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New The snarky European syndrome
[link|http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/2002-06-02-PolicyReview.asp?p=11&from=pubdate|Robert Kagan's take]

Excerpts:

A better explanation of Europe's greater tolerance for threats is, once again, Europe's relative weakness. Tolerance is also very much a realistic response in that Europe, precisely because it is weak, actually faces fewer threats than the far more powerful United States.

The psychology of weakness is easy enough to understand. A man armed only with a knife may decide that a bear prowling the forest is a tolerable danger, inasmuch as the alternative - hunting the bear armed only with a knife - is actually riskier than lying low and hoping the bear never attacks. The same man armed with a rifle, however, will likely make a different calculation of what constitutes a tolerable risk. Why should he risk being mauled to death if he doesn't need to?

...The current situation abounds in ironies. Europe's rejection of power politics, its devaluing of military force as a tool of international relations, have depended on the presence of American military forces on European soil. Europe's new Kantian order could flourish only under the umbrella of American power exercised according to the rules of the old Hobbesian order. American power made it possible for Europeans to believe that power was no longer important. And now, in the final irony, the fact that United States military power has solved the European problem, especially the "German problem," allows Europeans today to believe that American military power, and the "strategic culture" that has created and sustained it, are outmoded and dangerous.

Most Europeans do not see the great paradox: that their passage into post-history has depended on the United States not making the same passage. Because Europe has neither the will nor the ability to guard its own paradise and keep it from being overrun, spiritually as well as physically, by a world that has yet to accept the rule of "moral consciousness," it has become dependent on America's willingness to use its military might to deter or defeat those around the world who still believe in power politics.


[link|http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/taedec02a.htm|Karl Zinsmeister] has a different emphasis:

Excerpts:

Americans must be clear-eyed about this. When we had differences with European governments in the past, it was usually some exceptional matter which could be negotiated away. Given today's foaming desire of European unionists to form a superstate to compete with the U.S., splits will be less accidental in the future, and harder to rub away. "It would be a misreading of Europe's political elites to see anti-American complaints as isolated gripes which can be overcome, one by one, through patient dialogue," warned Michael Gove, a perceptive editorialist for London's Times, when I visited his office. "Europe is not begging to differ in particulars, but beginning to diverge in fundamentals."

The philosophical differences between Europe and the U.S. are reflected and magnified in three critical structural breaks: 1) Europe has surrendered much of its economic dynamism. 2) Europe has lost its stomach for military action, substituting an exaggerated confidence in diplomacy. And, 3) Europe is on a path to population collapse...

To American eyes, the most striking aspect of the European Union is its undemocratic nature. The E.U. apparatus is exceedingly closed and secretive. Relatively few of the confederation's important decisions are currently made by democratically accountable officials. On front after front, bureaucratic mandarins are deciding how everyday Europeans will live (see our feature article on page 36).

Many Europeans, in a way Americans find impossible to understand, are willing to let their elites lead them by the nose. There is a kind of peasant mentality under which their "betters" are allowed to make the important national judgments for them. "Europe's leaders see themselves as wise parents, and their citizens as children," explains journalist and Briton Clive Crook. "In France, Germany, and the institutions of the European Union, elites take major political decisions and impose them on the voters without consulting them," summarizes John O'Sullivan. "Political elites feel that the people have no right to obstruct the realization of the European dream."

I say:

Europe is like the rebellious moody kid that's working dead end jobs, and playing in a grunge band that's going nowhere, and quotes Das Kapital for no particular reason, and is an ostentatious vegetarian, and hates his parents, and still lives with his hated parents even though he's pushing thirty. And his room is filthy. If Europe were my kid I'd kick him out.

But Europe isn't our kid. Europe is our senile uncle. England is America's mother, and she's not what she used to be. But Uncle Europe is simply a mess. All this soft socialism is just an unconscious yearning for life in an institution.
NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea.
"What must it feel like to lose an election to a retarded monkey?" - Andrew Sullivan
"The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Expand Edited by marlowe Dec. 4, 2002, 10:39:23 AM EST
New Editing, please.
Because Europe has neither the will nor the ability to guard its own paradise and keep it from being overrun, spiritually as well as physically, by a world that has yet to accept the rule of "moral consciousness," it has become dependent on America's willingness to use its military might to deter or defeat those around the world who still believe in power politics.
But the US is talking about a pre-emptive invasion.

