Need some help makin' bread

Post #6,911 by kmself 8/27/01 10:53:42 PM Reply	Need some help makin' bread No, not dough, bread. I've taken to doing some baking in my copious free time. Got a pretty mean whole-wheat loaf going, do it in a 9" pyrex cassarole dish. I call it my Paul Simon loaf: it's soft in the middle -- has a center of uncooked dough in it, while the outer bread tends toward the dry side. So, any of you closet bakers out there got a suggestion? I'm baking for 25-30 minutes at 450F. Thinking that maybe a cooler, slower bake might be the right thing -- say 45m at 350F. Or is it the glass bakeware that's not handling the heat right? I've also kicked off a bit of sourdough starter, so I'll be trying that in another day or so, will report on results...and if you don't hear from me, call the poison control center ;-) -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #6,915 by static 8/27/01 11:15:59 PM Reply	HOWTO-bread-makin.txt Buy bread machine. Read instruction book. Purchase requisite ingredients. Follow recipe. Wait. Remove loaf from bread machine. Disconnect and clean bread machine. Wade. :-) "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #6,918 by kmself 8/28/01 12:37:06 AM Reply	Blasphemer! -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #6,919 by static 8/28/01 12:56:47 AM Reply	Oh well in that case... Some things I'd try for your older style bakery technique. Try a metal dish. Remember to grease or line it. Are you using the right sort of yeast? Although this is unlikely to affect the baking, are you using the right amount of salt? A loaf of bread requires more than most people think. Yes, try a slower oven. 30 minutes sounds way too fast. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #6,925 by wharris2 8/28/01 3:23:10 AM Reply	Now that's my kinda guy! French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
Post #7,034 by static 8/28/01 9:12:56 PM Reply	My parents have a bread machine. :-) "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #6,924 by Steve Lowe 8/28/01 3:20:01 AM Reply	Google, my friend, Google. A quick Google for "making bread" turned this likely suspect up: [link\|http://www.bakingmasters.com/bakery/bread.htm\|http://www.bakingma...ry/bread.htm] Good Luck! ----- Steve
Post #6,934 by Another Scott 8/28/01 7:39:22 AM Reply	Measure carefully. Longer/Cooler oven. Different pan. Hi Karsten, You've got an "interesting" combination there. :-) I think you're cooking the bread too fast and using an inappropriate pan. It may also be too wet. Bread is a sensitive beast. The results depend a great deal on: 1) how much water is in the dough. 2) the amount of yeast, 3) the amount of salt, 4) the oven temperature. Measure these ingredients carefully (I use a digital scale to measure water for my breadmachine). Also, you might want to try a different pan. A standard bread pan has a square cross-section so it's just a couple or so inches from the center of the loaf to the pan. In a 9" pan the center is farther from the edge and will cook slower. So it'll need more time (if everything else is equal), so you'll need to use a lower temperature than you're using. It's best to start with a known recipe and see how that goes. I'd suggest: 1) Get a standard bread pan (e.g. an Al-foil pan from your local supermarket if you don't want to spend much yet). Get an oven thermometer too. If you don't want to buy a pan, try a loaf which doesn't need a pan like Italian or French bread. You can cook it on a baking stone or a cookie sheet. The dough is stiff enough that it won't collapse the way normal bread dough will. 2) Start with a standard whole wheat recipe. Measure the ingredients carefully, especially the water. Glass/liquid measuring cups are better for liquids than dry cups, but they're not calibrated all that well either. Edmund Scientific has a variety of electronic scales which are pretty good. I got mine (2 kg with 1 g resolution (also does ounces) for $99) there a few years ago. 3) Check your oven temperature. If you have an old electric don't be surprised if the temperature is off 50 degrees from what you expect. I use a set of baking stones in my oven (on the bottom shelf) to try to even out the temperature and minimize the radiant heat (from the heating element) seen by the bottom of the pans. It's necessary for keeping the bottoms of cookies from burning. If that WW recipe turns out well, then start experimenting. If it doesn't, then try to figure out what's wrong. A cup or so of oats is a good addition sometimes - it makes the dough moister and more substantial yet with a smooth texture. Hope this helps. Good luck. Cheers, Scott.
