Post #51,017
9/7/02 11:01:07 PM
9/7/02 11:02:25 PM
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beaurocracy killed the revolution and trotsky(typo)
[link|http://www.marxist.com/History/expulsion_of_leon_trotsky_1927.html|link] one of us posed the question as to wether if Stalin had failed and Trotsky succeeded would the end results be different. Not having looked at this stuff in a long time I thought a quick refresher was in order. After re-reading a bunch of stuff one link supplied above I have the following conclusions long held but re-inforced.
Religions, Political and technical revolutions have the same start middle and end. The furvor of the original players become the target of opportunists which plays into the hands of the bureaucratic leeches.
Christianity-Paul-Priest and pastoral class
American Revolution-Hamilton-demopubs and repocrats
Russian Communism-Stalin-Apparatchiks
Radical Islamism-Bin Laden-taliban
Chicom-Mao Zedung-triads
Information Age-gates/jobs-phb's
60's idealistic goals-Clinton types-todays family Services,HUD other failed social programs being looted by the folks working there.
This is an explosion followed by imposed order falling into rote chaoism
all movements degrade with a forseen half life. So either start your own or recognise the patterns.
thanx,
bill
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Edited by boxley
Sept. 7, 2002, 11:02:25 PM EDT
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Post #51,023
9/8/02 1:39:35 AM
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Concur.
A nice catalogue and close-enough for a minimalist history ;-)
Maybe this belongs in metaphysics though, because of the scale you are addressing (?)
I've tended to look at these (as you note) predictable outcomes as reflecting the state of maturity? overall emotional development? OK: consciousness of the group, society or.. entire planet-full at a certain time. Well, not particularly 'I' - but ancient and modern sages put it ~that way.
Optimists feel that we are (despite all the contrary evidence) creeping along towards more general enlightenment - - - > * Difficult to argue against this, so long as the time scale is open ended; except -
Pessimists tend to believe that *THIS* is as far as this group/time gets - at least collectively. Then these add that, because of the wildly proliferating techno- knowledge + the dearth of umm wisdom (it's apparent declining ratio to increasing dumbth): there isn't time for the creep upwards to alter enough, 'in time'. We shall find one of the proliferating EZ-suicide paths. And take it. (Much like the Atlantis myth)
IIRC a yuga is ~5000 years, though the time element is only a part of the idea and (those who work in such terms) say that this yuga is, to paraphrase, about the noisiest, most chaotic one - accordingly the kind in which the several paths to 'enlightenment' are most difficult to follow. Usually the noise wins.
(Since even the concept of 'yuga' implies someone's overall knowledge of "how it is that homo-saps always behave" - I make no case for that model; the proper solution is, never mind.)
As for "starting your own" ... the problem doesn't seem to be about 'picking some Right process', one wiser? than the recent ones - it's about the limitations of the players. I don't know of anyone who thinks a 'one' can significantly alter the awareness of the mass of humanity, though certainly affecting handful is possible.
In our time, Gandhi managed a local feat and with worldwide overtones, even.. but he had to threaten fasting to death [and he clearly meant it] more than once. He alone caused foes of multi-generations.. to actually stop killing each other, for a time. But Pakistan, Kashmir still came about because they couldn't actually Do This for long. Even via Gandhiji (as both sides affectionately called him).
Trotsky appeared to comprehend the magnitude of the task, realizing that if its proponents also comprehended that it was a timeless effort - and there were sufficient of these worldwide (?) - delay was no defeat. Obviously the Stalin axis (until there was only the One left) understood as well as did G\ufffdbbels: that the malevolent manipulation of language, slander, rumor could always confound any sincere search for 'truth', let alone Truth. It still works.
So it goes,
Ashton
289. ARGUMENT FROM COMMUNISM
1) All communists are atheists.
2) All communists are bad.
3) Therefore they are wrong.
4) The moral majority is are theists and non-communists.
5) Therefore they are good.
6) Therefore they are right.
7) This argument does so make sense!
8) Therefore, God exists.
