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New Well, isn't that a fine how-di-do?
I assure you those were NOT the words I actually used.

Client had a hard disk going out (no backups, of course), and two urgent projects for the weekend. It was another of those 20-Gig Fujitsus with the self-destructing chips.

Drive ran well enough cold, so I chilled it while I preped a new 40-Gig. The 20 had two partitions but the second wasn't used any more. I booted on the old one, and XCopied the old to the new with /s/h/r/e/c. Shut down and booted on a DOS floppy. With XTree, I removed attributes from \\Windows on the new drive and recopied \\Windows\\*.* to get the registries over.

Next, I set up the new drive as master and installed Windows 98 on it over the existing files and registries. Voila! a perfect working Windows with no need to reinstall any software or licenses.

Worked fine for a week - then - the Program from Hell struck. The old drive had used BootMagic (shipped with PartitionMagic) to dual boot between the Windows 98 partition and a DOS/Windows 3.1 partition (to run an engineering program that only ran under 3.1).

Now, BootMagic had never been installed on the new drive, but somehow some remenant of it awakened, announced that the Partition Table was damaged, and kindly "adjusted" it to match the old 20-Gig drive, and also corrected the BIOS Parameter Block to match. "Invalid Media" was about all you counld get out of the hard disk, which now contained a new 70 page document that was desperately needed "right now!" - and there was no backup.

Time to try to remember how to hand edit partition tables and BIOS Parameter Blocks.

Since Symantec has run everyone else out of busines, I have to use Norton DiskEdit on newer hardware. Got the location where the partition started and a count of the FAT length, etc. Eventually got it all back up and running.

Now, for anyone who ever has to do this, Norton Diskedit has a nifty Advanced Recovery function that allows you to mod the parameters and test to see if they're right. DON'T USE THIS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK. Parameters that test out OK are WRONG (in multiple places). They will not actually work. Parameters that will work do not test successfuly. Typical Norton crapola.

The FAT table is easy on a "use all and make bootable" disk. For the BIOS Parameter Block I set up and examined a couple of similar drives, then edited correct parameters directly into the BIOS Parameter Block. Norton DiskEdit does do that part just fine.

Client said he is now going to think about some kind of backup system.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Couple details, please -
I booted on the old one, and XCopied the old to the new with /s/h/r/e/c. Shut down and booted on a DOS floppy. With XTree, I removed attributes from \\Windows on the new drive and recopied \\Windows\\*.* to get the registries over.
I appreciate that you wanted to get the most off in the least time, so I guess this is the drill for that (?)

Ahh.. yes XTree; I've been remiss in not setting up 3.0 to boot and run from one floppy, which I think means dropping some stuff. Unclear to me whether it can accommodate a DOS 7 SYS and all - with compression garbage omitted of course (?) I've been making-do with list.com because it's small, and the CD setups of 9.x have made that lore to fade a bit. (On the 486/W3.11 I have somewhere a cute tiny .bat which can find any file on a drive using attrib w/ some switches).

So then you nuked all the r-a-s-h in the new drive's \\Windows directory, then Xcopied \\Windows from the old drive. So the new 98 install on new drive - from your POV was mainly just to detect the hdwre, setup MBR etc.?

Overwriting with old setup would get you any Registry garbage accumulated BUT obviate all the install dances with files in \\System etc.. Izzat it? You'd also get the old detected hardware settings but it's the same machine and I guess the Registry leaves all the HD params to the BIOS, so the different HD is no problem.

If the drive weren't flaky - would you have ghosted the old setup and just installed that on new? VS 98 cold install? (Just curious; not looking for a step-by-step here) There just seem several ways to do this, and I expect you have eliminated many, for cause.

..and they are Just Now beginning to think of the word backup, eh?


Ashton
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New The objective is . . .
. . to move everything to a new hard disk without having to reinstall any drivers, software or otherwise touch a properly working** Windows installation. This particularly saves time when the owner has lost all the drivers (almost always), and essential when the owner "can't find all those software installations CDs" (most of the time).

The XCopy gets just about everything but the registries and other open Windows files (the /c parameter is essential so it keeps on copying after errors (such as not being able to copy a registry file)). The files it can't copy are then copied booted to DOS.

