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New OSX port to X86 chips by end of year?
[link|http://biz.yahoo.com/ri/020717/tech_apple_1.html|[link|http://biz.yahoo.com/ri/020717/tech_apple_1.html|http://biz.yahoo.co...apple_1.html]]

Read at the end of the article. Could have a WINTEL port of OSX by the end of the year?

I doubt it would run PowerPC code, maybe emulate the 68K environment, if not port VMAC or Ballisk II to the X86 based OSX. Apple would be smart to sell a G3 or G4 chip on a PCI card to X86 OSX users to run the PowerMac code. It would increase their marketshare. Apple could code their own WINTEL BIOS to be used with the X86 OSX system so that it only gets run on WINTEL based systems made by Apple. I am assuming they will use AMD chips?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Well, if you think Mac users are complaining now...

imagine if OS X ran on cheaper, ubiquitous x86 hardware.

Please don't give them more reasons to cry. I need the rest.

Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New It is only a possibility now
but Jobs said he would consider it at year's end when the Mac OSX conversion is done. I am assuming that they are converting more MacOS applications to OSX, and beefing up OSX and fixing major bugs?

But imagine if OSX did run on cheaper WINTEL hardware? Imagine $600USD Macs with an AMD Thunderbird chip running at 1.6Ghz? To follow Apple's usual plans, they would most likely make their own hardware, ROM, and make it so that WINTEL OSX only runs on Apple made WINTEL systems. Maybe they will use an AMI or AWARD BIOS with a special ID code in it that WINTEL OSX checks for? If it isn't found, OSX refuses to run or install. Or maybe it looks for a hardware chip that only Apple WINTEL systems will have, sort of an electronic lock/dongle chip?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New When pigs fly
Jobs will *never* give up what (little) monopoly he has. Look for him to allow 3rd party manufacturers first, and I give that about as little chance I give Sun to become a computer hardware monopoly.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
New Which is why I think
that Apple will find some way to get OSX WINTEL to only run on Apple made WINTEL systems. Either a security chip that it searches for, or a change to the ROM that only Apple has, or some other way. That way an Apple made AMD Thunderbird 1.6Ghz system for $600USD can run OSX as a Workstation, but the $600USD Linux/Lindows based system sold at Wal-Mart can't. Then all Apple needs to do is port [link|http://www.winehq.org|WINE] to the OSX WINTEL platform to run the DOS and Windows crap^D^D^D^Dstuff. Then Apple can use it to compete against Windows, Linux and other systems.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New But what about current machines?

Are we saying that PowerPC will go away completely as an OS X platform? Are PPC owners going to be further marginalized by this?

As if I didn't have enough other crap going on.....


Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New The way I see it
Apple doesn't want OSX running on any hardware that they cannot control. For current WINTEL systems there is always Darwin. But for specially made Apple WINTEL systems there is OSX WINTEL.

Apple wouldn't do it unless they had complete control over the hardware and could block access to it from other systems. So that only Apple Brand X86 systems will run it.

The reason for the X86 hardware is to build a cheaper Macintosh. With an AMD CPU and PC/ATX/FlexATX hardware Apple can build an OSX system for under $1000USD or even $600USD and compete in the Unix market against Linux, OpenBSD, Solaris, and even SCO Unix that run on cheaper hardware.

The PowerMac line would not be phased out, but I cannot see the X86 Apple systems running PowerMac code. I would imagine that Jobs needs cheap Unix workstations that also are easy to use and configure? At first they would run Darwin, until they can port the rest of OSX to it.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Let me explain it another way, Dual Citizenship!
The main product would be the PowerPC based Macs. The secondary platform would be MacX86 based. The PowerMac would not run MacX86 code and the MacX86 would not run PowerMac code, but with a switch in OSX you could compile for either platform. It would not be like the 68K Macs verses the PowerMacs, it would be a dual system support.

Apple's Benefits of the MacX86:

#1 Cheaper Hardware

#2 Less chance of a chip shortage like the PowerPC based Macs

#3 Able to dual-boot to Windows, Linux, etc.

#4 Able to run X86 NeXTStep software. At one time NeXTStep was written for Intel processors. Why abandon all that code?

#5 Apple can compete against Gateway. Dell, IBM, Compaq, and others for cheaper PC systems. The MacX86 can run the same software as the rest of them.

#6 Apple will most likely tweak the PC ROM to incude code converted from the PowerMac ROM. Maybe Quickdraw and other features will be used in the MacX86 ROM?

#7 The lower price will have Apple compete against cheapie Wal-Mart sold Linux boxes and other cheaper systems that run Linux, OpenBSD, etc.