(Thanks, Ben)
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Post #51,211
9/10/02 11:27:48 AM
9/10/02 11:34:26 AM
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A little more...
Check out Bulgakov's Heart of a Dog. You can get a brief description at this [link|http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/webdocs/webdescrips/bulgakov1572-des-.html|link]. Hey, talk about luck... it's free [link|http://www.russianfirst.com/Russia/Literature/Bulg_dogs_heart.htm|here.]I wish I could disagree with your assessment of The furvor of the original players become the target of opportunists which plays into the hands of the bureaucratic leeches. Unfortunately, I believe you have aptly described a discernable pattern. The only way for this pattern to be broken, will be a general enlightenment (as Ashton describes in his post), an enlightenment based on "learning from history" - human sociology that is sick of repeating past mistakes. It doesn't seem very likely, but there is at least a little hope. Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
J. Lennon - Working Class Hero
Edited by screamer
Sept. 10, 2002, 11:34:26 AM EDT
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Post #51,300
9/10/02 9:05:12 PM
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There is one thing I will never understand.
It may be uniquely Murican, I don't know. But of the places I've been, it seems most prevalent here. Why is it that most people have such contempt for well read, intelligent leaders. For example, one of the criticisms of Gore in the last (S)election was that "he always has to show that he is the smartest guy in the room." And how is that bad? Others may differ, but I'd put up the intellects of Ulyanov, Trotsky and Marx against all other politico-intellectuals. I'm not saying that attacks on communist philosophy are anti-intellectual. That is clearly not the case. What I'm talking about is that a "well reasoned argument" is almost utterly meaningless in any Murican political debate. When the policies of the Left are expressed, the most common argument against them, despite their intellectual rigor, is "But that's not the way things are - that won't work because people aren't like that" or some variant. Are reason and political discourse mutually exclusive? Or is that a uniquely Murican phenomenon?
It is pervasive here, otherwise no Republican could ever hold office - the overwhelming majority of voting Muricans do not benefit from policies that migrate wealth upwards. But, Muricans can and do often vote for people who will ensure that they remain members of the prolitariat, and those same folks will condemn anyone who challenges those policies.
I'm lost, but then I always have been.
bcnu,
Mikem
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Post #51,303
9/10/02 9:12:24 PM
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ya gotta be able to connect to the proles
as well as sit at the tables of the intelectual giants. I think Webster could kick some trotsky butt. Clarence Darrow. Roosevelt, Lincoln, Seneca, Chief Dan George. Al Gore was a smart dickhead who grew up in a washington hotel trying to pretend he was really a sharecropper. Thats why I didnt like him as well as many others that shared that opinion.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,306
9/10/02 9:29:17 PM
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So many of them vote for an Oil Baron?
Okay, Dubya is as dumb as most Muricans, but come on now, Dubya has more in common w/common man than Gore did? Nonsense.
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Post #51,320
9/10/02 10:45:35 PM
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whats lower than whale come lawyers and politicians
dubbya was an oil baron that puts him ahead of a lifetime politician who saught to inheret the position. Gore reminds me of othello nice guy but wrong place at wrong time.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,314
9/10/02 10:28:48 PM
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Adlai and well before..
Antiintellectualism is not just some partisan slur about Muricans, any more than is observing their suffusion with Puritan ideas about any sort of pleasure - our living contradiction with that mindset AND the unarguable preoccupation with sex, selling everything with it too (as would follow living under repression of naturalness).
Dunno about you, but I've always found these characteristics of my fellow Muricans to be a constant nagging background to every political hackphrase, each new reduction of fine principles to blab.. since I could first grok the fact of the duplicity, the deception throughout our every campaign. Even for dogcatcher.
Saying "live with it", is just the ovine response to every grating habit which the vox populi seem unable to kick. While periodically this knownothingism appears to recede (?) it's right back there, any next November.