Installing the same version of Windows 98 onto this disk should adopt all registry settings, hardware drivers, licenses, etc. It won't even ask for the registration key (but you'd better have gotten that from the registry anyway, just in case something goes wrong).

Yes, the registries have nothing on the MBR, BIOS Parameter Block or any other low level disk stuff, so the new disk is no problem even if it's a radically different size.

Now, if you put this new disk in a new machine, you're going to have to play with drivers a bit, but that's usually no big problem - and the software installs will still be OK. In the same machine, nothing should notice that anything has changed (except there's more room).

If the source disk is really flakey, you may have to just XCopy the Windows directory structure, install Windows and boot on the new drive, then XCopy directories one by one. I've had to restart Windows as many as twenty times to get everythng from a dying disk.

I've never used ghost, because it requries too much preparation, a properly working machine, etc. By time a machine comes to me it's either too late, not networked or something. My methods (I have several) are easy, require minimal preparation, and work most of the time.

If you have to blow the registries, that makes things a lot more complex, but you can still preserve the desktop, start menus and such. A lot of icons won't work until you reinstall the software, though. I have to emphasize that to the client because the machine looks exactly the same.

Xtree Gold can be made to work from a single boot floppy with plenty of room for other utilities. All you really need are the basic functions and the editor. Generally it can open only a single subdirectory at a time on todays systems due to memory limitations, but that's usually enough.

With Windows up and running, use ZTree, a much more modern interpretation of XTree without the limitations (also available for OS/2), but it won't run under DOS. ZTree is great for doing copy operations Explorer doesn't support or support well. I use a combination of all three of these tools when reconstituting a system after major surgery.

I've found some Windows95 installations cannot be reconstituted no matter what, you have to upgrade to Windows 98 to get the machine to run again.

**for Microsoft's definition of "properly working".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: The objective is . . .
Yes, it works, and you can even move to a new machine without much trouble - what I do is delete everything once Windows sputters to a start on the new machine in Safe Mode - delete all the system devices, etc. This has no effect on the running machine. When Windows restarts, one is treated to quite a show as the entire caboodle is reinstalled appropriate to the new machine.
-drl
New You mean delete all devices, don't you?
That is, in the System Manager.

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Re: You mean delete all devices, don't you?
No, I mean delete the system devices, the ones with the same icon as a DOS prompt :) (Sorry). Windows 9x has wonderful discovery code. It will install things in order until a reboot is needed, then continue onward - it's really impressive. The upshot is, if you know what you are doing, you can rip a drive out of a 9x machine and stick it in some random PC, and chances are it will be fully functional in a few hours.
-drl
New Dunno if this will help.
Here was my old "move Win9x to another drive without horking anything" technique.

Set swap file size to 0.
Boot off the original drive to safe mode.
Get a command prompt
xcopy32 c:\\*.* d:\\ /h /e /c /k

When this is done, swap drives, run FDISK to set the new drive as primary, and boot. Never had this technique fail once for me for all flavors of Win9x, except WinME, which I haven't used it against. YMMV.
Gimli's Rules for Surviving in Middle Earth #43: When attempting to destroy an artifact, remember to use somebody else's axe.
New Thanks all for nostrums - added to tool kit.
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Good Ideas are timeless! + >P1-166 search< question
Resurrecting a P1-133 for a friend's use. Has some IBM 1.5 GB C-drive and a 16 GB Maxtor - apparently designed for streaming video ['designed' ??]. I thought the 1.5 sounded like a stepper -from '96 though?- subjectively slow, running Beast-98 w/ 64 MB. SpinRite proved it: 26 mSec random access; half the Maxtor speed on burst test; 1/3 the speed on sustained xfer. (Maxtor clocked 12 mSec random) IBM OK for archiving and disconnecting.

So I used yours & Thane's neat scheme, wiped the Maxtor and moved the stuff over - though I decided on a nice acronym: /s/h/r/e/c/k/ after scoping the /? file. Worked like a charm for 10,0xx files. Tomorrow will do the swap. I noted that: if you just copy Xcopy32.exe (and .mod) to a floppy -- you get an attenuated switch listing, without the handy ones; guess you need a win32 api running for the fancy Boolean?