#8 It will be sold to Unix shops that normally buy WINTEL hardware and run Unix on them as a workstation. OSX for MacX86 would give a low cost Unix Workstation that is easier to configure and install than your usual brand of Unix. All of the Unix features without a huge cost of the hardware.

#9 It would be a big boon for Pre-Installed Unix systems to have Apple sell them via the web store. So people can run Unix via OSX on X86 systems without spending a lot of money on PowerMac or more expensive systems.

#10 Apple could ultimately make a PCI expansion card to let generic PC clones run OSX, sort of like a dongle device. That way they can curb piracy and control what systems get to run OSX.

The PowerMac would not be dead, but instead this would be an alternative to a PowerMac and/or Unix/Linux/OpenBSD systems.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Still can't see the added value

Apple-only x86 hardware would still be at a premium price, due to all of the Apple mods. (Premium compared to Wintel PCs, anyway.)

UNIX shops that want Intel hardware workstations will just buy the cheapest box they can and install Linux/BSD/Solaris. I don't think Darwin is in nearly the polished condition of say, Red Hat 7.3. (And that's saying something...)

Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New Maybe I am wrong
maybe Apple wants AMD to produce PowerPC chips for another source of supplies of them besides IBM and Motorola?

Maybe Apple wants a WINTEL machine so that users can dual-boot Windows and Darwin or Linux on it? Maybe they have no real plans, but are just considering it?

Kind of reminds me of Sun workstations, one using SPARC and the other using Intel chips.

But you are right, with the Apple modifications it will cost more than a WINTEL clone. But would it still cost less than a PowerMac? Lucky Goldstar, or LG Electronics, who made the G3 iMac, also makes WINTEL clones, it would be easy for Apple to outsource the MacX86 to LG in Korea to keep the prices low. Maybe $700USD or $800USD instead of $600USD?

Of course consider the X86 based Amiga systems:

[link|http://www.computing-extreme.com/amiga/amigaxpricing.html|[link|http://www.computing-extreme.com/amiga/amigaxpricing.html|http://www.computin...pricing.html]]

They are priced a bit higher than normal WINTEL Clones, they can run Linux, Windows, AmigaOS XL, etc. Amiga decided to make X86 based Amigas to extend the life of the Amiga and to make cheaper Amiga systems. Of course the software also works on almost any modern X86 PC Clone system, not just Amiga brand ones. Does this mean that the G3/G4 AmigaOne is kaput? Not really, it is just a different standard and different system.


I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New There's no technical barrier
Darwin has been ported. Device driver support (as usual) lags though.
The NS apis (Cocoa) are extremely portable and in fact already run on top of windows to support WebObjects development on Windows. In fact, Apple builds all their stuff every week on a variety of hardware to make sure it stays portable.

But why would they cannibalize their hardware sales? If Apple were to decide to use Intel chips (ick) they would likely just use them in Apple hardware and you'd never know the difference.

I'm pretty sure they don't want to ship on Intel standard PCs for several reasons including:

1) The variation and general quality of implementation in PC land is a support nightmare requiring a vast number of engineers to work around.

2) Shipping on Intel while MS remains a proven monopoly gives MS ammunition during the penalty phase of the DOJ trial and we'd much rather have MS smacked down and de-fanged by the feds before entering the ring.

3) They'll need to figure out how to make up the missing margins on Mac hardware so Mac OS X for Intel is going to have to cost something like $600 per seat while it remains around $150 for Apple hardware.

4) Apps can be recompiled for either hardware - fat binary capability is already engineered into the app layout format. But getting app vendors to provide uniform cross platform support might be a problem.

5) Steve's fanatical about providing a great user experience and he might not feel like he can do that on the generally crummier and glitchier hardware pervasive in the PC world.

The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
New Consider this
Apple makes a special brand of Mac, one with dual processors. One PowerPC and the other X86. The system can use the X86 chip as a co-processor, or to run WINTEL code. During bootup a special key can be hit to go into "PC Mode" and boot PC operating systems natively. Under OSX the X86 chip can be used while the PowerPC chip is in "Supervisor" mode to assign tasks to the X86 chip to take the workload off the main CPU. Sort of like what the Amiga used to do. Using WINE, OSX can use the X86 chip to run DOS and Windows programs side-by-side with Mac programs. Apple even can make a virtual machine that uses the X86 chip to run X86 operating systems inside a Window of OSX. Older Macs could get a PCI card with an AMD chip on it to act as a co-processor. Sort of like those old Amiga Bridgecards, or those Orange Micro PC cards for the older Macs. Sure it would raise the price of some Macs, but it would help Apple get a better foothold into the X86 market, which is way bigger than the PowerMac market.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Why?
I don't get what this gets me. The ability to run windows? Don't want to.
The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
New What it gets
is it gets Apple into IT Shops that they normally wouldn't get into, because the new Macs can run Windows software and are virtually a PC. Many IT shops prohibit buying of Macintoshes, but if the new Mac is more like a PC, it might get accepted over the PowerMac.

