Editing, please.

Post #66,141 by Brandioch 12/2/02 1:41:30 PM Reply	Editing, please. Because Europe has neither the will nor the ability to guard its own paradise and keep it from being overrun, spiritually as well as physically, by a world that has yet to accept the rule of "moral consciousness," it has become dependent on America's willingness to use its military might to deter or defeat those around the world who still believe in power politics. But the US is talking about a pre-emptive invasion. Isn't that the definition of "power politics"?
Post #66,214 by marlowe 12/2/02 5:56:40 PM Reply	No, that's the definition of being responsible. By your way of - for lack of a better term - thinking, anybody who applies antibiotics ruthlessly and with malice aforethought to poor defenseless plague bacteria is engaging in power politics. The trouble with your sort is you understand neither power nor politics. Nor responsibility, for that matter. I think it's because all these are corollaries of the notion of cause and effect, which also seems beyond the grasp of these souls. I for one do not believe in letting nature run its course in all circumstances. NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea. "What must it feel like to lose an election to a retarded monkey?" - Andrew Sullivan "The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #66,244 by boxley 12/2/02 7:52:07 PM Reply	sorry that has been taken you cant let nature run wild Governor Walter (wally) Hickel of Alaska thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,247 by Brandioch 12/2/02 8:09:48 PM Reply	o/~ We are the world, We are the children o/~ By your way of - for lack of a better term - thinking, anybody who applies antibiotics ruthlessly and with malice aforethought to poor defenseless plague bacteria is engaging in power politics. Not if the bacteria are in your body. Now, if you force your "medicine" upon someone else, that is power politics. I am reminded of an episode of The X Files where a certain insane carpenter(?) was administering lobotomies to unwilling beneficiaries. Now, if you want to do it TO YOURSELF, I see no problem with that. The problem you have is that you don't seem to understand that it is "reasonable" and even "right" for other people to own bits of this Earth and to do whatever they want on those bits of Earth.
Post #66,254 by boxley 12/2/02 8:52:41 PM Reply	So you changed your mind on oil drilling eh? congrats, private property is provate property and so the piece of ANWAR that is soley native owned can be drilled and help domestic oil production. Glad you changed your mind. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,267 by Brandioch 12/2/02 9:27:22 PM Reply	sigh Yep, private property is private property. And you can do anything you want on your private property. As long as you don't cause any damage to anyone else's private property. Or to areas that you don't own. congrats, private property is provate property and so the piece of ANWAR that is soley native owned can be drilled and help domestic oil production. Sure. As long as the impact is restricted to that property. Now, our record of oil and environment isn't that great. Also, so what if we produce more oil, domestically. Does that mean we're going to reduce our foreign consumption? I don't think so.
Post #66,304 by deSitter 12/2/02 11:54:41 PM Reply	This Is All Horseshit Out animal imperative is to control the energy resources - like a bunch of animals around a carcass - push enough competitors away and you get to eat. Otherwise you starve. Unless you are a buzzard. A strong buzzard. The weak buzzards get eaten by the strong buzzards. But then, in the end, the buzzard becomes worm food. Or fly food. Lots and lots of flies. We want the oil. Period. -drl
Post #66,424 by Brandioch 12/3/02 12:25:26 PM Reply	True, for animals. With animal intelligence. But we are an exception as we have a mind that is capable of advanced thought and extrapolation. We want the oil. Period. Exactly. Now, my position is that this is NOT the best course of action, long term. Our FIRST step should be to REDUCE our usage. To make the existing supply last longer. Our SECOND step should be to start developing alternative sources.
Post #66,324 by boxley 12/3/02 12:55:21 AM Reply	what yer math is worse than mine!!!! Also, so what if we produce more oil, domestically. Does that mean we're going to reduce our foreign consumption? I don't think so. if current domestic production is 47% of domestic and ANWR is 25% of current domestic production then imported oil which is 53% of needs will be reduced by 25% of 47% roughly what we buy from the saudis.12% more or less a few barrels. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,426 by Brandioch 12/3/02 12:29:29 PM Reply	Try again. That was a prediction. I predicted that we wouldn't reduce our foreign consumption. And that has been one of the key issues regarding this. No one can say that we're going to cut X barrels from our imports IF we drill here.