Thanks folks !! Saved lots of time. I bloody well didn't want to run through all that finding CDs, reconfig blah blah - when it has all the stuff needed for this minimal user, installed by an ept person.

If anybody has a Pentium1-166 CPU lying about, will pay in Euros or $.. (is there faster, for that pin-grid socket?) - I paid no attention to the 233s etc. so dunno when sockets got changed. Like to recapture the Ferrari Hayes Optima [RIP Hayes..] from this pedestrian use and stick in a Beast-modem card from somewhere; I imagine not a good plan for a P-133. Maybe not even for a -166?

PS ident - it's an ASUS P/I-P55TP4N mother, and a newer Promise Ultra33 HD ctrlr. (The IBM isn't ATA; Maxtor is) 4 slots filled with 16M 72-pin SIMMs, Fast Page or EDO. I doubt anyone has 4 x 32M ones lying about. On to Mozilla


Ashton
Her previous: 486-66 with 14.4 modem.. hey, some people ain't got no dough.
I love saving stuff from premature burial along with last November's crop; this one donated by a decent sort - a UQC here, even ;-)
New P166 is it.
Found a manual for that MB at:
[link|http://wwwbzs.tu-graz.ac.at/edv/prodinfo/asus/p55tp4n.pdf|http://wwwbzs.tu-gra.../asus/p55tp4n.pdf]

From it:
Multi-Speed support: Supports one 75-166MHz Pentium CPU on a ZIF Socket 7.


And no, don't happen to have a 166 laying around.

Edit: Asus' website lists 2 BIOS updates for that MB:

[link|http://www.asus.com/support/download/item.aspx?ModelName=P/I-P55TP4|http://www.asus.com/...elName=P/I-P55TP4]

You might consider applying them, could be Y2K mods.
-----
Steve
Expand Edited by Steve Lowe May 29, 2003, 10:39:19 AM EDT
New Lemme check tonight
Might have one (or 2!)
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
New XCOPY vs. XCOPY32
If Windows is running and you invoke xcopy, it calls on the Win32 API functions for copying. If Windows is not running, then it runs as a standalone DOS program. (This only applies to Win 9x/ME). The programs xcopy.exe and xcopy32.exe are identical.

-drl
New Thanks - clearer.
New Used P1-166 CPU
A local place near me, has one for sale for $6, or actually a whole batch of them. [link|http://www.pconramp.com/Amazing/items.asp?CartId=66790-ACCWARE-21DBPWK340&Cc=UPI&tpc=|http://www.pconramp....WK340&Cc=UPI&tpc=]

If that link does not work, try going to [link|http://www.pconramp.com/|http://www.pconramp.com/] and then browsing Used Processors and then choosing P1 processors.

I hope that this works for you and the person who you are replacing the CPU for.


"If you're going to cheat, cheat fair. If there's anything I hate it's a crooked crook!" -Moe Howard
New Thanks, Norman.. gotta get tuit. Eventually.
New .. but gang aft aglee
(sigh) Nomenclature Error: The IBM was the Good, fast HD; the Maxtor the dog - And.. for the first time ever, I witnessed (auditioned?) the dying of a drive, precisely after I'd (re-transferred) off the last useful bits among the detritus! Very next boot, prepping for a clean install of 98-lited SE: Promise ctrlr spins the little /_\\ thingie, lookin for What is? on that port; finally finds the ID and the Maxtor stone-head crunches and crunches and ultimately, GENERAL FAILURE! (Now a Valued employee of the DC Cabal, under Rummy).

As to the xfer: well, it was 98% ? successful; copied all the files (I wasn't willing to count..) and when swapped to Master: booted rapidly to a C:> repeatedly, using up my tolerance for HIMEM.SYS not found, esp. after I saw the diverse causes (and frequency of appearance) of this symptom, Googlewise. After a few stabs at adding the explicit Device command in config yada yada, being sure it WAS in fact THERE -- I took this as nature's way of reminding me that a clean 98-lite SE install is the *best* innoculation against the M$-OSPOS disease. RRR

Knoppix not an option for this user + eBay. (Which some Need - merely to feed selves in this Repo-trashed expiring economy; especially if they are *old* too. So don't knock it.) It's why I have to get this sucker running adequately, and all the detritus stripped out from the get-go.