Isn't that the definition of "power politics"?
New No, that's the definition of being responsible.
By your way of - for lack of a better term - thinking, anybody who applies antibiotics ruthlessly and with malice aforethought to poor defenseless plague bacteria is engaging in power politics.

The trouble with your sort is you understand neither power nor politics. Nor responsibility, for that matter. I think it's because all these are corollaries of the notion of cause and effect, which also seems beyond the grasp of these souls.

I for one do not believe in letting nature run its course in all circumstances.
NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea.
"What must it feel like to lose an election to a retarded monkey?" - Andrew Sullivan
"The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
New sorry that has been taken
you cant let nature run wild
Governor Walter (wally) Hickel of Alaska
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New o/~ We are the world, We are the children o/~
By your way of - for lack of a better term - thinking, anybody who applies antibiotics ruthlessly and with malice aforethought to poor defenseless plague bacteria is engaging in power politics.
Not if the bacteria are in your body.

Now, if you force your "medicine" upon someone else, that is power politics.

I am reminded of an episode of The X Files where a certain insane carpenter(?) was administering lobotomies to unwilling beneficiaries.

Now, if you want to do it TO YOURSELF, I see no problem with that.

The problem you have is that you don't seem to understand that it is "reasonable" and even "right" for other people to own bits of this Earth and to do whatever they want on those bits of Earth.
New So you changed your mind on oil drilling eh?
congrats, private property is provate property and so the piece of ANWAR that is soley native owned can be drilled and help domestic oil production. Glad you changed your mind.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New *sigh*
Yep, private property is private property.

And you can do anything you want on your private property.

As long as you don't cause any damage to anyone else's private property.

Or to areas that you don't own.

congrats, private property is provate property and so the piece of ANWAR that is soley native owned can be drilled and help domestic oil production.
Sure. As long as the impact is restricted to that property.

Now, our record of oil and environment isn't that great.

Also, so what if we produce more oil, domestically. Does that mean we're going to reduce our foreign consumption? I don't think so.
New This Is All Horseshit
Out animal imperative is to control the energy resources - like a bunch of animals around a carcass - push enough competitors away and you get to eat. Otherwise you starve. Unless you are a buzzard. A strong buzzard. The weak buzzards get eaten by the strong buzzards. But then, in the end, the buzzard becomes worm food. Or fly food. Lots and lots of flies.

We want the oil. Period.
-drl
New True, for animals. With animal intelligence.
But we are an exception as we have a mind that is capable of advanced thought and extrapolation.

We want the oil. Period.
Exactly.

Now, my position is that this is NOT the best course of action, long term.

Our FIRST step should be to REDUCE our usage. To make the existing supply last longer.

Our SECOND step should be to start developing alternative sources.
New what yer math is worse than mine!!!!
Also, so what if we produce more oil, domestically. Does that mean we're going to reduce our foreign consumption? I don't think so.

if current domestic production is 47% of domestic and ANWR is 25% of current domestic production then imported oil which is 53% of needs will be reduced by 25% of 47% roughly what we buy from the saudis.12% more or less a few barrels.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New Try again.
That was a prediction. I predicted that we wouldn't reduce our foreign consumption.

And that has been one of the key issues regarding this.

No one can say that we're going to cut X barrels from our imports IF we drill here.
New supply and demand
every barrel of oil pumped here is one less to buy from foreign producers
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New Yes, in an extremely simplistic view.
Or it is one barrel to sell.
New doesnt really matter does it?
supply and demand and the leverage of a further 12% of our oil needs coming from in house is certainly simplistic, that is not a negative reason. I find it interesting that you have a religeous preoccupation against drilling when you seem rather against dogma replacing thought in other areas.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New Again, you have incorrect assumptions.
supply and demand and the leverage of a further 12% of our oil needs coming from in house is certainly simplistic, that is not a negative reason
I've highlighted the section that you are wrong on.