Post #66,428 by boxley 12/3/02 12:32:56 PM Reply	supply and demand every barrel of oil pumped here is one less to buy from foreign producers thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,440 by Brandioch 12/3/02 2:56:14 PM Reply	Yes, in an extremely simplistic view. Or it is one barrel to sell.
Post #66,443 by boxley 12/3/02 3:03:50 PM Reply	doesnt really matter does it? supply and demand and the leverage of a further 12% of our oil needs coming from in house is certainly simplistic, that is not a negative reason. I find it interesting that you have a religeous preoccupation against drilling when you seem rather against dogma replacing thought in other areas. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,457 by Brandioch 12/3/02 5:00:57 PM Reply	Again, you have incorrect assumptions. supply and demand and the leverage of a further 12% of our oil needs coming from in house is certainly simplistic, that is not a negative reason I've highlighted the section that you are wrong on. I find it interesting that you have a religeous preoccupation against drilling when you seem rather against dogma replacing thought in other areas. It isn't religious. All I'm looking for is for someone to say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels. I guess you could call self-reliance a "religion". Well, guilty as charged.
Post #66,463 by boxley 12/3/02 6:21:39 PM Reply	oh is that all as large as prudoe bay is current thinking by geologists that have been there. as for the second part All I'm looking for is for someone to say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels. I say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels. Can we drill now? thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,467 by Brandioch 12/3/02 6:36:49 PM Reply	Sure. After all, if you say we will, then we will.
Post #66,468 by ben_tilly 12/3/02 6:37:35 PM Reply	supply and demand again Increasing the supply pushes the price down which puts less pressure on people to conserve, and therefore increases consumption. Going the other way, decreasing supply leads to price-hikes, second thoughts about SUVs, and corresponding decreases in consumption. So it really isn't as simple as a barrel pumped is a barrel not imported. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #66,540 by Ashton 12/4/02 12:10:10 AM Reply	Thank you.
Post #66,542 by boxley 12/4/02 12:15:43 AM Reply	ok what was the price of gas in 1973 when everyone went to rice rockets and what is the price now How many high paying manufacturing union jobs have we lost in the interval while we went to a "more fries" economy yet the public is still buying SUV's. Doesnt add up. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,583 by ben_tilly 12/4/02 7:58:37 AM Reply	It does add up Haven't had time to read it yet, but [link\|http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm\|http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm] has a discussion of historical gas prices. You will note that, for instance, the graph at [link\|http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/crudeoilprice4797c.gif\|http://www.wtrg.com/...oilprice4797c.gif] shows that, adjusted for inflation, gas prices through the 90's were massively lower than they were in the 1980's. And the 90's are known for much more gas-guzzling cars than the 80's were. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #66,598 by boxley 12/4/02 9:38:22 AM Reply	wages for the common man are massivley lower also wealth transfer from bottom to top, union jobs swapped for walmart jobs etc. think it is about even from personal experience. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
Post #66,754 by ben_tilly 12/4/02 7:08:19 PM Reply	Family income remained roughly constant But we did go from 1 family to 2, so average income also declined. However I would like to also note that a disproportionate portion of the gas consumption, etc comes from people who are relatively well off. Wealth transfer is potential consumption redistribution, not reduction. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #66,546 by Ashton 12/4/02 12:31:50 AM Reply	"Responsibility"___Heh__You social Darwinists are such fun! Actually the word responsible means merely, capable of reacting to a stimulus. This can be seen as close to the lowest form of ~animation consonant with, nope, Doc - he ain't quite dead yet... Now when you Capitalize that, why it comes out just like Moral - the final justification for the most dastardly of deeds (already in the works). Even more hilarous are Darwinists who have discovered Boole, and are emotionally attracted to there being A Right and A Wrong. Ahh.. the sheer comfort in this longing for Order. [er My-Form of that, of course] Just Everything becomes, IF NOT THIS THEN THAT. No wonder bellicosity is so inextricably entwined with that visible-consumption form of theology: Flag-waving Religiosity + Anthems for marching. (Lemmings* need not be evoked by the 'marching to the sea part' - that one's a Red Herring. Too.) * for lack of a better term Ashton switching channnels; seen that commercial before ...the day Paradise put up a parking lot..

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