I guess it's just the intentional suffering which comes with living amidst a group whose cohesion is largely fantasy-based, a la Disneyland and the Murican Dream (now a reg. feature of Fannie Mae - as an actual incessant ad. Even on NPR radio!). We are a large assemblage of quite disparate sub-groups. 'Unity' as expressed by W et al.. is as farcical an idea as, that oft mentioned aquatic ceremony by which Authority is transferred from one Yahoo to the next.
Maybe only some ultra-Large *Shock* could ever alter these characteristics. Best not to hope for a shock That large, though..
Ashton
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Post #51,393
9/11/02 12:05:19 PM
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May be able to shed a little light...
You write: When the policies of the Left are expressed, the most common argument against them, despite their intellectual rigor, is "But that's not the way things are - that won't work because people aren't like that" or some variant. I don't know if this holds true for the "left" in American politics, but the case with the Lennin, Trotsky and Marx seems to be appropriate. I have read many of their writings. I concur that they were extremely intelligent men. However; the flaw with the communist ideology (apart from the corruption of the central government), was that it denied greed in humans (for lack of a better word). Darwin observed "territorialism" as a trait of all animals... Humans may like to believe that they are above this trait, but I see many fences, walls and other such urine stains in all countries. Hitler's justification for grabbing absolute power was that "it is better for a million fools to be led by one brilliant man than for one brilliant man to be led by a million fools." Take a few minutes and think about it. This country was founded in direct opposition to the "right of kings". Intellectuals rarely make good politicians for they see the parody of their positions. For example, when George Bush (Sr.) was in his debates with Ross Perot and Bill Clinton, he couldn't conceal his disgust and disbelief at the kind of crap and audacity that these men were spewing. Given his resume and his long record as a public servant, he knew that the campaign promises of both of his opponents were nonsense - not possible. He came off to the public as "arrogant". Gore did the same thing. Adlai Stephenson (whom Ashton brought up in this thread) was perhaps one of the most brilliant men of the last century in the political arena. But he was unelectable. He tried. 3 times... People in a democracy don't necessarily feel that intelligence is "the" major factor, based on the last two "two termers" that we've elected. They want an equal part shaman, figurehead (baby kisser)- an actor to play president, someone who makes them "feel good". I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing either. I still will hear people talk of all the great accomplishments of Reagan and Clinton... Think about it. In a recent thread, I linked Bill to a short story by Michael Bulgakov, Heart of a Dog written in about '26 but not published in the Soviet Union until '87. I think it does more to explain the proletariat/peasant point of view in Russia than any other material I've read. Since you are interested in Russia and the communist experiment, you may wish to read this for your enjoyment. Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
J. Lennon - Working Class Hero
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Post #51,400
9/11/02 12:29:38 PM
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excellent short story, linked in reviews
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Post #51,694
9/13/02 7:10:08 PM
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You just did it again.
>> However; the flaw with the communist ideology (apart from the corruption of the
>> central government), was that it denied greed in humans (for lack of a better
>> word).
YAN variant of "that ain't the way things are". Bullshit. Greed is a LEARNED behavior. Not by accident, most commonly taught in capitalist states.
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Post #51,706
9/13/02 10:03:52 PM
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Greed is inbred and must be unlearned
fer cryin out loud you have kids, unless they are totally abnormal at the age of 18 months to 4 years they get possesive and wont share. That is not learned thats inbred. You have to teach them to share. To blame capitalism for a kid who poops his pants instead of using the toilet because he doesnt want to let go is unadulterated horseshit.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,709
9/13/02 10:20:26 PM
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Partially true IMO
That is - yes, at ~2 the kid has progressed from, "I am the whole world" through various stages, including, "I want.. I want.." (I can't find the whole metaphor just now, which lists 0 --> thru 'adult' in such stages; I think it's the simplest, testable model I ever saw re human development).
I'd slot capitalism then, as - an attitude about other people and about life, which is fixated at this infantile level. That is the place where 'nature' is kept retarded by 'nurture'. And yes, retards can reach rather hoary ages in physical years, without growing a bit. Esp. if everybody's doin it.
Take Billy, for example of this sort of retardation in growth towards adulthood.