It would also save Mac Users from having to buy RealPC or VirtualPC if the Mac ran Windows code natively. Even with OSX, it can get libraries added to run Linux X86 ELF binaries.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Okay, let's see if I have this straight

I'm in charge of IT in a Windows-majority shop. Our policy is not to purchase or support Macs. Now you're saying that if Apple produces an x86-based Mac which runs Windows code, I'll fall all over myself to buy that instead of a much more reasonably priced Wintel box?

Not to mention that by running Windows software, Microsoft will have Apple even more by the short-and-curlies than they do now.

Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New Sorry must be silly.
About as silly as Atari and Commodore making PC Clones. Nobody will want to buy them because of the name.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Turns out, Yahoo took Jobs out of context
he really didn't say they would use Intel or X86 chips, he did mention IBM or Motorola, and somehow Yahoo took IBM to mean Intel? Also the AMD rumors seem to have added to it. Apple may be talking to AMD to make some chips for the PowerMacs, perhaps a PowerPC clone chip?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New More on the OSX to X86 ports
[link|http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4559|http://www.theinqui...article=4559]


MACWORLD SHOWED US that Jobs is running the old migration-to-the- PC-idea up the familiar flagpole. While the eventual target for such a strategic move is the erosion of Microsoft's desktop OS market share, the nearer-term targets for Jobs' words are manufacturers and tier-one OEMs such as Dell, and HP.
Industry watchers will remember the various dual-boot wars between IBM's OS/2, and flavors of Windows - 3.1, NT and Win95. Microsoft concluded those wars victoriously, fighting tooth and nail to bury OS/2 and, aided by IBM's ham-handed support, succeeded smartly.

An X86 Mac Would Be Desirable For Many
MS scenarios analysing potential conflicts between an x86 MAC, and Windows platforms raise far different and more dangerous threats to the virtual Microsoft monopoly on desktops, than IBM ever did with OS/2. Apple, unlike IBM, knows a thing or two about ergonomics, and customer satisfaction, and poses a genuine threat that Microsoft cannot brush aside easily.

Mac OSX is also technically more desirable than Windows XP since it has welded the highly desirable Mac interface onto an extremely stable and mature unix back end. The unix kernel inside the Mac OS on a standard PC poses a threat not only from the ergonomic perspective, but also threatens the entire marketing thrust of the Microsoft operating system strategic directions, that are leading users into a spiral of more intrusive and proprietary man-machine-business interfaces.


Could it give Apple a foothold into the PC/WINTEL market? Could they go head to head against Microsoft?


Mac X86 Adoption Has Two Major Barriers
Before Apple can stand toe-to-toe with Microsoft on the corporate desktop, a deployment strategy needs to be established. Apple needs to win OEM support to deliver Mac OSX on standard PC hardware from Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, and others. But before Apple can even address deployment two lynchpin issues need resolving. Can AMD deliver hammers in volume? and... Will Dell sell AMD Hammers? If the answer to both these questions is yes, then you can bet that Mac will make a stab at the market.


The key is in getting the OEMs to pre-install OSX X86 instead of Windows XP.


The area where Apple needs significant work is in the integration/migration strategies for organizations using Exchange. Microsoft has the exchange noose around a lot of corporate necks, and it remains to be seen whether Apple chooses to fight or fit-in with Microsoft groupware strategies.


Apple still needs to develop some decent server apps, something to combat Microsoft's Backoffice. Otherwise it won't be taken seriously by most IS Departments, most of whom run NT or W2K Server on X86 Servers. With OSX X86, Apple could try and get those IS Departments to switch to their brand of software without paying extra for new hardware costs.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
     OSX port to X86 chips by end of year? - (orion) - (17)
         Well, if you think Mac users are complaining now... - (tjsinclair) - (1)
             It is only a possibility now - (orion)
         When pigs fly - (wharris2) - (6)
             Which is why I think - (orion) - (5)
                 But what about current machines? - (tjsinclair) - (4)
                     The way I see it - (orion)
                     Let me explain it another way, Dual Citizenship! - (orion) - (2)
                         Still can't see the added value - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                             Maybe I am wrong - (orion)
         There's no technical barrier - (tuberculosis)
         Consider this - (orion) - (4)
             Why? - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                 What it gets - (orion) - (2)
                     Okay, let's see if I have this straight - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                         Sorry must be silly. - (orion)
         Turns out, Yahoo took Jobs out of context - (orion)
         More on the OSX to X86 ports - (orion)

Everyone sing a song about popcorn!
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