I find it interesting that you have a religeous preoccupation against drilling when you seem rather against dogma replacing thought in other areas.
It isn't religious. All I'm looking for is for someone to say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels.

I guess you could call self-reliance a "religion".

Well, guilty as charged.
New oh is that all
as large as prudoe bay is current thinking by geologists that have been there. as for the second part
All I'm looking for is for someone to say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels.

I say that if we pump X barrels here, we will cut our imports by X barrels.
Can we drill now?
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New Sure.
After all, if you say we will, then we will.

New supply and demand again
Increasing the supply pushes the price down which puts less pressure on people to conserve, and therefore increases consumption.

Going the other way, decreasing supply leads to price-hikes, second thoughts about SUVs, and corresponding decreases in consumption.

So it really isn't as simple as a barrel pumped is a barrel not imported.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Thank you.
New ok what was the price of gas in 1973
when everyone went to rice rockets and what is the price now How many high paying manufacturing union jobs have we lost in the interval while we went to a "more fries" economy yet the public is still buying SUV's. Doesnt add up.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New It does add up
Haven't had time to read it yet, but [link|http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm|http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm] has a discussion of historical gas prices. You will note that, for instance, the graph at [link|http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/crudeoilprice4797c.gif|http://www.wtrg.com/...oilprice4797c.gif] shows that, adjusted for inflation, gas prices through the 90's were massively lower than they were in the 1980's. And the 90's are known for much more gas-guzzling cars than the 80's were.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New wages for the common man are massivley lower also
wealth transfer from bottom to top, union jobs swapped for walmart jobs etc.
think it is about even from personal experience.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]


Opera was the television of the nineteenth century:loud, vulgar and garish with plots that could only be called infantile. "Pendergast"
New Family income remained roughly constant
But we did go from 1 family to 2, so average income also declined.

However I would like to also note that a disproportionate portion of the gas consumption, etc comes from people who are relatively well off. Wealth transfer is potential consumption redistribution, not reduction.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New "Responsibility"___Heh__You social Darwinists are such fun!
Actually the word responsible means merely, capable of reacting to a stimulus. This can be seen as close to the lowest form of ~animation consonant with, nope, Doc - he ain't quite dead yet... Now when you Capitalize that, why it comes out just like Moral - the final justification for the most dastardly of deeds (already in the works).

Even more hilarous are Darwinists who have discovered Boole, and are emotionally attracted to there being A Right and A Wrong. Ahh.. the sheer comfort in this longing for Order. [er My-Form of that, of course]

Just Everything becomes, IF NOT THIS THEN THAT. No wonder bellicosity is so inextricably entwined with that visible-consumption form of theology: Flag-waving Religiosity + Anthems for marching.

(Lemmings* need not be evoked by the 'marching to the sea part' - that one's a Red Herring. Too.)

* for lack of a better term


Ashton
switching channnels; seen that commercial before

...the day Paradise
put up a parking lot..
     The snarky European syndrome - (marlowe) - (23)
         Editing, please. - (Brandioch) - (22)
             No, that's the definition of being responsible. - (marlowe) - (21)
                 sorry that has been taken - (boxley)
                 o/~ We are the world, We are the children o/~ - (Brandioch) - (18)
                     So you changed your mind on oil drilling eh? - (boxley) - (17)
                         *sigh* - (Brandioch) - (16)
                             This Is All Horseshit - (deSitter) - (1)
                                 True, for animals. With animal intelligence. - (Brandioch)
                             what yer math is worse than mine!!!! - (boxley) - (13)
                                 Try again. - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                     supply and demand - (boxley) - (11)
                                         Yes, in an extremely simplistic view. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                             doesnt really matter does it? - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 Again, you have incorrect assumptions. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                     oh is that all - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Sure. - (Brandioch)
                                         supply and demand again - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                             Thank you. -NT - (Ashton)
                                             ok what was the price of gas in 1973 - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 It does add up - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                     wages for the common man are massivley lower also - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Family income remained roughly constant - (ben_tilly)
                 "Responsibility"___Heh__You social Darwinists are such fun! - (Ashton)

No matter what I accomplish in this life, nobody's going to sculpt my head in thermoplastic resin and make it spit water into the bedrooms of sick children.
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