Post #7,029 by kmself 8/28/01 6:55:14 PM Reply	Dough! (apologies to Groening) I'm decidedly winging the recipie. Think it's less water sensitive and more time/temp sensitive in this case. I'll report on next batch. Measurement is largely volume, I may invest in a scale. I tend to judge by feel. And, yes, I'm giving the dough a good 10 minute kneed. May be shorting the rise time a bit (few minutes), but I'm working on my patience ;-) Yeast is decidedly active, I also ensure that it is started with 110F water. I've got breadpans, but prefer round loaves ;-) My cookbook (Betty Crocker) includes a Deli loaf recipie using a similar Pyrex dish, but at lower/longer cook specs. Oven actually seems pretty accurate -- it's gas, though smaller than average -- I can't get a full-sized cookie sheet into it. The 9" cassarole pretty much fills it, though I could probably put a standard loaf in sideways in fron of it. I've got a 3" dial-face thermometer that pretty much confirms the set heat. May try cooking stones. Thanks all for the tips. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #6,957 by boxley 8/28/01 10:50:12 AM Reply	knead more time. at least 10 minutes Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #6,966 by Meerkat 8/28/01 11:45:04 AM Reply	Post some over to us when you get it right, won't you :-) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #6,974 by hnick 8/28/01 12:19:30 PM Reply	A couple of things.... First, proof your yeast. Take some of the water you are going to use and heat/cool it to 90F - 110F, add a little sugar and your yeast. If the water is too cold, the yeast won't develop, too hot and it dies. You should see tiny bubbles when the yeast develops. If you don't see bubbles in 15 minutes or so, pitch it and try again. Second, depending on the flour, you may have to work the dough more to develop the glutins (protein strands that help hold in CO2 from the yeast and raise the bread.)You should get 2 good rises before the dough goes in the oven. I was taught to use a hotter oven for breads, so I think you are in the right ballpark there. Good luck, Hugh
Post #6,976 by addison 8/28/01 12:25:44 PM Reply	RTFM. You need a good bread cookbook. I've got one at home, I'll look for it (since I haven't been baking much), and get you the title. Lots of recipies, and explanations for how stuff works. I was making a lot of bread (especially sourdough) a couple of years ago. One thing that makes a BIG difference in texture is to have a mixing machine. What I did by hand was OK, but mom with the big mix-master's results were much much more even. do it in a 9" pyrex cassarole dish. I call it my Paul Simon loaf: it's soft in the middle -- has a center of uncooked dough in it, while the outer bread tends toward the dry side. Yeah, that's a bad pan to be using. :) Get some bread pans. in some cases, you might put those on a flat pan (for increase heat transfer). Toss in a handfull of ice cubes, or put a small pan of water in there if you want a softer crust. Trek on down to the Wallyworld and get some metal pans (I find nonstick not to be that needed, if you butter (or heck, use pam) in the pan. Let me get that book, and it'll point you the right way. Addison
Post #6,985 by cforde 8/28/01 1:14:33 PM Reply	hie thee to a book seller This is the book you want [link\|http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=189545509X&vm=\|Breads] by Company's Coming. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #7,023 by bepatient 8/28/01 6:22:02 PM Reply	I will assume that... ...at least the mix was from a recipe....and that the recipe probably called for a different style pan.. You need the right pan. All the other advice here is good... ...but the pan is critical...pyrex doesn't transfer heat as well as the (in general) aluminum baking pans. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #7,050 by wharris2 8/28/01 11:46:59 PM Reply	Prepackaged stuff I have had no problems baking pre-packaged beer-battered bread. Dunno, maybe you need to use beer rather than water. :=) French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
Post #7,109 by kmself 8/29/01 3:14:50 PM Reply	Got it New batch last night, two loaves, perfect. Olive-rosmary whole wheat (half-half whole/unbleached). Part of the problem was my omitting the 2 Tbsp of molassas and not making up the sugar content elsewhere. I think I was starving the yeast. Added an extra 2 Tbsp sugar to the mix and got it right, may try honey as well. 45 minutes with a hot start (preheat oven to 450, drop to 375 for baking) seemed to get the right mix of good crust and tender, but cooked, interior. No more wet spot ;-) Tried also a mix of baking utensils: the Pyrex dish and a breadpan. Results appear largely identical for both, so I don't think that makes a difference. Also double-checked stove temp accuracy, it appears to be dead on. Talked with Addison last night about the BSS phenomenon, am thinking of a sourdough whole wheat walnut olive honey oat loaf next ;-) -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #7,111 by addison 8/29/01 3:24:43 PM Reply	Syndrome phenomenon?
Post #7,112 by a6l6e6x 8/29/01 3:28:27 PM Reply	All Right! You've got it figured out. You've got to feed the yeast, alright. And if you use salt, you need to use more yeast to get an equivalent rise. I've worn out two baking machines, myself. I've made all the permutations of mistakes, including forgetting to put in the water! That's not one you are likely to make with the manual approach. As great as the bread tastes, the "shelf life" just isn't there compared to commercial bread. The wife is still on the Atkins diet, so I can't dispatch the bread quick enough on my own. Alex Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel. -- Anne Frank
Post #7,115 by Another Scott 8/29/01 4:26:25 PM Reply	Quit holding out already. What's the recipe? :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #7,237 by kmself 8/30/01 2:19:54 PM Reply	Bread Recipie 3 Tbsp fast-acting dry yeast 2 Tbsp sugar 2 cups H2O, 105-120F Combine above, let stand up through 15 minutes. 3 cups unbleached white flour 3 cups whole wheat flour 2 tsp salt 2 Tbsp sugar 1/2 cup powdered milk 2 Tbsp butter/margerine, melted 1/2 tin (8oz) chopped olives 2-3 Tbsp rosemary Combine (mostly) dry ingredients above in large mixing bowl. Stir in yeast & water slowly. Mix with cooking spoon to point of no further luck. Dump on floured board and kneed ten minutes. I keep an extra 1/2 cup flour, and some water, on hand to even out the moisture of the dough, this varies highly with weather conditions. Put back in mixing bowl, cover (I use a dampened dishtowel), and let rise 1 hour in a warm place (I use the oven). Punch down, kneed another minute or so, roll out, shape to loaf, and put in well-greased cooking pan. I sprinkle pan bottom with corn flour. Let rise another hour. Preheat oven to 450F. Brush bread with salted water (2 Tbsp to 1 cup), place bread low and center, lower temperature to 375 (this gives a slightly crustier loaf). Bake 40-45 minutes. Remove from oven and remove loaves from baking pan. Let stand or eat hot ;-) -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #7,238 by Another Scott 8/30/01 2:25:03 PM Reply	Thanks. Sounds great.
