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New Need help steelman-ing an argument RE: China's COVID response
Trump is claiming that China suppressed information about COVID - causing it to spread internationally - in order to damage the U.S. economy.

For the sake of argument I take the premise that the Chinese government will do whatever they think is in their best interest without regard for morality; does this argument make sense?

China and the U.S. aren't competitors as suppliers. Hurting U.S. manufacturing capability doesn't significantly increase their expected sales.

The U.S. is already playing catch-up in telecom standards. Letting the world see us scramble to get back into standards bodies does more damage to our reputation and leadership than anything pandemic related.

The U.S. is a large buyer, so decreased U.S. consumption hurts China in the short run, though not as much as those in favor of a trade war seem to think.

Net, I don't think hurting the U.S. helps China significantly.

The better argument for why they would want the virus to spread is similar to major online platforms supporting stricter regulation. (GDPR et al) Only the large orgs have the resources to comply, raising barriers to entry for smaller players. In the same way, if pandemic response introduces friction to international trade larger players are more able to respond, driving smaller players (eg: Viet Nam, Cambodia, etc.) out of business.

The downside is they didn't know enough, at least when the virus first started spreading, to predict what would happen. How deadly would it ultimately be? How long would it take to get it under control? Does infection prevent re-infection, leading to herd immunity?

Unless we believe that they actually did know the answers to these questions, it seems like a huge gamble to intentionally let it spread for the possible benefit of improved competitive position relative to smaller competitors once it's all over.

I'm sure there are conservative "think" tanks pumping out explanations of how China is responsible for ... something. Are any of them making any good arguments, or is it 100% ex post facto rationalization for the conclusion they started with?
--

Drew
New The person making the claim needs to back it up.
Trump is claiming ...


Occam's Razor says you can stop right there. Donnie lies about everything. His height, his weight, his health, the number of people who "attend" his rallies. Everything.

Point them to https://www.snopes.com/collections/new-coronavirus-collection/

If they don't like Snopes, they're hopeless. Life is too short...

HTH a little.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Here's the argument
China has economic competition. If China’s economy gets shut down and no one else’s does, that’s bad for China. All China has to do to prevent that is say nothing. Short term it looks bad. Long term it secures that vulnerable market share. Whether you believe it to be a bad idea or not is irrelevant. People do things that are bad ideas all the time but generally because they believe them to be in their best interest. Governments have done far worse for far less to gain. As mentioned above, many believe our own government has done the same. Are the Chinese incapable of making this sort of gambit?

We'll never get someone from the Chinese government publicly admitting to it, so the best we've got is speculation. His argument is that it makes sense for them to do it. I don't think so.
--

Drew
Expand Edited by drook June 20, 2020, 02:39:53 PM EDT
New His argument does not have to make sense
Generally my rule is not to ascribe to malice anything that which can be explained by stupidity.

Anyone is capable of anything. We don't know which among us is capable but it doesn't matter, his argument tries to argue against that general principle, then describe a scenario that someone made up in their head without any specific evidence and expect you to explain why it didn't happen.

Sounds like any religious story from hundreds of years ago that someone expects you to disprove. It's simply stupid. But at least not malice.

Don't bother.
New the only thing that I would suggest in china's favor to leak info slowly
since they are the worlds supplier of PPE they may have wanted to ensure their own supply before the rush came. Other than typical commie secrecy and unwillingness to admit a fuckup from the locals so that the rulers didnt find out until too late.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Just look at our own clusterfsck with the diagnostic tests
February: CDC sends contaminated test kits to the states and blames the mess on a reagent manufacturer. FDA refuses to approve the (German) WHO test because "not invented here".

March: CDC finally starts sending out proper kits, in such low numbers it is almost impossible to get a test done.

For the entire duration, Donnie keeps saying we have the best tests and everyone that wants one can get one.

April: report blames CDC failures to follow protocol for the initial contamination

So, because someone someplace did not want to lose face, a full month was lost outright, plus at least one more to ramp production up, while the trumpet-in-chief said everything was perfect.

If all this can happen here, why not in China?
New Dr. Larry Brilliant on Amanpour: the overall-COVID-Clusterfuck skinny.. to-date: pellucid.
PBS-clip from 6-18-20

Dr, B *IS* 'Brilliant', in that he speaks clearly (with scale/relativity) about what he professionally Knows;
has even Foretold: in a TED-talk entitled, Help Me Stop Pandemics (!) way-back(!)
["This isnt a Science-first administration" sayeth this non-histrionic fucking-Real 'expert')

Leitimotif? ..(my ∑) .. All that has occurred re COVID: devolves from the entire Anti-science mindfluff of the Menace + his zombies, from the very-Get-Go ...
said more succinctly by Dr. B in this i6-min. cut from last night's Amanpour broadcast.

(Did I mention lately? that Chistiane Amanpour has a Lot of Ed Murrow's inner-Talents, ..along with the savoir faire of Walter Cronkite) and (here) she's ON 2x daily.

Carrion.. it's blowin' in the wind now..

Ed:PS re your last? Why not? In Spades if not indeed ... after all, Xi is simply Drumpf--were his Emperor-fantasy clinched-for-Life ...
within just. a. few. gut-wrenching.. anticipatory.. months.
Expand Edited by Ashton June 19, 2020, 08:15:23 PM EDT
New The whole timeline (so far, obv.)
https://www.pbs.org/video/the-virus-what-went-wrong-mk79yu/

(Hoop jumping required. Looks like PBS has joined the Digital Restrictions Management bandwagon.)
     Need help steelman-ing an argument RE: China's COVID response - (drook) - (7)
         The person making the claim needs to back it up. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Here's the argument - (drook) - (1)
                 His argument does not have to make sense - (crazy)
         the only thing that I would suggest in china's favor to leak info slowly - (boxley)
         Just look at our own clusterfsck with the diagnostic tests - (scoenye) - (2)
             Dr. Larry Brilliant on Amanpour: the overall-COVID-Clusterfuck skinny.. to-date: pellucid. - (Ashton) - (1)
                 The whole timeline (so far, obv.) - (scoenye)

Man... licensed to kill gophers.
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