary United Front, in Sierra Leone, are two examples). Of course, the longer wars go on, the more orphans are created.

The Taliban embody a lethal combination: a primitive tribal creed, a fierce religious ideology, and the sheer incompetence, naivet\ufffd, and cruelty that are begot by isolation from the outside world and growing up amid war without parents. They are also an example of globalization, influenced by imported pan-Islamic ideologies and supported economically by both Osama bin Laden's worldwide terrorist network (for whom they provide a base) and a multibillion-dollar smuggling industry in which ships and trucks bring consumer goods from the wealthy Arabian Gulf emirate of Dubai (less a state than the world's largest shopping mall) through Iran and Afghanistan and on to Quetta and Karachi.

The Taliban takeover of Afghanistan also relied on crucial help from Pakistan. By 1994 Pakistan was tiring of its Afghan mujahideen puppet, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s its Inter-Services Intelligence had channeled more arms and money from the CIA to Hekmatyar's radical-fundamentalist faction than to any of the more moderate mujahideen groups. Hekmatyar was young, charismatic, highly educated, and power-hungry. Yet his attraction for the ISI lay in the fact that he had little grassroots support inside Afghanistan itself and was thus beholden to the Pakistanis. The continuing anarchy in Afghanistan after the departure of the Soviets showed the fundamental flaw in the ISI's policy. Hekmatyar could never consolidate power to the extent Pakistan required in order to safeguard its land routes to the new oil states of Central Asia -- routes that would create a bulwark of Muslim states that could confront India.


It's clearly not a simple situation, and Pakistan seems to be more heavily involved with Afghanistan that I thought (and as you say).

I'd be interested in seeing sources for some of your statement (to learn more).

There's little doubt that bin Laden and his followers want to set up "fundamentalist" Islamic states in the Middle East and are attacking the US for, among many other things, supporting the Saudis. It's not yet clear to me that they have grand designs on larger conquests though, outside of the (greater) Middle East. (Though he clearly supports Sudan, so it might not be much of a stretch...)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Supporting links please?

Interestingly there is one - coincidentaly today's SCMP ran an article on this very topic and
covered many of the same points.

They haven't put it online yet - if it will make you feel better I will post a link when they do. I really like people who have the perception to write these articles based on their knowledge and insights of events, rather than parroting other's words.

If you feel that any of the points are incorrect highlight the point in question and I'll humour you with some specific 'references'. I suspect though that anything I say about what has transpired in SE asia over the past 10 years may not mean a lot to you without buckets of past references.

Cheers

Doug
(Hmmm Reminds me of the past discussion on Noam Chomsky.)
New Re: PS where did I say ...


"I think it's a stretch to argue that bin Laden somehow controls the Taliban."

Just wondered.


But, did post this link ...

[link|http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=216037|Bin Laden appointed CiC Taliban Forces]

But of course - it eminated from Russia & we know that if it wasnt on nightly news from US sources it can't be important.


Cheers

Doug

(scuse me if I appear to be mocking your sources of info)
New Maybe it's a punctuation issue.
Hi Doug,

I'm sorry my comments and questions are apparently rubbing you the wrong way.

I wrote:
"I think it's a stretch to argue that bin Laden somehow controls the Taliban."

I got that impression from your comment:
From what I have read & observed, esp what happened in Algeria Afghanistan, Chechenya, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, Phillipines & Northern China, over the past 10 years, The Taliban is but one of the creations of Bin Laden's organisation & Pakistan are holding Taliban together with support from other militant & fundamentalist organisations in other countries.

Emphasis added. Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Maybe it's the whole shebang


Its been a long painful week. I know we are all mind people and our brains have been working overtime.

I am sorry if I seemed sarcastic. I do have an ongoing concern about how little world news seems to make it thru the US media channels & this was one of Noam Chomsky's greatest issues. It is also of concern to some of outside the US as to the extent that opinion in the US appears to be moulded & openly manipulated for particular purposes. I know of people this past week who are putting forward theories that include the US Govt being fully aware that an event of this magnitude was about to happen but had decided as easrly as 2000 to allow it to happen & to use it to focus world energy on wiping out the 'forces-of-evil'. I won't comment any further on that because it is too hard to conceive & is a very counter-productive line of thinking (who wants to feed the conspiracy theory freaks with that kind of food) . It isn't impossible though.

Anyway - please just take my comments as opinions that can be looked at & ignored or absorbed. I usually preface the topic with a line that indicates if it is my own thinking or a quote & I do provide links as much as I can.

Cheers - Doug
New Heard that one...
I know of people this past week who are putting forward theories that include the US Govt being fully aware that an event of this magnitude was about to happen but had decided as easrly as 2000 to allow it to happen & to use it to focus world energy on wiping out the 'forces-of-evil'.
Well, actually I didn't hear it, but my wife listened to a local public radio station where one of the local guys that's known locally was proposing that theory (people in the DFW will know John Wiley Price).

The one convenient aspect to this conspiracy theory is that since Bush was smart enough to let it occur, then surely he will be equally qualified to solve the problem. Nice convenient and tidy way to view things with the world being but a playtoy of the rich and powerful - it's a much scarier thought to realize that we have don't have near enuf control over our destiny as a species.

New Re: On conspiracies

I have a hard copy of a particularly hard hitting item that echoed what I had written re Taliban & Bin Laden. The strange thing though is that this article is not showing in the archieves of SCMP even though it was the feature article on the front page of their FOCUS section.

It is the only article that I can tell, that appears to be missing from their archives.

I will scan the page in later today as 2 jpg images & present it as links to the jpg images.

I can't see any reason for it to dissapear, but as mentioned in another post re some 'interesting photos' I can't get that web site to respond. At this point these types of incidents seem a bit unusual but not enough to question if there is anything deeper invloved.

Cheers

Doug
New Arguing against prior notice, I think
..is the utter banality of Dubya's responses from the first and since. SomeOne in DC could have better prepped him (even if he told the writer only, "say, just in case something awful happens: what should I say? since I have no real thoughts of my own")

??


A.
New hafta disagree here
when reading to the kids an aid whispered in his ear what had happened. Instead of pulling a Bill bawling for the press corp, making a date for later with the teacher and screaming to the kids "gotta go face time!" Bush thought thru the process, there is fsckall I can do in the next 20 minutes, and I wouldnt want to disapoint these kids. Besides it would also give him a chance to think about ramifications, told the aid they would discuss it later and calmly continued the visit with the kids. I didnt care for the guy before but I think now he might, maybe, have a set. The future will let us know.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Point well taken - let's hope there IS a There there..
     Bin Laden, Taliban, Pakistan & Islam - some comments - (dmarker2) - (10)
         Supporting links please? - (Another Scott) - (9)
             Re: Supporting links please? - (dmarker2)
             Re: PS where did I say ... - (dmarker2) - (7)
                 Maybe it's a punctuation issue. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     Re: Maybe it's the whole shebang - (dmarker2) - (5)
                         Heard that one... - (ChrisR) - (4)
                             Re: On conspiracies - (dmarker2)
                             Arguing against prior notice, I think - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 hafta disagree here - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Point well taken - let's hope there IS a There there.. -NT - (Ashton)

We'll all still go there on holiday, get the shits, and complain about their hilariously bad plumbing.
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