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New warning explicit anti pc language follows and Meerkat
rainbow soapbox welcome and applicable this time
[link|http://torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=997913416713&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154|earl]
should elementary school students receive pro homosexual literature, me I think there should be no sexual education in grades 1-6. Give them a time to be kids. My kid comes home and says Johnny has two dads and asks me why I say Johnny's dad is a faggot and that is his business. (yes I know crude and prejuidicial) or why does johnny have two moms, she likes pussy same as dad.( yes I know I will get to that) now when they see me interact with Jonny's mom or dad in a rational friendly manner my children will know that although different we recognise the difference and deal with people on a one on one basis. If my kid asks why dont you like johnnys dad or mom I may say that his is an ashole making sure it is his attitude not his orientation that pisses me off. Should I put this in the hands of school teachers to teach my kids sexual norms? hell no! the view of sexual norms is to be taught by me and mine not you and yours! Evolution is survival and I refuse to let anyone else determine my decendants survival skills and if they are wrong darwin or someone will sort it out
off my soapbox next,
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
Expand Edited by boxley Aug. 17, 2001, 10:28:27 AM EDT
New Please fix the URL - it makes the screen much too wide.
Hi Bill,

Please add a different Name to the href string so that the post isn't so wide.

[a href="url"]Name[/a] - like that, but using angle brackets instead of square ones.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Aug. 16, 2001, 10:31:58 PM EDT
New Ummm... Bill, I thought you lived in Florida...

I mean, I know you quote Alaska news and all...but, anyway, we're talking about CANADA here (Onterio).


Good Grief - there's people in other countries teaching their kids that you'll go directly to heaven if you die trying to 'da infidel'. Why should I worry if some teacher in another country wants to talk about homosexuality?

New Notice 'narrow / wide' radio button?
I think if you narrow things, maybe by several clicks of the button - the insanely long URL will wrap and

ELIMINATE THE %^#^*%#%^*# SCROLLING LEFT AND RIGHT.

Again.

As with some previous.



A. Crank who doesn't like scrolling l/r itsagainstmyreligion.
New Arguments againts (formatting aside)
I have no problem with what people do with themselves in their own lives. If you enjoy pig mutilation, more power to you (though you may run afoul or apig of PETA.)

Homosexuality is a different lifestyle. Homosexuals number (depending on your figures) from 2-10% of the population.

Fine.

Whatever.

Whether you consider it an alternate lifestyle, a genetic preference, or whatever, it is a trueism that homosexuals will be burdened with a harder life.

One, they are "diifferent"

Two, most religious denominations are against it.

Three, most "normal" heterosexuals are disgusted by it. (sex with a man is beyond my comprehension.)

Socially, economically, spiritually, if one wishes to teach, I would think you'd try to turn him into more productive, joyous, socially acceptive person. You might mention homosexuality, but to teach it as acceptable is wrong.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
New I think I get it. At least I feel nauseous a bit. So then..
You appear to have cancelled out your magnanimous live and let live disclaimer.. apologia? with the last few sentences:

If teaching that 'it' is acceptable, is wrong, that appears to mean that either you say nothing (perhaps the little tyke will Never find out that such a thing as 'it' exists?) or - you teach that, 'it' is unacceptable. Unacceptable to be that way? I guess that is what is meant.

Presumably an easy stretch, since it's wrong. And since the idea is abhorrent to *you* why - well, naturally it ought to be abhorrent to any right-thinking person, too. Right?

Let's see: right / wrong. Umm sounds like a moral judgment. Of someone not *you* (because you already registered your particular preference). It's about someone *else* (who may or may not much care what your opinion accidentally happens to be - not that their opinion matters: they're wrong. Easy to forget). Right?

Hmm - maybe it's a religious persuasion. Often 'moral' is defined as ~ "what my selected religion says it is" ergo: what mine says it is, is *right*. What yours says it is, is *wrong*. Right?

Of course too - taking you at your word - you can have no idea how a er homosexual might be 'wired' - thus no idea what it might feel like to be a certain way which.. in the opinion of others not-that-way is

A fucking WRONG WAY TO 'BE' ... at all.

Well.. the opposite of being seems to be ~ being dead == not 'being'.

Welcome to Jerusalem 2001.

No need to expose our little tyke to ideas that er some people are 'different' and that makes them immoral and that means: they are wrong to be that way.

