Post #59,636
10/26/02 4:04:50 PM
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Too convenient.
I'm actually doubting it was an accident in the current political climate.
Things are escalating.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #59,639
10/26/02 4:52:26 PM
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Yes.. the unstated Question, nowadays not even silly.. :(
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Post #59,640
10/26/02 5:05:25 PM
10/26/02 5:07:29 PM
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I don't think so.
There was some pretty nasty weather in the region (snow/ice). My guess is that too much ice accumulated on the wings and the airplane stalled with no time to recover. I heard they were 2 miles out on approach for landing, if so, they'd have been probably too low to recover from a stall, which would have happened at higher airspeed if there was ice on the wings. And it would have come up on the pilots w/little to no warning. They'd be making a normal approach at normal approach speeds, then whammie, no lift and into the ground.
It is a very dark day for the Democratic Party. They definitely lost one of their best. If the politics play out and the Repos take charge of the Senate, Wellstone will flip over in his grave.
Edited by mmoffitt
Oct. 26, 2002, 05:07:29 PM EDT
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Post #59,647
10/26/02 6:30:23 PM
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Agreed that is far more likely.
Just happened to hear radio doc. re "St. George" a small town downwind of US nuke tests in '50s and later - in fact often 'selected' as the right wind direction: contaminating milk in LA with I-131 just wouldn't have been an option. These folks Knew what they were doing - but prevented any notification of the townfolk, re contamination of their produce, etc. (Finally in '96 (?) some but not nearly all of the cancer sufferers received some stipend)
Patriotism at its extreme - considers any old person expendable. So all I mean is that, no it isn't unthinkable that a deicer reservoir was filled with something useless [for just one ex.] - but the accustion cannot be made except by a loony, unless FAA turns up and releases.?. something. Since you know aircraft, you can do your own gedanken experiment..
Clearly this is apt to have been an accident / oversight re landing weather conditions / subtle failure of man or machine. We live (and lie, often) in times where the word 'apt' is apt IMhO.
Yes, he stood for almost everything this Admin doesn't - it emerges.
Ashton
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Post #59,660
10/26/02 7:41:05 PM
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Re: I don't think so.
Agreed - almost certainly icing. It only takes thousandths of an inch to completely change the flight dynamics. Even if the plane is capable of flying level, a sharp turn could land you in a world of shit.
-drl
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Post #60,113
10/29/02 7:50:39 PM
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Wasn't Carnahan also in a King Air about this time 2yrs ago?
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Post #60,115
10/29/02 8:21:42 PM
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Re: Wasn't Carnahan also in a King Air
No, Cessna 335.
I do remember the night - pea soup at ground level. Not cold enough for ice to be an issue.
The artificial horizon failed - with no ground reference and no stars, they were flying blind and without orientation information other than that provided by the inner ear. The thinking is, the pilot (his son) maneuvered the plane into a stall attitude and could not recover from the resulting spin.
I would have rigged some kind of plumb bob from the cockpit ceiling to act as a direction indicator.
-drl
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Post #60,207
10/30/02 11:25:18 AM
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Did both AI's fail?
I should look up the NTSB report on this. Seems like there was an article about the accident in Plane & Pilot or some other flying mag. I've read about several IMC accidents and I start wondering if my plans to pursue an instrument rating next year are well founded. It must be hard to make a "no-go" decision if you've been instrument rated for a while and are used to flying in true IMC conditions. Right now, the go/no-go choice for me is easy (if it ain't VFR minimums, I ain't goin'), but I suppose it's gotta be harder to decide against going w/some IMC flying time under your belt.
Thanks fo the info,
Mikem
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Post #60,210
10/30/02 11:36:15 AM
10/30/02 11:40:16 AM
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Re: Did both AI's fail?
That's the thinking - he radioed in problems with his 8-ball, stated he would try to use the co-pilot's, then asked for a vector to VFR conditions - shortly afterward radar contact was lost.
If I were you, I'd get in the habit of tacking up a St. Christopher medal on a fine chain :)
As a philosophical issue, I can't see the point in flying IFR for recreation!
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Oct. 30, 2002, 11:40:16 AM EST
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Post #59,673
10/26/02 8:45:09 PM
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If you want to get paranoid
If you want to get paranoid consider this.