Ashton
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Post #51,718
9/14/02 12:13:00 AM
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wrong column but it is easier to stuff a camel etc
because "insert Carlin" of STUFF. Me I have lots of stuff, the stuff I get attached to is human. That makes me an anamoly. I would happily give away all my STUFF but if you ever think you can TAKE it WW3 (and yer momma 2). That is why communism can never work, likewise capitalism. If STUFF is involved only SEX DRUGS and religion can get you to part with it. No if Marx had instituted whorehouses where volunteers only swapped sex for STUFF and local stores where you could exchange STUFF for drugs and wrapped it all in religion you would ALMOST have a going concern like ancient greece where in Sparta the practice of phalanxes was called fucking and the delphi oracle would give you a bj before telling your fortune,
what goes around comes around.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,811
9/15/02 1:55:06 PM
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Yes I have kids. And you're 180 off.
"Don't touch that! It's Daddy's; Go Play in YOUR room; That's your sister's, put it back; This is Mommy and Daddy's room and these are OUR things, not yours; etc. ad nauseum. No, not exactly those words, but you get the idea.
A child is born w/out a sense of greed. We strove to prevent saying those types of things and it was not until my oldest started preschool that she coined her own word "mys" for private ownership. We hadn't used "mine, my, yours, ours, etc." in our discourse with her, but send her to preschool with a bunch of good capitalists and the first thing she learns is "mine". Swell.
Don't buy it? Take a 1 year old and show him/her a ball or doll or toy. They look at it, they play with it. Then what happens? They hand it to you. Sure, after a time, they reach out for it - THEY WANT YOU TO BE GENEROUS LIKE THEY ARE. THEY WANT YOU TO SHARE ALSO.
We do not teach them to share, they teach us. We teach them greed. And for arguably good reason - our nation is founded upon it.
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Post #51,813
9/15/02 2:09:34 PM
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not in this house
my rule is if your not breaking it or killing youe sibling with it I wont say anything. They developed greed at about 2 and I am still working on the 10yo the 13yo gets it the 8 sort of gets it but the 4 is just like the 10 "Its mine" even if it originally belonged to someone else "Its mine now"
let me lookup some physc links it is early, practically from birth and has good reasoning from a specie survival viewpoint. The examples you gave are pretty typical of a white family though.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,818
9/15/02 3:27:43 PM
9/15/02 3:29:53 PM
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Hard to eliminate bias.
At age 2 to 4 do they honestly "lose their sense of communal ownership" or is that the age at which most capitalist parents tire - (i.e. it's easier to say "don't touch... not yours" than it is to try to explain how item X could be broken and no one would then be able to enjoy it)? I think the latter, notwithstanding psych demogougary.
edit: replace 'day' w/ 'say'
Edited by mmoffitt
Sept. 15, 2002, 03:29:53 PM EDT
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Post #51,829
9/15/02 5:35:40 PM
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I'll lookup some stuff and start a separate thread in open
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Post #51,315
9/10/02 10:30:25 PM
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video killed the radio star
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #51,321
9/10/02 10:46:47 PM
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tell that to stern rush and bbtls
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Post #51,396
9/11/02 12:24:51 PM
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Only reason they get away with it...
...is the whole "shock" factor - they get away with stuff that nobody even tried on TV, except cable, late at night.
Now that's starting to change (a little - mainly FOX and UPN) you might begin to see a drop in the popularity of shock jocks. They won't go away entirely, though - ya gotta listen to SOMETHING in the car/on the bus/while jogging...
End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
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Post #51,401
9/11/02 12:31:50 PM
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Its not shock, in the case of bbtls
his is racin rasslin football and wimmens. He noticed a long time ago that we are all little boys with a little sadistic mean streak and exploites that in volume.
thanx,
bill
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Post #51,408
9/11/02 1:21:41 PM
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Who is bbtls
-drl
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Post #51,419
9/11/02 2:05:40 PM
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link provided to bbtls
[link|http://www.btls.com/bubba_.html|bbtls]
thanx,
bill
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