Let's show him how you take care of people who ought Not to be - the way they happen to be:

Get them to Not be, anymore. It's logical . It follows from the reasoning given. So.. OK:

I know! Let's teach the little *tyke how to strap on some Semtex and make sure daddy's Righteousness is spread far and wide (well, whatever the radius for 50% MLD is for umm 40# of Semtex of good grade and a decent tetryl booster).

* if by some accident of nature - the little tyke is also an 'it' - why, he'll hardly be missed by daddy anyway.. right? Simply - he wasn't supposed to be - anyway.

Difficulty solved by logic: No more problem with the different ones. No more problem with the immoral ones. No more problem with the homosexual ones.

(But let's not blame it on bigotry and the acting out of atavistic fear of the different thus hatred of that which induces fear.. (and is thus 'immoral' (thus 'wrong')) - gosh logic is so so.. consistent!)

Let's blame it on those French Zombies. It can't be anything *I'm* doing.
New Peta would compreHENsively slate you for that...
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Perfectly fucking stupid arguments.
Harris mumbles in his beard:
I have no problem with what people do with themselves in their own lives. If you enjoy pig mutilation, more power to you
A noble sentiment... Too bad it's rather blatantly contradicted by the rest of your post.


Whether you consider [homosexuality] an alternate lifestyle, a genetic preference, or whatever, it is a trueism that homosexuals will be burdened with a harder life.
Yes... And?


One, they are "diifferent"
Two, most religious denominations are against it.
Yup.

Perfectly idiotic reasons for perfectly idiotic people to make fags' lives harder, of course... But yes, they certainly do exist.

And that's somehow a reason to burden the queers with even MORE of "a harder life" than they would be already, with all the idiots that are out there???

Which is of course EXACTLY what you would be doing; the more so, the *less* you tell their presumtive tormentors that no, they aren't actually the Scum Of The Earth and deserve to die, *die*, DIE!!!.


Three, most "normal" heterosexuals are disgusted by it.
A) How do you "know" that? Where are your statistics from; who conducted the surveys; what was the sampling technique, the population they selected from, and the exact question they asked? (i.e, this is pure proctonumerology from you, right?)

B) Even if they are, so what? I may "be disgusted" by your diet, or your clothing and grooming habits (any piercings?), or, for that matter, by your beard... Is that any reason for my stupid prejudices to be allowed to make your life harder than it really has to be?

C) Oh, judging from *some* sectors of the all-pervasive media, *some* kinds of homosexuality seem to be quite popular. Hey, what *is* it with all these nude mud wrestling games that seem to be the highest form of entertainment a red-blooded American male aspires to see...? (That is, lesbianism -- newsflash, that's homosexuality too -- sure seems to sell in pornography. To otherwise self-proclaimed heterosexual men. So maybe this shit isn't as digitally either-or as you seem to think.)


(sex with a man is beyond my comprehension.)
Seems I have to point out, like I so often did to my old man when he thought his inability to understand something was somehow an argument against it, that this isn't necessarily an indictment of sex with a man (my girlfriend loves it, BTW -- you have an issue with that? :-) so much as of your own comprehension... (Furthermore, I submit that *your* opinion on the subject of sex carries rather less weight than that of virtually anybody else here: Most of us have had the opportunity to form an *informed* opinion.)


Socially, economically, spiritually, if one wishes to teach, I would think you'd try to turn him into more productive, joyous, socially acceptive person. You might mention homosexuality, but to teach it as acceptable is wrong.
This statement is a little unclear -- who is the "he" that is supposed to become "more productive, joyous, socially acceptive [sic]"? The teacher, or the pupil? Oh, never mind -- the same question applies in both cases: How the fuck, exactly, is teaching that "what people do with themselves in their own lives" (and you claim to have "no problem with"), how is teaching that this is NOT acceptable -- going to make someone a more "acceptive" person??? (Or show that the one doing the teaching is one.)

Yours seems to be a recipe only for perpetuating bigotry, washing your hands of it with (rather transparently hypocritical) pablums about how you "have no problem with" its victims.

Sheesh...!
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Is the assumption here that
the literature/education makes it more likely that the kids will turn out gay?

Any evidence that that is the case?

The most toxic person I've had to deal with in the last 5 years (guy made a very serious effort to destroy my wife's costume business, as far as I can tell out of sheer spite. Failed only because he's screwed so many people (and I don't mean sexualy) lately that his suggestions not to deal with Kim backfired.) is probably that way because he's a raging homophobe. And openly gay. Self esteem is overhyped, but self loathing is quite toxic, and not just to the individual involved.