Mel Carnahan, the dead guy that Ashcroft lost to, died in a similar plane crash.
Jay
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Post #59,704
10/27/02 12:05:06 AM
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Re: If you want to get paranoid
Yeah, its enough to make you believe Witchcroft is the Beast.
-drl
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Post #59,707
10/27/02 12:17:52 AM
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Consider the politics
The most liberal Democrat in an evenly divided Senate is killed in a plane crash. In a modulo on the Carnehan incident two years ago, both the Senator's wife & daughter are killed, leaving a two-generation gap in Wellstone's political legacy, not to mention his current support staff with three key aides killed as well. \r\n\r\n The state is typically liberal. Replacement rules allow the party to specify a new candidate, but the governor has the power to appoint a replacement senator for the term of Wellstone's term (through December, 2002). The governor, in this case, is neither a Republican or a Democrat, but an independent, who has previously announced he is not up for reelection -- and thus much critical leverage over his decision on the appointment is foregone. Which is to say that the fulcrum of power lies elsewhere within the state. Look for a serious windfall to Minnesota out of this situation. \r\n\r\n The decision of Governor Ventura will swing the balance of power in the US Senate, and hence Congress (House & Senate are split Repo & Demo, respectively), in the period of time leading up to a likely invasion of Iraq, hence: war votes, and any additional domestic "Homeland Security" legislation. \r\n\r\n I'd decline to buy a book based on this premise, too unlikely. The reality frightens me. --\r\nKarsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #59,717
10/27/02 12:37:40 AM
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It looks like the politically fair thing will happen
Rumors have it that ex VP Mondale will run, he is well respected in Minnesota and the repo's would sit still for it otherwise lose the election anyway. Now could Ventura appoint himself and resign the governorship in favor of the female vice gov as he has quipped about doing? Wouldnt put it past him thinking about it.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #59,724
10/27/02 1:41:40 AM
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Saddest Thing
Mondale, the all time weasel of the century, may soon be back.
-drl
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Post #59,738
10/27/02 9:33:30 AM
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yabbut a very liberal weasel so status quo is achieved
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #59,785
10/27/02 6:38:53 PM
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Ah.. so this guy represented what you deem
Librul Weasel - (assuming here that you ever managed to read what any of his positions were. Chancy, that?) Besides, after your Alaska VS Injuns screeds, this be a nonsequitur.
OK now we know about you - but what does 'Liberal' mean actually, any more? And where does Moderate fit-in? (goshes.. when was the last time anyone used *that* word anywhere)
Ashton
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Post #59,788
10/27/02 7:08:14 PM
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eh, doc called him a weasel I just further defined it and
deemed it acceptable. Yes I have read of some of his accomplishments the largest was D2 which repealed the magna carta and reapplied King John's ban on commoners entering the Kings Forest. Fuck you very much. Sold the Panama canal to the Chinese, wants to take away my guns, empty my pockets so his friends and cronies running the government can buy new vacation houses(repo's contract that all out, same cash different scam) and all in all want to decrease freedom in favor of the federal government just like shrub. Weasel and of the liberal wing of the one weasel party.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #59,790
10/27/02 7:23:09 PM
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Oh is that all..
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Post #59,808
10/27/02 10:42:39 PM
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Re: Oh is that all..
Mondale, and Dukakis, and (too many to name) are a large part of the decline of the Democrats. Mondale in particular has a self-serving unction that turns the stomach. He tried to make political captial out of the death of the Apollo 1 astronauts while on the investigative committee following. The traditional, strong, pro-labor Democrats of the Kennedy generation were sucker-punched by Mondale, Proxmire, McGovern, and a million other hangers-on who sucked the life out of the Party. Yes, he's a weasel - he was also dead wrong about the Russians in 1984.
-drl
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Post #59,830
10/28/02 7:15:34 AM
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Mondale ain't Wellstone.
We were talking about Wellstone,so I don't buy Box's encapsulation either. I don't pretend to have followed his career minutely, but the few speeches I have read periodically make him: not a Mondale kinda guy IMO. Unfortunate that Mondale is the only replacement anyone in Minn. can imagine. Maybe better that an Ashcroft rerun occur, meaning: let dead guy win again! Let the Gov. pick successor from entire state. (Maybe though, the Repub would shoo in with chants of Unity, God and The Flag.)