Will have to try this dance again sometime, on a spare HD - nice puzzle, faking out BillyCo's studied, intricate attempts to make life hard for All, at All times.

Gawd what a MASSIVE Universal Waster of the Time for a Life - *ALL* Billyware was invented to BE! Few can afford to *pay* for the suffering entailed, so must buy the latest crap preinstalled, instead of repair: Billy AND bin-Laden both Won. (But Windoze we did to Ourselves)



Ashton
Fuck You Billy, Bally and your ilk.
New Ashton, are you still looking for the P-166?
I found one in a retired PC. Haven't tested it explicity, but AFAIK, the PC was still running when it was decommissioned. If you want it, drop me a note at scoenye@compaqnet.be
New Thanks, yes. Note in the \ufffdther -
New Just a follow-up on the original post.
The program that blew out the partition table and boot data wasn't Partition Magic, it was Symantec's Norton AntiVirus - and it did it again in another week (but I had all the details written down and fixed it in a couple minutes).

It appears NAV wakes up every week or so and looks at the boot info and partition table. It see's they're different from something it has stored somewhere and says, "EEEEEEEK! A Virus must have done this", and restores the old boot data and partition table.

Needless to say, I unistalled Norton and removed every trace of it I could find. Told the client he could reinstall it at his own risk.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: Just a follow-up on the original post.
With some regularity, a co-worker or friend will ask me to fix a PC. Almost always, NAV is installed. The first thing I do is remove it. The users are astonised at the performance boost. I tell them about removing NAV, and strongly urge them to avoid ALL anti-virus programs, since they are all useless. A little instruction on safe use and floppies is enough protection. I usually point out that Windows is the real culprit, and that virus attacks against Linux are virtually impossible.

NAV is surely the worst of a bad lot. What a despicable program.
-drl
New Safe use and floppies?
I haven't seen a floppy based virus for five years. Everything is email and network now, and some are very sneaky. Many will infect just by appearing in the Outlook email preview window. They can even be implated by visiting a hostile Web site.

Expecting normal Windows users to not get infected is futile. I seldom see a computer that doesn't have at least a few infected files on it these days. Some antivirus program is needed.

I agree that Norton is the worst of the lot. Any product that's "Norton" anything, I avoid like the plague. They are all designed to be "smarter than the user", and put their hooks deep into the operating system. If something actually does go wrong, they can be highly destructive.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Missing word
Safe email use. Including disabling the preview pane.

Floppy virii can still be a plague in schools - so kids bring them home.

I usually download the "safe mode" scanners for particular families. They do as good a job as the full products.

I would be nice to acutally have a working virus program. I haven't found one that's worth the performance hit.
-drl
     Well, isn't that a fine how-di-do? - (Andrew Grygus) - (21)
         Couple details, please - - (Ashton) - (6)
             The objective is . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 Re: The objective is . . . - (deSitter) - (2)
                     You mean delete all devices, don't you? - (static) - (1)
                         Re: You mean delete all devices, don't you? - (deSitter)
                 Dunno if this will help. - (inthane-chan)
             Thanks all for nostrums - added to tool kit. -NT - (Ashton)
         Good Ideas are timeless! + >P1-166 search< question - (Ashton) - (9)
             P166 is it. - (Steve Lowe)
             Lemme check tonight - (jbrabeck)
             XCOPY vs. XCOPY32 - (deSitter) - (1)
                 Thanks - clearer. -NT - (Ashton)
             Used P1-166 CPU - (orion) - (1)
                 Thanks, Norman.. gotta get tuit. Eventually. -NT - (Ashton)
             .. but gang aft aglee - (Ashton)
             Ashton, are you still looking for the P-166? - (scoenye) - (1)
                 Thanks, yes. Note in the \ufffdther - -NT - (Ashton)
         Just a follow-up on the original post. - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
             Re: Just a follow-up on the original post. - (deSitter) - (2)
                 Safe use and floppies? - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                     Missing word - (deSitter)

Why not just name him Hitler B. Evil?
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