White guys in suits know best
- Pat McCurdy
New nope it is the concern that my kids dont
hafta listen to any more worrisome shit than they hafta before it slaps em in the face anyway. Kids have lotsa problems with learning how to act, please other, be polite. Kids naturally want to be like for who they but they really dont know who they are yet. All I am saying that keep sex out of the mix until puberty when it matters.
Hey dad should I be a dick licker when I grow up?
Son I rather you worried about learning how to read and right and learn to swim before you figure out yer future sexual identity.
thats all,
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Why, exactly?
Should I put this in the hands of school teachers to teach my kids sexual norms? hell no! the view of sexual norms is to be taught by me and mine not you and yours!
So, should we leave other norms of conduct entirely up to parents, too: "Naah, honey, it's OK to steal from *them*; they're not like *us*."?

If so, why? And if not, then why should we when it comes to sexual norms, specifically?

Or should civi-c education aim to instil in future voters some sense of civi-lity? I, for one, think the world -- and the kids, homo- and hetero-sexual both -- would be better off if *all* children were told that it doesn't much matter for a person's worth as a human being what organ they prefer to stick, or have stuck, in what orifice.

A damn sight better than if you and every bloody Deliverance-style fuckwad were able to, *unopposedly*, raise their kids into new little "Squeal like pig!" morons.

Now, of course, you're asking: How *dare* I?!? Well -- I'm not saying you *are* a bloody Deliverance-style fuckwad... but you *are* _equal_, in the eyes of the law and political rhetoric.

So if his kids can stand being told stuff that differs from Daddy's view -- like, that the Earth revolves around the Sun, not the other way around; that the Civil War is over, and the South lost; stuff like that -- then so can yours.

According to what you claim above, it doesn't even differ from what you are telling them... But even if it did, then so what: It's not as if your views will have *less* air time with the kids than a few hours, total, of grade school Sex Ed, is it?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New twang, twang, twang,twang,twang,twang,twang
ayup

So, should we leave other norms of conduct entirely up to parents, too: "Naah, honey, it's OK to steal from *them*; they're not like *us*."?

ayup I have that right.
thanx,
bill
what is the suomi term for Deliverance style Fuckwad, Georgian?
New No you haven't: unless you're blowing smoke re
surveillance cameras - and the rather fundamental Point that:

You have the power - not the Right.

Rights inhere to the individual; they are not 'granted' by govmint. (and I add: by parent, either - after sentience, except via coercion and guile)

Now technically, as parent, 'protector' of your wards - who are in fact in process of becoming citizens with the above Rights inherent - yes, you possess the *power* to inflict all manner of your prejudices (noticed and unnoticed) or even to, "try to make them little carbon copies of me-me-me" (the more common form of dissing the Rights of nascent citizens?)

But in imposing your arbitrary collection of detritus about 'the way Things are S'pozed to Be', and opposing the delivery of a more general view (from school) of ~ 'How things often Are' - how are you much different from the folk who teach their kids bad synonyms for Jews?

{Sheesh} Bill - afraid the schoolmarm's arguments are better than yours? (I recall my Rt-wing McCarthy-lovin Wacko gmother worryin pretty little head about.. what awful things those teachers might be tellin er *Me*)

Of Course she was Right! as well as Right-Wing AND Righteous: at least insofar as her having the ongoing satisfaction of believing.. I might turn out Just Like Her\ufffd (As if I needed a teacher to explain what sanctimonious Righteousness smells like!)

BTW: the process you're espousin - is exactly how we got, get, will get - the 8 year-old suicide bombers 'over there': Believe Daddy in All Things. That what you want too? Gonna really teach the little tykes that, fags are Unacceptable (even if later, one happens to find out that s/he has er __)?



A.