Post #7,273 by a6l6e6x 8/30/01 5:09:40 PM Reply	Yum! Must be a 3 lb. loaf! Feeding an Army? Alex Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel. -- Anne Frank
Post #7,282 by kmself 8/30/01 7:17:35 PM Reply	Loafer If an army travels on its stomach, I can cover a lot of ground ;-) I'm kinda into the "massive and dense" school of breadmaking (as well as some other things, or so I'm told). Yeah, that's a pretty hefty loaf. Actually, I got two of them out of this batch, both slightly slimmer than I'd hoped for. I've started the first sourdough batch. Starter's quite active, keeps overflowing the starter jar I have for it after I fed it (silly me thought 3/4 cup milk & flour wasn't quite enough, rounded up to a full cup). It's yeast starter, BTW, want to try a batch w/ yoghurt later. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #7,285 by a6l6e6x 8/30/01 7:59:53 PM Reply	Re: Loafer Well, I've saved your recipe and will try it out when I get back from vacation. I've made a variety of breads, but never made bread with olives. It's intriguing. The first time, I'll try to half the recipe. Alex Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel. -- Anne Frank
Post #7,450 by kmself 9/1/01 11:36:33 AM Reply	Recipie was doubled The original recipe was for half what I'd baked. Halving should go fine. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #7,478 by boxley 9/1/01 10:04:36 PM Reply	throw some stale heineken into the sourdough Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #7,198 by Yendor 8/30/01 10:42:20 AM Reply	Woohoo! Now, for the topper. Go out and get some extra virgin olive oil. Dump it all into a sauce pan, toss it on the stove on the lowest heat setting your stove's got. Dump in a bunch of garlic cloves. 10-12 should suffice. Also a bunch of fresh rosemary. Heat and stir occasionally for 10-15 minutes. Don't boil it, but you want to get the flavor out of the spices. Remove from heat, remove the spices, and bottle. After it's cool, toss some oil on a plate, then pour balsamic vinegar into the mix. Take fresh bread, break it up, and dip into your concoction. -YendorMike "The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by the skeptics or the cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need people who dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
Post #7,200 by Meerkat 8/30/01 10:51:54 AM Reply	Stop it, I'm drooling! :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #7,852 by mhuber 9/6/01 3:35:48 PM Reply	Any coatings? It's been a long time since I baked bread without using a mchine, so I don't remember the specifics. But painting the surface of the loaf with various edible substances can have a profound effect on the results. Things I tried (and unfortunately I don't remember which did what) that had nice effects included * water (that surprised me - I thought it would boil off too fast to do anything) * milk * egg - whites, yolk, mixed, whipped, the results varied * butter (I do remember that one - much softer crust) * oil Seriously, the coating makes far more difference than I expected. But what you are describing is a pretty standard result, for any food, of too high a temperature. I'd drop the temp and increase the time. And possibly (if the lower temp doesn't brown things the way I like) kick the heat up at the end of the process. And you are hearing this from a guy who likes to cook hot and fast. Except for starting smoking my Thanksgiving turkey on Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning. Also, when you are rising it, you do have a damp cloth over it, right? I've had bread go in the over with the outside already too dry. White guys in suits know best - Pat McCurdy
Post #8,003 by kmself 9/8/01 5:58:33 PM Reply	Salt water: 2Tbsp in 3/4 cup, warm I like a solid crust. I've been basting the bread with a salt-water solution, it adds a nice crust, and gives a nice salty flavor to it (I'm not a salt nut, but this is where it hits the spot). Oil (olive) added to loaf softened crust considerably, or so it seemed. I'm thinking a baking stone or something to even out heat might also help. Small oven, actually does pretty well, but probably pretty uneven. Latest results have been quite good. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Post #8,038 by kmself 9/9/01 2:58:27 AM Reply	Sourdough, TNG Starting to use my second round of sourdough -- first time 'round it really wasn't very flavorful. This time the starter and sponge have a definite tang, though I'm not sure how it will carry over to the finished goods. I'll have a report sometime tomorrow. This is a brand new batch of starter I'd put together about two weeks ago, yeast method. Found a number of good online resources, including the [link\|http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html\|Sourdough FAQ], which provides a lot of background. Cool thing about sourdough baking is it's so interdisciplinary: physics, chemistry, biology, and sociology, all wrapped up in one package. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?

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