Post #70,621
12/24/02 3:29:00 AM
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Microsoft ordered to ship more shitty software
[link|http://news.com.com/2100-1001-978786.html?tag=fd_lede1_hed|http://news.com.com/...?tag=fd_lede1_hed]
Much as I dislike the redmond mafia - this makes no sense to me.
They should be allowed to ship what they want. If they don't want to ship someone elses software as part of their distro - fine - let the hardware vendors integrate it.
Doing things to prevent integration isn't cricket - but this OTOH is a bit weird.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #70,643
12/24/02 9:17:18 AM
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Actually, the SHOULDN'T be allowed to ship what they want
What they WANT is to ship software that disables any semblance of competition, and Java, for all its warts, blemishes, and parochialness, is competition. Remember, Micros~1 is where it is because it broke the law. Repeatedly. Unabashedly. And unrepentently. The judge found a set and smacked them where they live...in the competitive marketplace. This is a good ruling; now both .Nyet and Java will have to stand (or fall) on their relative merits, not due to the manipulations of the marketplace by a feloneous corporation. As an aside...from the link: But industry trade group the Association for Competitive Technology took a dim view of the injunction, calling it anticompetitive.
"The central issue in this case is who is responsible for the failure of Java, and it is clear to anyone in our industry that Sun is responsible for that failure, not Microsoft," said the group's president, Jonathan Zuck. "Rather than take responsibility, they turn to the courts to pin the blame on others and force Microsoft to carry their product." It would have been nice if the article had the balls to mention that the misnamed "Association for Competitive Technology" was a Micros~1 front. jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #70,648
12/24/02 9:35:14 AM
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Badly phrased
What I meant to say is "Microsoft should be able to not ship anything they want".
Sorry - but you see what I mean? It seems ludicrous to force them to ship another company's software.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #70,652
12/24/02 9:45:40 AM
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Windows is an operating system (well, sorta)...
...not their personal fiefdom (in spite of what they would have you think). This judge in this case found that Micors~1's illegal anticompetitive behavior had skewed the playing field, and tailored a remedy. Remedies are not sugar pills, they are to correct something wrong, and correcting something is not always pleasant for the "host".
If Micros~1 is going to shut off avenues for Java to compete (which they are), then they need to be made to stop that. This is a very effective stopper!
Now if Java is going to shut off avenues for Java to compete (by incompetence, petulance, or sloth of Sun, or by being the wrong tool for the wrong task, or whatever), then this will certainly expose it, won't it? Then Micros~1 can crow "I tol' you so", and I'll hapilly listen. Until then, let's see if it does fail on its own merit (or lack thereof) (I rather think it won't; 300,000 developers can't all be wrong...)
jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #70,723
12/24/02 6:42:16 PM
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Happens all the time - look up "essential facility"
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #70,683
12/24/02 12:00:38 PM
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And you can bet SUN had help in hurting Java.
Way back before M$ "licensed" Java from SUN I was told directly by an M$ employee that M$ was on a mission to kill Java. I'd brought down a SUN book on Java 1.0 and when he saw it he said, "What's that?" I said, "It's a Java book." He looked at it, chuckled and said, "We're going to kill Java." I replied, "Why?" He, "Java has the potential for commoditizing the OS. We can't have that."
I do feel sorry for those fsckers who embraced Visual J++ though. But not very.
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Post #70,688
12/24/02 1:10:21 PM
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No' me...
I do feel sorry for those fsckers who embraced Visual J++ though. But not very. Not me...not at all! Serves them fucking right! Anybody who embraces a Micros~1 propriatery "language" deserves what they get..and that goes for their latest red-headed bastard C-pigpen! </rant ;-)> jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #70,695
12/24/02 2:04:16 PM
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They didn't need any help
From the beginning, Sun has only worked on making it work on Windows and Solaris. Other versions were released but the mac version was so laughably lame as to be completely unusable.
Swing remains laughably lame.
Rather than work on the core and make it good, Sun has been busy trying to take over the world with no less avarice than MS. While they like to characterize themselves as the good guys, I believe they ought to change their motto to "Sun, the other Microsoft".
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #70,712
12/24/02 4:36:46 PM
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They could have pulled it off, imo.
If they'd been a little less greedy up front. Which MS memo/email/whatever was it that Balmer sent to Gates that ran something like,
Balmer: It' amazing no one has made a serious run at us with Unix.
Gates: It's too late.
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Post #71,390
12/29/02 9:38:28 PM
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I tend to agree that Sun went off the rails re Java ...
Self originally joined the Java Lobby board & fought tooth & nail against MS blatant attempts to carry out Bill's stated strategy of "cut off their air supply".
In time there was a growing concern that Sun thought they had the means to take control of the Java/Desktop - IBM had stepped in in 1995/6 and done a comprehensive deal with Sun that allowed IBM to use Java with zero license fee if IBM contributed large portions of technology & effort to boost Java as a viable Internet technology.
IBM contributed more than 50% of Java - the Internationalization, serialization, Enterprise Java Beans - a massive infusion. Part of the understanding with Sun was that Java would then be handed over to a standards committee - once Java had taken hold, Sun backed out & then tried to force IBM to take a license for a 'new' Java Java2 (with Swing) but IBM had a good set of lawyers who stood up to Sun on the use of core Java & Sun backed down. But IBM was did drop the Sun proprietary Swing GUI widgets in favour of a competing set.
IBM then played out a counter strategy that was largely responsible for kicking the feet out from under Sun (Sun's shares are now at a multi-year low). That strategy (also amied at Microsoft) was for IBM to back Linux & to put its money where its mouth is by implementing Linux accross all platforms & fully promoting it as well as porting all key IBM software to Linux. Sales of Solaris slumped & are unlikely to recover. Sun got painted into a corner & is struggling to find a way out.
Anyway - self was a big Sun supporter up until they 'weakened' Java with their antics. Actually wrote several Java articles for them (some still on their website). Despite what has happened I fully applaud the judges decision & hope it is made to stick.
Cheers
Doug Marker
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Post #71,494
12/30/02 11:16:49 AM
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Don't look for it to stick.
M$ has the money, and the time to tie this up in the courts until they find friendlies on the bench. And by then it'll be too late, ... again.
God, I hate this industry.
bcnu,
Mikem
who is still cursing the day he ever thought computers were "neat".
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Post #71,923
1/1/03 8:55:39 PM
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..that $%^&__ Adam Osborne__:(
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Post #70,644
12/24/02 9:17:33 AM
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My take
As long as their OEM contracts are protected under NDA, all they'd have to do is publicly claim that the OEMs are free to install what they want, then indivisually contract with each one to not actually do it. Thus the only way to ensure something gets installed is to require them to install it themselves.
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Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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