PS re what is the suomi term for Deliverance style Fuckwad, Georgian? Hypocrite? maybe
New nope gotta disagree
In Middle school when the tads are at least 12 teachem proper bj techniques for all I care. Prior to that let the little fsckers be kids. An 11 yea old doesnt really need sex education from the government, might need it from her parents (bad touching, those are yer private parts) and teachers (wash yer ass AFTER you wash your face) dont need to be imprinted with the NEA's version of social tolerance or intolerance for my point of view as the parent. I get first crack and then the gummin t can try to brainwash them all they want after the 6th grade.
I have a hard enough time now when the oldster's art teacher tells him Leonardo de Caprio's painting of whistlers mother was of a prostitute. Took a while to figger out that it was Da Vinci and the painting probably was the Mona Lisa. last year teachers were telling the kids that guns were invented for hunting and since we buy food in the store we dont need guns anymore. I had to explain to the kids that guns were invented to kill people and they are so good at it you can also use them for hunting. Teachers response was they were trying to teach gun avoidance. Yea, right the nasty little pc pricks.
wait until they are 12 before trying to get them to fit the NEA mold.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New You do have a point.
Up to some age, kids are malleable. According to my father, Stalin had said that if you indoctrinate the kids for the first few years of school, he will have them for the rest of their lives. Kids used to turn in their parents for "counter-revolutionary thoughts". Yep, get your parents killed for "brownie points"
Alex

Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel.
-- Anne Frank
New Jesuits pegged it first:
Get 'em by 5 and you got 'em for life.

I do see your point re social engineering, but don't consider it an arguable point that, between the extremes of indoctrinating a litany of fav prejudices VS a certain amount of Polyanna unselectivity: "excessive tolerance", perhaps? (Just to Begin From\ufffd) - there's any argument.

As you say - plenty of time after age 12 or so, to explain that - yes some groups (which are Right) have labelled some other groups (which are Wrong) accordingly. And then noting that this is a 'moral' judgment which (for most but not Nearly all) is also a 'religious' judgment. (The brave ones might add: of course they can't All be Right / All-others Wrong / er simultaneously but.. don't ask so many &^$*#$ Questions, Kid..!)

Then they can decide.. if they want to go with mom, tying chickens on doorknobs.. or with dad who's a geek*, on his rounds of biting the heads off of live chickens for God and country.

* original def'n of geek per Kurt V. in Jailbirds, a hilarious romp on McCarthy, Watergate and judging folks' er 'character'. (Also on Big Bizness and bag ladies)

But then - you knew all that stuff.. :-P
And no one will be listening to you or me re how to raise-up kids or chickens. If ya draw asshole parents, ya just start out with a foot in the hole. But it ain't amputated -


A.
New No you don't. Not if you want to be human.
If you want to live among humans and interact with them, you better learn and adjust to society's norms. Which includes having those norms taught to you when you're a kid, and to your kids when you're an adult.

You wanna live outside the bounds of society's norms, then you get to live outside the bounds of society itself: Take your kids out into the woods and have 'em raised by wolves, for all I care.

But then of course you'd also relinquish any right to come to me and whine when they're hunted and killed like wolves or any other pest, right?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New whose norms?
The dems only pulled 25% of the votes over hear last time and want to teach that crap to my kids and the repos only got 24% want only to teach creation instead of evolution as well as make homosexuality a crime again. The rest appear not to give a shit. Nope societies norms can kick in after the age of 12. Until then they are my wolves I teachem my way.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
New Then keep 'em in a cage; don't inflict 'em on the public.
New the public think they are nice little boys
gotta keep the imprinting subliminal
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
     warning explicit anti pc language follows and Meerkat - (boxley) - (19)
         Please fix the URL - it makes the screen much too wide. - (Another Scott)
         Ummm... Bill, I thought you lived in Florida... - (Simon_Jester)
         Notice 'narrow / wide' radio button? - (Ashton)
         Arguments againts (formatting aside) - (wharris2) - (5)
             I think I get it. At least I feel nauseous a bit. So then.. - (Ashton)
             Peta would compreHENsively slate you for that... -NT - (pwhysall)
             Perfectly fucking stupid arguments. - (CRConrad)
             Is the assumption here that - (mhuber) - (1)
                 nope it is the concern that my kids dont - (boxley)
         Why, exactly? - (CRConrad) - (9)
             twang, twang, twang,twang,twang,twang,twang - (boxley) - (8)
                 No you haven't: unless you're blowing smoke re - (Ashton) - (3)
                     nope gotta disagree - (boxley) - (2)
                         You do have a point. - (a6l6e6x)
                         Jesuits pegged it first: - (Ashton)
                 No you don't. Not if you want to be human. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                     whose norms? - (boxley) - (2)
                         Then keep 'em in a cage; don't inflict 'em on the public. -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                             the public think they are nice little boys - (boxley)

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
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