The fact that imagination Is this impoverished follows from the general One-Party Republicrat fossils everywhere. That these 'Democrats' have had no guts to perform the duties of the Loyal Opposition\ufffd since 9/11, went ovinely along with the original Welfare destruction bill years ago (as did Clinton, to score points {ugly} via out-Repoing the Repubs) - merely underscores that only the Right is represented anywhere - until another party forms from the wreckage. Any mere moderate rates 'librul' in this surreal scene.
'Two Parties' my ass.
Ashton
Ignorance is Truth
Freedom is Slavery
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Post #59,773
10/27/02 2:26:13 PM
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You're not alone:
[link|http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000039.htm|http://www.voxnyc.co...ives/00000039.htm]
Christian R. Conrad
Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #59,778
10/27/02 5:23:39 PM
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wanna bet he can explain why missile defense cant work :-)
while allowing a small plane to be shot out of the sky with no trace of impact points, explosives or wreckage of such a missile. Fun reading though.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #59,781
10/27/02 5:59:42 PM
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Add'l links -- prior "assassination" incident, "hunted man"
There was a [link|http://www.counterpunch.org/pipermail/counterpunch-list/2000-December/004162.html|fairly widely reported incident] which some claimed was a possible assassination attempt, in 2000, on a visit by Wellstone to Columbia in November, 2000. \r\n\r\n \r\nPolice Thwart Colombia Attack Plan\r\n
By Andrew Selsky\r\n
Associated Press Writer\r\n
Friday, Dec. 1, 2000; 11:13 a.m. EST \r\n\r\nHours before Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., and U.S. Ambassador Anne Patterson\r\nflew into the town of Barrancabermeja on Thursday, police discovered two\r\nshrapnel-wrapped land mines alongside the road leading from the airport to\r\nthe town and arrested a suspected rebel, said police Col. Jose Miguel\r\nVillar. \r\n\r\nThe land mines each carried a 6.6-pound explosive charge, were attached to\r\ncables and a detonator and were ready to be set off, Villar said in a phone\r\ninterview from Barrancabermeja, 155 miles north of Bogota, the capital. \r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n It elicited a [link|http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2000/12/irp-001201-col.htm|State Department denial of an assassination attempt]. \r\n\r\n There was also an article in the Nation, by John Nichols, from the May 27, 2002 issue, [link|http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20020527&s=nichols|Paul Wellstone, Fighter]: \r\n\r\n \r\nPaul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them." \r\n\r\n....Congressional Quarterly says no senator had a more consistent record of voting against Bush Administration proposals during the new President's first year. Wellstone racks up 100 percent ratings from the AFL-CIO, Americans for Democratic Action and the League of Conservation Voters. He is the veteran grassroots organizer hailed by consumer activists for waging a three-year battle to temper the draconian "bankruptcy reform" bill pushed by the credit card industry. He is the former college professor who has been the chief Senate voice of those who maintain that education-reform initiatives must involve better measures of success than standardized tests. He is the crusader for disability rights and healthcare reform who--since he was diagnosed in February as having a mild form of multiple sclerosis--is in demand not merely as an advocate but as a very human example of what the struggles are about. \r\n --\r\nKarsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #59,819
10/28/02 3:22:31 AM
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Democrat professor w/ MS - model for West Wing's Bartlett???
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Post #59,832
10/28/02 7:26:30 AM
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Heh.. maybe
(?) Dunno where A. Sorkin casts his net, but his first episode of the new season had several entirely *timely* what-ifs.. just as last season - he gave the "9/11 speech" (for a different atrocity, natch) which a Dubya never could have imagined. (Maybe you saw that?) And the difference surely grates, when you think of the remaining 280 millions to choose from. If there were a choice (or even a real debate) possible, that is.
Seems a case of not so much Life imitates Art as: the only imaginitive possibilities for this moribund 'Republic' lie well outside of the 'real' White House.. until enough folk gather the guts to impeach.
[Hah]
Ashton
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Post #59,973
10/28/02 10:08:48 PM
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Re: Democrat professor.
My son-in-law went to Carleton College and had Wellstone as professor years ago. Wellstone got his education at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill which is where my daughter (married to said son-in-law) got her degree. Just a coincidence, of course.
Alex
"I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain. -- Pierre de Fermat (1601-1665)
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