Re: What now?

Post #8,688 by inthane-chan 9/12/01 4:56:08 PM Reply	Re: What now? Should we come on and announce that we actively encourage the overthrow of the Saudi and Egyptian governments? Those seem to be the targets of many of the recent terrorist attacks, and the evidence is kind of leaning in that direction again. Forget the fucking past. If you want to make some pretense of ethics, then apply it to something that will actually put something at stake. It is easy to criticize and justify things based on past transgressions. Now, are you willing to make the decision that you resent others not doing so in the past. There is no justification for overthrowing a government, unless we wish to justify others overthrowing our own government. Encouraging the overthrow of Governments is what got us into this in the first place. This does not mean that we should support places that knowingly trample on the rights of their citizens. Should we give money to Egypt and Saudi Arabia so that we can keep the oil flowing? Hell no. We should bite the bullet, and not support them until they guarantee their citizens some reasonable level of the same rights that we hold to be sacred. I know that would screw the U.S. economy, to put it mildly, but is oil and money worth giving up the moral high ground? Will you sell your soul for black gold? I am upset that bad choices were made in the past. I am upset that I had no choice in those matters. However, I am not writing this to say "boo-hooo, poor me" - I am writing this to say "Damnit, this sucks, and we need to shape up or it's only going to get worse." Those who forget the past are fated to repeat it. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #8,697 by Another Scott 9/12/01 5:13:20 PM Reply	We don't give money to Egypt for oil. Should we give money to Egypt and Saudi Arabia so that we can keep the oil flowing? Hell no. Your rant :-) is getting a bit short on facts, IMHO. We (the USA) give Egypt a lot of money every year for the same reason we give Israel a lot of money every year (but we also give Israel a lot of other money for other reasons). It's part of our reward to them for the peace treaty that Egypt and Israel signed - the Camp David Accords. Egypt doesn't export oil. More [link\|http://www.ibiblio.org/sullivan/docs/CampDavidAccords.html\|here] and [link\|http://www.infoprod.co.il/country/egypt1a.htm\|here]. Cheers, Scott.
Post #8,707 by inthane-chan 9/12/01 6:01:34 PM Reply	Okay, I slipped on Egypt. But I still don't know that I agree with giving them money. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #8,735 by dmarker2 9/12/01 7:58:20 PM Reply	Re: What you said does have merit -just wrong time to say it I think emotion and pain are going to blot out rational observance. But yes, one can look at history and see some horrific political decisions that were made by successive US govts, but in mitigation, while there is international disagreement & conflict it doesn't matter what choices govts make, they will always be open to criticism and folly in choice. Sadly the US did get involved in fighting proxy wars but to argue the rights & wrongs of this, is an endless debate that takes one in never ending circles of logic, all fuelled by a strong desire on the part of big governments & entities to endure, sometimes at any cost. But don't be disheartened by the reaction to your points - they are quite valid. Cheers Doug
Post #8,736 by inthane-chan 9/12/01 8:07:54 PM Reply	Some times the best time to examine one's own actions... ...is in the depth of tragedy. If we only blame others for our wounds, and expurge our own complicity, then we cannot hope to learn hard lessons. If we can learn from the wrongs of our past, I hope we can turn things around and not repeat these mistakes again in this next century. Given human nature, I somehow doubt it. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #9,400 by tablizer 9/16/01 7:52:31 PM Reply	The story may read different if the Soviets had won >> I think emotion and pain are going to blot out rational observance. But yes, one can look at history and see some horrific political decisions that were made by successive US govts, but in mitigation, while there is international disagreement & conflict it doesn't matter what choices govts make, they will always be open to criticism and folly in choice. << Agreed. There will always be struggles, and the best[1] course of action today may indeed lead to future problems. But, nobody knows until they get there. [1] And mistakes were indeed made. That is a side-effect of having humans run the gov. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #8,754 by wharris2 9/12/01 9:57:21 PM Reply	Foreign aid in general We give foreign aid to a large number of countries. I disagree with this in general. Aid to third world nations usuallly goes into the pockets of the ruling junta, and there is no way in hell we should be funding them. Aid should go into direct aid, not in money. They take our assistance, then go to the so-called conference on racism and blast us with sixteen dozen verbal cannons. The hell with them. If there are crowds shouting "down with America", stop all aid. Screw the government. The government might give lip service "oh we hate this act of terrorism", but when there are crowds cheering the attacks, that's it. Cut them off. Find out who the bastards are, seek them out, and pursue them to the ends of the earth. And any countries who are contributing to them. Take them out. Nuke them if need be. I'm sorry, I am becoming one of the "nuke'm tiill they glow" faction. If Afghanistan is hiding the terrorist in charge of these plane bombings, nuke'm until they glow. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington

Welcome to IWETHEY!